The Debt Ceiling Thread

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by schrutebuck, Jul 11, 2011.

  1. Chris M.

    Chris M. Member+

    Jan 18, 2002
    Chicago
    You're so full of shit.

    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

    To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

    To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;


    Congress passed a budget. They committed money and they have the power to pay those obligations.
     
  2. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    This is a quote from Ronald Reagan, from September 26, 1987.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...back-to-reagan/2011/05/14/AF0PJp3G_story.html
     
  3. That Phat Hat

    That Phat Hat Member+

    Nov 14, 2002
    Just Barely Outside the Beltway
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
  4. American Brummie

    Jun 19, 2009
    There Be Dragons Here
    Club:
    Birmingham City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LCsiWL6gn0"]‪Foghorn Leghorn Rant!‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]
     
  5. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    And the democrats were trying to paint him as an extremist, just as the republicans are trying to do to Obama. History does repeat.

    Well maybe he was an extremist on some issues, by today's standards. Times were different and society is evolving. (Even Clinton comes across as a bit of an extremist on some social issues today). But Reagan had good common sense, and I think that is also true of Obama, for the most part.
     
  6. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    At the time, as I recall, the time between raising the debt ceiling and possible default was very remote. I.e., I don't believe we've ever had a situation where potential default was a week away.
     
  7. American Brummie

    Jun 19, 2009
    There Be Dragons Here
    Club:
    Birmingham City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  8. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Yeah. I'm not sure how close to the brink they were when Reagan said they were close to the brink. But I agree that this time it's going way too far. I support reducing the debt and reducing government spending, and I certainly can understand the minority party trying to use their leverage on the issue of the debt ceiling in order to get some concessions, or even just to make a political point.

    But you can only take it so far, and it appears that they already got some reasonable concessions from the majority. If they want more, they should save it for the next battle. Now the game of chicken is going too far. Failing to raise the debt limit would be incredibly stupid. They are not going to reduce the debt by engineering the failure to meet the obligations already incurred. It would only make the situation much worse than it already is.
     
    1 person likes this.
  9. MasterShake29

    MasterShake29 Member+

    Oct 28, 2001
    Jersey City, NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think that's a fair characterization. I'm not slamming the TP here because they are (somewhat) on the right side of the issue, even if it's out of luck rather than out of principle. Obviously we'd be in a lot different place if the President was Republican at the moment. I also don't think Obama is "compromising" out of the goodness of his heart, but because that's what he thinks he can get.

    Really, I hate the players and I hate the game. :)
     
  10. MasterShake29

    MasterShake29 Member+

    Oct 28, 2001
    Jersey City, NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Congress has authorized spending above what the law allows. But they don't actually spend the money.

    If Congress can "borrow Money on the credit of the United States", then why doesn't the budget, passed by Congress, override the debt ceiling, also passed by Congress?
     
  11. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nixon already tried impounding money in the 70s and we all found out it's unconstitutional. The President has to spend what's in the budget. The budget is law.

    Is something going on in your personal life? Seriously. Cuz your posts are getting weirder and weirder week by week.
     
  12. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    The right side of what issue? Most of the 20 countries with the biggest-spending governments are safe, healthy, happy places (although yes there are some bigtime exceptions, for example Iraq and Cuba), and most of the 20 countries with the lowest-spending governments are not (again there are exceptions, for example the U.S., Hong Kong, and Costa Rica).

    I don't see any evidence that less government is better, not if we're talking slogans and principles, as the Tea Party tends to do. Now on specifics, sure there might be plenty of places where we'd want to shrink government spending. And plenty where we might want to increase, too.
     
  13. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Good question? This is precisely why many constitutional scholars believe the debt ceiling would not survive constitutional review. So you can blame the legislature for this problem twice!

    They had a debt reduction proposal that contained massive concessions from a Democratic president, but they threw it in his face over tax increases on the "job creators". Instead, they're more likely to endorse the Mitch McConnell "do nothing but make Obama look bad plan" that has absolutely zero policy consequences but gives the Republicans a political advantage (in theory). They're not even playing chicken for policy reasons - they're doing it strictly for politics. Given how important this issue is..........that's pretty irresponsible. I understand scoring points politically as the party in opposition, but throwing up your hands in horror when you get 85% of what you ask for because it's "completely unreasonable" is no way to govern a country.
    Confidence in sovereign borrowing power is a funny thing - it can tip on surprisingly small things. If the Eurozone weren't dealing with very ominous signs of trouble coming from Italy (who may have trouble rolling its debt) which threaten the whole Euro project and drive Treasury yields lower, I suspect the markets would be paying this situation a lot more attention. Hopefully, of course, this gets resolved and we move on, as is the likelihood. Until the next wholly manufactured crisis, of course :)
     
  14. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's "better" if less gvt. is the goal. That's how libertarians define "better." It's circular.

    If "better means a strong economy and a vibrant society, you're right. But libertarians don't care about that, because that means caring about other people's happiness.
     
  15. American Brummie

    Jun 19, 2009
    There Be Dragons Here
    Club:
    Birmingham City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's not true. Libertarians believe that everyone reaches their potential if there are the fewest number of barriers to success. I reckon that Timon cares very much for the welfare of other people, he just has a different way of going about it.
     
  16. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    I'm sure that he does. However, he advocates policies that are most likely harmful. Look, I have no dog in this fight, but if I go down a list of happy, healthy countries and find that most of them have big governments and people who believe in big governments, well damn there you have it. I just can't see making an argument that is so obviously refuted, and in such a major way. It's kinda like saying that the best basketball teams are full of short guys, I mean sure you can have your opinion but as an argument it's a nonstarter.
     
  17. NickyViola

    NickyViola Member+

    May 10, 2004
    Boston
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    Just curious but what countries do not "have big governments?"
     
  18. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Here are the countries on Wiki's list where the federal tax burden and government spending are both less than 20% -

    Bangladesh
    Burma
    Cambodia
    Cameroon
    Central African Republic
    Ivory Coast
    Dominican Republic
    Ethiopia
    Guinea
    Guatamala
    Haiti
    Hong Kong
    Indonesia
    Laos
    Madagascar
    Nepal
    Pakistan
    Panama
    Paraguay
    Peru
    Philippines
    Singapore
    Taiwan
    Thailand
    Togo
    Uganda

    Countries where both numbers are north of 40 -

    Austria
    Belgium
    Denmark
    France
    Germany
    Hungary
    Iceland
    Italy
    Lesotho
    Norway
    Sweden
     
  19. NickyViola

    NickyViola Member+

    May 10, 2004
    Boston
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    I would argue that, with a couple of exceptions, these countries are not places where people do not "believe in big governments" but, rather, where the governments do not (yet) have the means to be as big as they want to be.

    It should also be pointed out that a lot of the places on the list above are places where people from Western Europe expatriate to.
     
  20. Chris M.

    Chris M. Member+

    Jan 18, 2002
    Chicago
    This is simply not true. At least not true in my anecdotal experiences. Libertarians are concerned that everyone have an opportunity to reach their potential (whatever that means) without barriers, but if they don't then its on them. There is no concern for the welfare of someone provided they have the same access to the tools of success.

    I have two problems with that philosophy. First, simply removing barriers will not equal the playing field, and in fact, the certain outcome of free market capitalism is that the wealthy will always have advantages that the middle class and poor do not have.

    Second, all the libertarians I know are very intelligent, self-sufficient people and they want to basically impart those characteristics on everyone. They have trouble with the notion that someone doesn't have the aptitude to go start a company that makes widgets if they don't like their job.

    In the real world, we know that there are lots of people who slip through cracks or are wired for artistic endeavors that don't include 401ks or need assistance in a number of different ways.
     
  21. Chris M.

    Chris M. Member+

    Jan 18, 2002
    Chicago
    You watch too much of House Hunters International. :D
     
  22. NickyViola

    NickyViola Member+

    May 10, 2004
    Boston
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    I know a lot of libertarians and I've never known one to say they were anti-charity. We're anti-force.
     
  23. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Right........because they're so cheap. I wonder if more people immigrate from the 20 countries with the least government to the 20 countries with the most? I think they do...........
     
  24. NickyViola

    NickyViola Member+

    May 10, 2004
    Boston
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    lol I actually watch ZERO House Hunters International. I've just been around. My lady and I have land in Panama (she's from there and we met there more than 20 years ago) and you can't turn around without seeing an expatriate from Europe, the US or Canada.
     
  25. NickyViola

    NickyViola Member+

    May 10, 2004
    Boston
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    For money, though. Not (explicitly anyway) for happiness.
     

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