The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. I'm sure that most of the points have already been made somewhere in other threads. BUT. Have to get this off my chest. The Democratic party is FINISHED in this country, done in by the "Bush is a nazi" and "Gay marriage now" and "Not Under G-d" types. Until the Democrats can divorce themselves from the liberal left that had dominated the "debate" in this election cycle, they will continue to lose. America is a conservative country, and that's the bottom line. People's conservative values cannot be changed by political ads or campaign speeches. And there are too many conservative people in this country for a liberal party to have any chance. That's the simple equation, geography and polling leave no doubt about that. In the post-Clinton times, when a threat to traditional values is obvious, conservatives will continue to win. After 4 years of "the most incompetent administration in recent history" (John Kerry (c)), Bush has picked up 3.5 million new votes! It I'm sure looks crazy to European liberals, and it looks crazy to MoveOn.org and the Deaniacs. But until the Democratic party will continue to receive endorsements from these people, it will not win another election. Much like the Republican party had to divorce itself from the David Dukes and KKKs to survive, so a Democratic party has to divorce itself from the pinko-liberals. When Michael Moore accuses Bush of treason and the Democratic party nods in agreement, you know the party have lost touch with the country. The Democrats must ABANDON the liberal left, or it will remain a regional party and we will have Republican presidents for years to come. The Euro-style liberals must leave, go join the Greens, for example. There's a party that shares their values, why do they not support them?! No, they come and join the Democratic bandwagon, seize the wheel, and crash the whole thing into a tree.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. The Dems have to persuade about 2% of the people that voted GOP to vote Dem. Having 51% of the vote translates to 100% of the power, and that's a short term, serious problem. The big thing is the Dems have to figure out how to win the close races. Man, we're getting just killed in the Senate races decided by 2% the last two cycles. I have no "plan" for that, but the Dems would be riding high. President Gore would have just won reelection, and he'd have ~55 votes in the Senate.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. As I said in the (other thread , it is an insurmountable obstacle for the Democrats.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. I'm sorry, but the Democrats lost because they suck. Precisely because, but not entirely limited to, statements such as yours right here. You are complaining about the loss of 3.5 million votes, and you want the so-called "pinkos" to leave. That's fine, drive off the one constituency that probably does the most grass-roots G.O.T.V. work in the party. Go ahead, and see "good" you could do with out the lefty-liberals. The Democrats should be doing everything in their power to get back in touch with these groups. You guys are a bunch of wankers. I was out there campaigning for a Green party US Congress candidate yesterday, and I can't believe how nasty Dems/Kerry supporters were to us doing our work. You guys deserve what you got yesterday. I'm not at all happy that Bush won this race. But the loss couldn't have happened to a more rotten group of party "leaders." Cheers to another four years.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. You know, cutting off your nose to spite your face is still stupid.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. This post was originally in a thread about the BS Politics LIberal types, which was moved into the smack thread. I think it fits in a little better here. That's a pretty positive spin. -or- You could look at it like Carville does. Your candidates were running with the advantages of a bad economy and a bad war. You spent record amounts of money in advertising. You tried like hell to bring out your base in record numbers, and were successful. But you still lost the White House by more than you did in 2000, lost seats in House and Senate, and some governonships as well. If the party of 'have-nots' can't out do the party of the 'haves' with record turnout across the country, It's time for an honest self-assessment. The Democrats need to figure out how to be more competitive in the South and how to reclaim their dominant position among hispanics. Getting rid of the 'we're 100% right and the rest of the country is just stupid' attitude is the first step.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. Well, DK, here's the problem. The left thinks it is SOOO correct on every issue, that it simply can't understand why others -- ahem, a MAJORITY of others -- think differently. The rest of the nation is "stupid" or the other guys are "evil." They just don't get it. The fact is that this country is centrist/right on a number of issues--social, economic. Most folks could care less about whether gays have committed monogamous relationships -- it's attaching a moral imprimatur to such a relationship that seems over the top. Most believe that access to safe and legal abortions is probably OK, but are not particulary interested in making it a litmus test or the center of a political position. While there is always economic worry as a dynamic economy changes, most Americans realize they live in the land of prosperity. They know it every time they walk into a Best Buy, or look at their house value. Dire demagoguery about how bad things are rings hollow. While most Americans are willing to pay taxes to keep their country strong, they believe that lower taxes are always better. While they know that post-war Iraq has been bungled, they also know that September 11th changed everything, and that we have moved into a new and uncertain foreign policy era. They know we can't "go back" to an earlier time, where terrorism was a "nuisance." Finally, the most important reason Democrats continue to lose ground is that their party is an intellectual weakling compared to the Republicans. The conservative movement continues to win the war of ideas. The Democrats response? Sloganeering, demagoguery, the rhetoric of class warfare, contempt, condescension, the painting of the other side as somehow horrid and hideous. Until they abandon this approach, they will be consigned to the status of minority party for the forseeable future.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. Maybe so, whatever. All I'm saying is shutting out the more liberal elements of the party is inviting more mediocrity. Now I did work campaigns for the Democrats too, and a lot of my "pinko" colleagues have as well, and I find it insulting that this guy thinks we give the DFL a bad name. Pretending to be Republicans is what's giving you a bad name.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. I just knew, when I saw your name as the last post in the thread, that your post was gonna be a defense of ignorance. See, here's the thing. You're attacking us for being right. IT'S TRUE that there we didn't find any WMDs and that Iraq had no working relationship with AQ, let alone 9/11. IT'S TRUE that people who understood these objective facts overwhelmingly voted for Kerry. IT'S TRUE that many people who voted for Bush based on the war on terror are wrong about these fundamental issues. But like your boy Bush, you're not part of the reality based community. You don't dispute that Kerry did, in fact, dominate among voters who know what the hell they're talking about. You blame us for pointing that out. It's the same kind of rhetorical trick the media let Bush get away with. Kerry says something true, Bush complains that he's being attacked and denies what Kerry said, and the media don't point out, Kerry's telling the truth and Bush is a liar. You're not a deep enough thinker to realize the problem, but maybe if I point it out to you you'll get it. Is your solution for the Dems to lie like Bush does? Or is it to do a better job of getting the media to report that Bush is lying? PS...a majority of people believing XYZ doesn't affect the truth of XYZ one iota.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. I'll resist the temptation to rub it in, just this once: All the Democrats need are good candidates. I must give Kerry credit, he ran a solid campaign and came as close to winning as any Massachsetts liberal probably can. He had Ted Kennedy out there and got some mileage out of it, to me an astonishing feat. But a few tweaks and the Democrats will be back on their feet, along with the crackpots like Moore and Streisand. And in four years, my guess is that people will be really sick of dubya and the GOP and ready to vote for (gasp) even Hillary. Even if he manages to win in Iraq and the war on militant Islam. Remember who got elected right after we won the cold war? A guy who was supposed to be a disaster, with bimbo eruptions every ten minutes?
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. I don't care what kind of name you give the democrats. YOU COST THEM ELECTIONS. Now if that is fine with you, that's fine with me. But until the Democratic party endorses Michael Moore and his buddies, it will NEVER win a national election. That's a simple demographic fact. Now I understand that you would rather lose than abandon your ideas, and I respect that. But you should also realize that most of America does not at this point share liberal values. I think it may well be worth it to try to advocate and rally for those values, but don't expect to win elections on them. If the Deaniacs and the grass-roots activists of this election go and join the Greens right now, they have a chance to turn the Greens into a serious and lasting third party. I think it could be good on many levels. Firstly, it will allow the New Greens to compete and win congressional seats in many districts across the country. Secondly, it will provide more exposure to their ideas as the New Greens will be invited to debates and given media coverage. Thirdly, it will allow the Democratic party to disassociate itself from the social anti-religion liberals and go after that lower class Southern votes on its platform of moderate social conservatism, fiscal responsibility, jobs, healthcare, and economy. P.S. I voted for Cobb.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. The liberals on these boards are comical. They would rather deny reality than admit there is a growing trend to elect conservatives. The House will be controlled by Republicans for 12 years now, more Senate seats to Republicans, Bush picks up 3.5 million votes form last year even though the war in Iraq and the economy is in shambles... and they stratch their heads like Ben Reilly and Claymore and say "why is the country so stupid?". Hopefully, for their own sake, they'll realize they are in the minority when they ask such things and when they believe the left-wing propaganda and conspiracy theories that energize the base of the Democrat Party nowadays. The Democrat Party is out of touch with mainstream Americans, and if they would just get out of Chicago, Boston, and New York City just for once, they would see the cultural values that has shaped this country from the very beginning. I started a thread about the liberal narrow-mindedness that reigns in the forum in BigSoccer, but apparently someone thought they should move it here: https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3511407#post3511407
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. What it comes down to is that the Democrats don't have an "issue" The Republicans run on "family values", especially now that the neocons have taken over. It's simple, malleable, and identifies with a large majority of the country. Ever since '84, when Reagan was able to paint the "l" word as dirty and finally destroy the unions, the Dems have been adrift ideologically. and whether or not you want to believe it, the fact of the matter is the last three times they ran liberal northeastern candidates, they got slaughtered. The last two Dem presidents were from Arkansas and Georgia. The last Senator that was NOT a VP at some point to run successfully was...was...was...JFK? Whether or not you want to believe it, this country HAS shifted right since 1980 - and the Dems haven't made the corresponding changes. The question is, what to do about it? But to those who are crying about abandoning their "base", the status quo sure as hell aint working right now is it.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. BTW Karl - if this country is so center/right on economic issues, how the hell do they let Bush get away withhis runaway deficit spending/trickle down/supply side economic theory that is anything but conservative Or am I the only one who thinks that there should be a movement towards a balanced budget. Clinton at least had the sense to hammer that point home. and I'm sure the wifey will do the same thing in four years.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. It's time to turn the party over to the New Democratic Network -- the Soros-stoked millionaires and billionaires who were never part of the political process until '04 and want to build a Dem-friendly thinktank to compete with Heritage while also supporting select state and US House Rep races to build a groundswell. For them, long-term strategically, yesterday was actually a good day even if they'd agree it was bad for the Dems and the country in general. Michael Moore is not, and has never been, the problem. ACT is not the problem. MoveOn is not the problem. Republicans have thrived with their fair share of agitators who, when placed under heavy scrutiny, are easily proven to be frauds worse than Moore. If anything the Dems need better versions of Moore, plus better versions of Dean, plus better versions of dKos and Atrios and TPM, plus more from ACT (who learned a ton yesterday to use in future cycles if they don't implode -- they hit their numbers in most battleground states but the GOP did as well on GOTV, or better), plus a couple dozen more Franken / Rhodes types to keep the base energized. Today is akin to mid-November '92, when Clinton was handed both houses and Dems got far too complacent. The GOP responded not with a centrist but with Newt, who pissed the hell out of Democrats but pushed mid-term turnout high enough to retake both houses. I don't know if the Dems have their version of Newt -- we all love Obama, but he's a statesman, not a muckraker. Dems need attack dogs. Far too many Dems are fine with 2nd place and a safe House seat. I would look for NDN- and internet-backed insurgents to make some long-tenured House Dems fight in the primaries in '06. Retrenchment is what the Dems tried in the '02 midterms and it failed. Mimicry is what the Dems tried yesterday in Oklahoma and SD and Alaska and it failed. There's no other option but to let others take a different course.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. I think you are exactly wrong. It is the lack of balls within the leadership of the party, the candidate and the people who selected him in the first place that led to the loss on Tuesday. Notice that Tom Dachle is gone and Russ Feingold is still in the Senate. It is conviction, pure and simple that wins hearts and minds. I can't help but believe that Howard Dean would have kicked ass if the party would have let him. Instead they put out dry white toast. Finally, to say that Dean is a far leftist shows me that you have not taken a look at his record as Governor of Vermont and rather have listened to the spin surroundin him. This man should run the party. Terry MacAulife should be out on his ass.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. I've got your attack dogs. Rep. Bob Menendez of NJ Sen Chuck Schumer of NY Both have balls that clank
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. Schumer's too busy preparing to run for governer though. McAuliffe will be out on his ass If he's not - HRC is running in 08
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. Speaking of Michael Moore, you wouldn't know who won the election if you had to rely on his site: www.michaelmoore.com
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. I have been trying to say this for over a year now.. Most Dem's in general arent bad, some I agree with and can have an honest debate, some I disagree with, but at least they try to listen, as do I. These fringe groups do nothing to bring down the dem. party and distance more middle of the road people from it... Treat this cancer people...
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. Menendez used to be my House Rep. Let's just say that when you represent Hudson County NJ, you sometimes are better-off staying out of the limelight. Schumer's a good choice, though. Safe as houses seat, generally intelligent, firebrand, will annoy the GOP to no end.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. I'm confused. The Right in this thread are vomiting from the mouth as if Bush ran away with this thing. He did no such thing. He will win the Presidency by virtue of having won one state, Ohio, for all intents and purposes. Kerry will finish with at least 252 electoral votes. In many states the finishes were d@mn close. Bush will win the popular vote by 4 million or so, out of 114+ million total votes. Roughly 3%. To completely reverse the results of the Presidential election of 2004 the Democrats only needed a swing of 70,000 votes (give or take), in one state. That's it. This election hasn't proved anything other than the simple fact that the nation is split nearly as evenly down the middle as it is possible to be. The same situation as four years ago. So please, save your rhetoric. Your boy won, fair and square. Barely.
Re: The Democratic party must CHANGE, Moore-types must be abandoned. What he said. That said, without the true progressives, the Democrats are just Republican Lite. ******** the DNC leadership. Find issues. Define your values. Learn to ********ing communicate. But a middle finger also goes to the moderate Republicans for letting the radical right lead you by the nuts. A plague on both your houses and whatnot.