After the Celtic match, DS and other lamented about the gulf in class between the champions of England and the champions of Scotland. (Privately, DS told me that the gulf was even larger than the gulf in class between English and Scottish women.) Today, an article appeared on soccernet which echoed the sentiments (about football). It read, in part: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/column...onsleague&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos1&cc=5901 Are we on the brink of a once-proud competition becoming a formality prior to the quarter-finals? Are things only going to get worse if (anti-England) Platini gets his way and excludes teams from the larger associations in favor of undeserving minnows? Most importantly, will this take the shine off of future accomplishments in the Champions League?
Many see this period as a low ebb in the competition already with the decline of the Italian's, Germans (Bayern) and only RM and Barca flying the flag for La Liga. The 4 English clubs will expect to be in Semi's for the forseeable future and unless pitted against each other, at least two are highly likely to make it to the semi's. The destruction of Basel by Barca was an embarassment, tbh. Celtic just looked limp because of the gulf in expenditure and talent, but Basel.. they looked like they shouldn't be in this competition. It's not relative though: Cluj and Anthorsis (sp) are doing well so far as are BATE, but that's more like a fancy for the fans of bigger clubs to remain curious about until they are knocked out. The divide has been created, and it's going to keep growing. The Super League talk always seemed far off to me, but now? I do begin to wonder. A few years back we had a 'mare and didn't even get out of the group stage, but just look at what we've done and spent since then and consider how much we're making with the consant progressions in the competition. the rich get richer per the CL mandate and it guarantees equidistance. You shouldn't feel a CL group game has been anti-climatic... but apart from the direct rival for the #1 spot (this year it's villarreal) you have a certain knowing feeling about proceedings if our players bother themselves enough to take out the oppo. We should be looking to captilize, of course, but until the knockout rounds, the CL is really flat these days. Imo, of course.
I've only been a fan for a short time, but even I can remember when every Champions League match seemed like a potential banana peel for United. It didn't seem to matter who we were matched up with, each match was a tense affair. Admitedly, I probably only remember the tough matches and have conveniently forgotten about the ones we breezed through. But I never remember a time when, objectively, I was certain that passage through the group stage was only a formality.
You also have to consider the points intensity of the PL now. No other league has had an outlier come in and absolutely turn it on its head with a sustained and constant stream of money. You've had yer Lazio's come in with unsustainable outlay and pay the price, but in Chelsea, football has changed and now with the other billionaires licking their lips aiming at the PL, it's only going to get stronger, harder and more difficult to compete in. If La Liga suddenly had a team who never contended for the league come in and challenge the duopoly of you know who, it'd turn that league upside down as well, especially if a bar was set that all of a sudden those two had to match. We've changed so much since they arrived on the scene.
I'd say there is a gulf between the english teams and just about everyone. Watching all these games, the only team that seems like it could stand a chance against the big 4 is Barca, and even they would get picked apart by a defensively oriented side like chelsea. Even though I don't see more than 2 english teams reaching the semi's this year, I still think that the difference in quality is growing, and even the continential european elite seem to pale in comparison.
I don't think you can say that yet. There's 6 or 7 teams who can win it, probably one of four that will and after that you've got a lot of teams making up the numbers. It's getting to a stage where the Englis sides hope to avoid each other, but there's still a couple of others no one is going to want to face until they have to.
I am pretty sure Barca et al had no sympathy for us when Rivaldo etc. were ripping us apart. It works in cycles.
It's got absolutely nothing to do with cycles or sympathy. Besides which, it's not cyclic. This is something very different. Cyclic is the 80's, 90's and early 00's. If those countries don't get their own sugar daddy's (re)pumping them so they can compete, it won't be anything like a cycle.
The retirement of Fergie and the crushing debt make me wonder if we'll be one of the clubs on the outside looking in at some point in the near future.
The Italians had their own sugar daddies, the Eastern Europeans are getting theirs now. The only difference from previous cycles is that England now has 4 teams that could possibly won the EC.
You're missing the fundamental point. RM have been bankrolled ridiculously -relatively - for decades. It came good for them in the late 90's and 00's, but it was still a competitive competition. The same goes for the Italians at their peak there was still other clubs winning the competition. Forseeably it'll be one of the English clubs winning this thing between themselves until the others can match their methods. No other league has had random billionaires buying into it with random, unpopular or unprestigious clubs and bringing them to the forefront of the world game. It's an entirely new ball game.
The landscape has changed, but none of the european teams seem to have fully adapted to it. Watching the games you can see that they are just too old, too slow, and in most cases lack quality compared to the big 4. I'd bet on any of us beating the champions of Italy, Spain or Germany hands down. Tactically, and physically the english teams seem to be in class by themselves, and the finance gap is just widening. The speed and physique of players from England alone seems to completely overwhelm all of the european competition. The "richest" clubs in terms of spending capacity are what, Man City, Chelsea, Real Madrid, Manutd, Arsenal and soon Liverpool (when they get sold). That alone will continue to drive the gap even wider. If we end up seeing total English dominance this year, and perhaps next year I would bet my bottom dollar that UEFA/FIFA step in to rebalance things.
This is not part of the usual cycle. There are no longer any legitimate contenders coming out of Holland, Portugal, Eastern Europe or even France and Germany like we always had in the past. The fact that its always the same 4 English teams entering the Champions League also isn't helping the competition in its attempt to cling to some of its magic ...
Its true but think of recent past winners, us, ac milan and liverpool.... sure we have spent a lot, but its not down to the owners.... we spent similarly before they came.... liverpool too.... Its really only chelsea who have spent a level above.... I mean has our spending exceeded real madrids recently by that much?
As someone who isn't as familiar with the history of Serie A, what was the reason for the dominance of that league in European competitions in the early to mid-90s? Obviously they were able to afford the best players in the world, but where did the cash come from? Television, attendance, advertising, investors (i.e. sugar daddies)? It seems that as long as the Champions League involves a group stage, the teams with more money and therefore greater squad depth will simply be more likely to go deep into the competition. And injury or two to a relatively weaker club, and they're chances get scuppered. If we or Chelsea have that happen, it's a matter of putting the likes of Tevez, Giggs, Evans, or Nani on from the bench.
I can see where you're coming from, but I'd point out that we just got past Barca 0-1 over two games and it's no guarantee we'd beat them or RM if we met, but that's not what I'm getting at. I agree with you about UEFA, but in a way, I think they'd have to do something because our league is going to get tougher and tougher from top to toe with billionaire influx. It coincides with lean times both crunch and internally across Europe, which could quickly see it become a monoply if there isn't intervention.
I thought tuesdays football was fantastic, ive seen the Champions League since it started and the football and games were fantastic. Some of the most creative and inventive attacking play and excitement. I dont remeber the Champions league being any better. Allborg and Steau put up great fights despite losing in the end, Fenerbache had a lot of chances against Arsenal although they werent good enough to finish them. Roma and Juventus have both been shown up by lesser teams so far. Basel have lost every game so far they are just crap anyway. I dont see the minnows doing any worse then they always did. Reminds me of how whatever era people are in they say crime is worse, because thats what they see, if you actually go back and look at the stats there isnt much difference. The 4 English teams as a force are stronger the past 3-4 years but thats about the only difference. Everyone else has to step up just as when Spanish and Italian teams dominated.
DS, did you read by any chance Martin Samuel's excellent piece in the Times yesterday? Some smaller teams bought by random multimillionaires/billionaires in continental Europe: - Villareal Steaua Zenit BATE Cluj Panathinaikos Moratti has outspent everyone bar Chelsea. Danny transfered for 24 million pounds. There is no reason why Inter or one of the new money Eastern European teams cannot win the EC.
Exactly. But I think 'magic' isn't as poignant as the tangible disparity that's emerging. You still get 'magic' but it's only much later in the competition.
Up until 1991 there was no group stage, there were just 32 teams playing, and each country had exactly one representative. Scores like 7-0 were a common occurence in early rounds. So in order to win the competition, a top team had to win 5 games, with first few rounds being a walkthough most of the time. It was more like an FA Cup in terms of competitions. Now a top team has to play about 11 (?) games, not counting any qualifying rounds. Add that to having to play 38 games in the league, local cup comptetions, random events such as club world cup. The games add up and for top teams and players there's also a long pre-season and a bunch of international games mixed in. The more games you play, the more inferior teams you include, the more mediocre competition becomes. It's true for pretty much any sports competions. But then again - the more games you play, the more chance you have of an overall better team ending up on top. That's why you're often going to see cinderellas, especially in early rounds of cup games or tournaments (like March Madness), and rarely in longer competitions with a bigger margin for error.
No, but its the disappearence of the second and third-tier leagues that make the CL a bore compared to years past - especially the group stage. IOW, the ratio of what the top teams in the best two leagues spend compared to what, say, Ajax spends is higher today than 10 years ago. And that trend isn't going to reverse itself. This is not cyclic.
Serie A had everything. Prestige, money, global TV interest, money men at the helm, the best players in the world all wanted to go there to prove themselves and so on and so forth. In England, Channel 4 brought Serie A to our psyches at a time when English football was rubbish and we'd get to see superstars performing against the best of everything - it changed perspective here, and I'm sure it did the same all over the world where it was broadcast. Money makes money as they say. It went tits up because they run out of money and were hit by scandal, I also think the reemergence of the English and Spanish leagues forced the Italians to spend more than they could afford after a time. Have a look at the group stages for the 5 year period between 98 and 03 and tell me there's no difference. Just because you're entertained because there's lots of goals it does not mean the ability level of those in question is anything close to being balanced. When we won it in '99 we had a frightening run from start to finish.. if we won it again this term, it'd probably only be a couple of games in that bracket unless the draw was hugely stacked against us. Not read it, will do now. And there's no way any of those sides can compete with English clubs because there's no prestige or interest in those leagues to attract players on en masse. For one Danny, how many players come into the PL or pass from one club to another for over that amout? Also, factor in global appeal of the PL with TV rights and such and the point becomes almost moot.
So it's basically the same for the PL at the moment, with most of the big names. Additionally, the PL has huge popularity in the US, China, India, and Japan, among many other places. Serie A never quite penetrated there. Obviously there is a huge advantage for the PL, especially when you consider coverage on the internet plus the huge growth in satellite viewing and general television rights money. There was an interesting article in the latest FourFourTwo about the Old Firm and it pointed out that the total television money for the whole of the SPL was right around the amount of television money that Derby County got last season. Shocking, to say the least. But couldn't the same thing happen in England over the next few years? Obviously there hasn't been nearly the history of scandal that you see in a place like Italy, but when you have a number of investors coming in who may not fully understand English business customs and who have used questionable methods to make their money in the first place, it seems like a very real possibility. I know it's not the same comparison, but English teams have dominated in Europe before, and they managed to cock that up as well. Have some faith.