The current state of our youth national teams

There have been so many changes the last few years. Hierarchy completely revamped, closure of Bradenton and the USSF Soccer Development Pogram ending, MLS concerns in that area becoming more visible and crucial, COVID restricting play in general... I sometimes wonder if while the national youth soccer seems stagnant, maybe key changes have been made that might take time to bear fruit. (shrugs)

 

I think you should probably stop watching.

We made the U20 and U17 World Cups, and we made the knockouts and beat France in the former.

Is that repetitive failure? It's one good performance, one mediocre and one poor. And the poor was in the one most affected by players moving on up.

I'm not ever sure how this reflects a non-chalance towards winning; I think people's expectations in the level of coach or success of youth players is somewhat skewed.

It's not that this isn't a failure, but if you can't take youth teams playing inconsistently and losing on mistakes, I wouldn't want.

England failed to qualify for this Olympics and they had a much better representation than us -- Mount, Foden and others were all there.

It's youth soccer. It never looks that good.

But if you need encouragement, at some point, our A team will be so good that our U23 and U20 teams will keep some of these better players because they won't be on the A team.

 

A big thing to note is that YNT success has no correlation to senior success. Who can prove this? Mexico and Nigeria who have been among the most successful teams in the YNT world but suck at the men’s level.

What ultimately matters is how many players per age group are you developing that are at a high enough level to either contribute to or raise the level of your senior National team. Generally you get 3-4 per age group (except the lost generation who averaged 1-2). The goal is nurturing more high end talent. The YNT’s are just a distraction from this. Can we take that 3-4 player average and either raise the number or maintain the same number but make the spots be significantly more competitive? I think that is realistic based on age group trends that I’m tracking

 

My point is that our success at the U17 level will likely stagnate due to the lack of Bradenton, and the inadequate coaching assignments and the difficulty of getting players released means that the U20 level's cap is likely those Tab performances.

I'll probably still watch, but it's hard to keep getting up for these things when there's a definitive level that isn't really possible to cross for these teams. The pool can get better, but it just won't be reflected in the YNTs.

 

Walking from Bradenton does mean these teams won't have the same cohesion.

You are right ... to some extent, the youth national teams are always subject to this weird "you want to be good but not too good". It's still fun to watch, but you shouldn't take it too seriously.

I do think there will be a point where the senior team gets good enough that the U17 and U20 teams can still be pretty darn good. The Olympic Qualifiers will still be sketchy until the talent just gets overwhelming (I give it 10 years), the U17 and U20s are going to find it much harder to be senior team regulars since the Pulisics and Reynas and McKennies aren't going anywhere.

 

Brandenton was valuable from a u17 YNT performance perspective. From a youth development perspective leaving development to the professional clubs is the correct choice and is already paying off with more kids getting MLS/USL minutes and performing at younger ages and more kids moving to Europe. I’ll gladly sacrifice youth World Cup results if it means that we can have more players who can win us a real World Cup down the road

 

I maintain Bradenton was a positive, and there are also many players who don’t come from MLS or pro academies. Even if it was only for non-MLS academy players, it would be helpful. It’s also good for player exposure and U-17 results.

 

The inability to qualify for the 2020 Olympics shows our youth pool is just not as strong as most of us thought. Obviously that team wasn't our best U-23 players but even with the roster that was selected, we should still have been able to qualify for the Olympics. It basically required us to beat Costa Rica, Dom Rep, and Honduras U-23 players that mostly play in shit leagues well below the MLS. The games we did win were still very underwhelming. I am disappointed at the strength of our pool and had higher expectations for guys that can fill out rosters for our B, C and D teams.

 

I think it has to do more with player selection by the coach and his tactics then our player pool. I think this will happen with our senior team too as we are seeing some selections that are head scratchers. The talent is there, the coaching is lacking.

 

I think many of us could talk all day about this absolute failure. There are a myriad of reasons we can point to, and all are legitimate.

For me, there is one thing that I haven't seen discussed as of yet that might just be overlooked. As mentioned, the football has to be good enough and between Kreis's roster selections, match day XI selections, tactics and the players performances, there is plenty of blame to go around. All of this must get better if we want to be a player in International Football at any level.

One of the things that is just eating away at me is the lack of urgency, fight and winning mentality displayed by the staff, players and also the Federation. Our culture has always been a winning culture, but I think this has begun to slip over the past 10 years. These are kids who were brought up in leagues where standings weren't kept and many times scores weren't even posted all the way up to U14 level. These are players that were brought up in the participation trophy age and I can't help but wonder if this plays a role. Even our Manager seems to be caught up in this as evident by his post match comments last night, which were outright embarrassing.

If I want to see who scored goals, who played and what the score was in a U12 match between Bayern Munich and Schalke, I know where to go to find that. These kids in footballing countries are playing in promotion/relegation leagues starting at the U12 level, while we don't even keep standings.

We need to practice winning, and it needs to be done before the U15 level. It needs to be just as important as technique, tactics, and physical attributes. As I watched our U23s last night, something was just missing outside of the poor play we witnessed. There are going to be nights and important games where we aren't playing well or the opposing manager is set up correctly to counter our tactics. In these situations, we have to find something that allows us to get a result when its desperately needed.

I think Ochoa's error illustrates this perfectly. I like the fact that we want to teach kids how to play out of the back. We all agree that it will make them better players in the long run. However, in a match with the importance of last nights, there is absolutely nothing wrong with hitting that ball 75 meters down the field. Is it pretty, no, but serves the purpose of why we are playing. To win and to qualify.

Sorry for the rant, just some comments I wanted to throw out there.

 

I didn't find much to be impressed with from the US Youth yesterday but it is funny how a bounce here or there and we are talking about whether or not Pulisic will show up for the Olympics.

It's not as if we got run out of the stadium by Honduras. If Ochoa pulls his head out and doesn't make that dumb mistake, and Lewis can makes that finish ( that let's be honest, any good wing should make) then this is a 2-1 win and we are on the way to Tokyo ( assuming Covid variants don't shut it down).

At the end of the day are we developing more and better players than we were ten years ago, Absolutely. You know how I know? Look at the number of youth we have in Europe. We have a 19 year old at Roma, we have Weston McKennie, we have CP, we have Sargent and many, many others. 15 years ago you would be lucky to see one American on the field in EPL when Dempsey played for Fulham. Now we can watch Americans all over the TV each Sat and Sunday in Europe.

But yeah, let's keep weeping and gnashing of teeth until the next tournament.

 

I think people are overreacting. Is it disappointing? Yes. Is it unacceptable? Yes.

But the region is getting better. Honduras has been getting really good results at the youth level.

I think people look at youth/full international results and severely underestimate how having a consistent player pool and familiarity amongst the players is a huge advantage.

Kreis messed up. No sugar coating it. The roster was built to keep goals out and it couldn't generate enough goals. In some respects MLS can be blamed. MLS doesn't offer as many opportunities to young American attacking talent as it does in the midfield and defensive backlines.

I understand casting a wide net and viewing youth internationals as developmental. We are in the weird state of transition where yes we are getting better, but we aren't good enough where we can slap a roster together that hasn't played and outclass CONCACAF. Not until our best U-23 players are struggling to get looks at the full national level because our overall pool is stronger.

There is no doubt that we can field the best U-23 lineup in CONCACAF and probably one of the top ten-fifteen in the world. Hell we had 15 eligible players called up to the full national team that could have played for our U-23s. Even if we gave let's say the fringe players to the team--- de la Torre, Cappis, Palmer-Brown, and Reynolds we qualify.

Once the pool gets even better your looking at players like Richards, Musah, Reyna, Dike, and possibly even Robinson, Aaronson, etc. Essentially guys getting first team football but not penciled in every matchday would play with the youth, and guys in the latter camp maybe are blocked by talent at the senior level.

So yeah there is a lot to unpack. COVID certainly did not help us by making pretty much all European players unavailable (Llanez getting injured hurt this team significantly, the kid makes stuff happen), as well as MLS teams holding some players out.

 

I think the end of Bradenton is absolutely a positive for the U17s at this point. It made sense when the youth landscape was really ragged, but not when we have professional academies that, while still works in progress, provide an environment and opportunity that are miles better than what use to exist.

If you were to re-establish Bradenton today, you'd be:

1) Making selections at age 15 and probably not evolving enough by age 17 because of the commitment made to the players who uprooted themselves

2) Taking players away from the influences that made them good in the first place and hoping that the USSF U17 manager is as good a developer (dicey)

3) Taking away the players' opportunity to challenge themselves by playing up with the U19s/USL team/etc, or participating in first team training against senior pros.

4) Playing an endless series of friendlies of uneven quality and consistency.


The time for Bradenton has come and gone.

 

This is basically my feeling.

Youth national teams are a means to an end, not an end unto themselves.
Our domestic programs (both MLS and non-MLS) are churning out prospects at an unprecedented pace that big Euro clubs want.
That's really what is important.

So if we're developing the youth players, but they're not playing with the U19s, U20s, or U23s..............who cares?
The goal is qualification and then performance at the World Cup.
That's the top of the pyramid. [Actually, let's be honest. The Champions League is the top of the football pyramid these days.] So if our top 30 U23s don't even play with the U23s (which isn't actually far from the case this cycle), that's OK. We don't have to win U23 national team games in order to achieve the real goal.

The state of youth soccer in this country is great. Improving every year. And by the way, that's after failing to qualify for the last Olympics and last World Cup. People do realize that USMNTers are still in contention this year to win the Premier League, Bundesliga, La Liga, and Ligue 1. Right? We've fallen out of the running in Serie A, unfortunately. Oh, we can still also win the Champions League. This after having a U23 score in the final last year. The damn final!

 

I think a lot of the disappointment comes from how competitive we could have been at the Olympics. And I'll be honest I think people are underrating what a Gold Medal or run to the final could have done for US Soccer. It would have built way more hype for the 2022 World Cup than a Gold Cup win. Casual eyeballs won't be on the Gold Cup...AT ALL.

Additionally our core is so young that playing against inferior competition (U-23's) would have had a unique to this Olympics effect at perhaps letting the team gel more and make it easier to play Berhalter ball without sacrificing results like what might happen at the Gold Cup.

Just some food for thought.

 

Of course that's the reason for disappointment. I'm incredibly disappointed. I love the Olympics and I think we could have a good showing.

But much like the loss at Couva, using it as a general referendum on player development by US Soccer, by MLS and literally the entire culture of the United States is insane. A huge number of people wanted to blow everything up then -- and when people pointed out that logically that attacking the DA and player development was incorrect, people shouted back that these are "excuses" and the reason why we fail is because "we don't have high enough standards."

Instead, an honest evaluation is needed and specific changes to actual causes are what we should do.

Much as these players are professionals and need to take the L when they fail, we are all adults, and should really not react at this level just because something didn't go our way.

It sucks. I would have LOVED an Olympic run. It doesn't mean that the development system or MLS is a disaster or something. Root cause analysis are not "excuses" because people are mad.

 

In fact, one can also say that sports is sports.................one team wins and one team loses.
There's no crying in soccer.

Of course we do an analysis of what we could have done better. Of course.
The fact remains that the real US U23 team is below. And by the way, I didn't find room for Musah, Aaronson, Hoppe, Reynolds, Cannon, Palmer-Brown, Carter-Vickers, and many others in my starting XI in that formation. I'll have to figure out my new formation to start Musah. Maybe I'll do what Gregg did yesterday.

--------------------Sargent-----------------
Pulisic---------Reyna---------Weah--
---------Adams------McKennie---
Robinson-McKenzie-Richards-Dest
-------------------Ochoa-------------------

Seriously folks, stop over-reacting. What we saw in this event was our "B" (at best) U23 team beat a full strength Costa Rica U23 team and lose by one goal to close-to-full U23 teams from Honduras and Mexico. I walk away not feeling disappointed or angry, but content. Cuz I know what we have with our "best" U23 team. And I know the young talent train ain't stopping. That the assembly line is firing and there's a lot more talent on the way.

 

Truly a man after my own heart. One of the reasons I most enjoy watching the US Women’s team play is their absolute ruthlessness to win. Julie Ertz and Carli Lloyd will NEVER look disinterested in winning when they have the national team shirt on.

When I’m coaching, I always point out that winning is a habit and so is losing. As much as that sounds cliche, it really is a mindset. We used to have the psychology but not the technique. Now it seems the other way around. Where is Clint Mathis when you need him?

 

Honestly, the Oly's are passe for me and have been for many year unless I want to see the fastest 100M in the world or swimming for the one time in several years. It's just not what it was for me. Move along. WC matters.

 

Like literally everything you’re spot on with this

It wasn’t this Olympics team who disappointed me with a lack of effort in crunch time. The lack of effort from our u17’s in the 2019 World Cup was the truly disheartening one for me. Literally none of them except Bryang Kayo (who for some reason was benched most of the tournament???) kicked it into extra gear. Gio Reyna still doesn’t even show that extra desperation mode in games now which I can’t believe Dortmund hasn’t forced out of him it

 

In the "old days", US teams were technically and tactically weak (with some exceptions), but they were physical and psychologically strong. At the youth level, we obsessed over athleticism to the exclusion of other components of the game, and prioritized winning over development.

In correcting these flaws, I think it's fair to say that there has been a degree of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The solution to an obsessive fixation on athleticism is not to disregard athleticism. The solution to winning-over-development is not to stop caring about winning.

TBF, I did think this U23 team showed some fight in the end. More than we saw from the USMNT in Couva, at least, though I suppose that's not a high bar If they had gotten a few breaks, they could have equalized or even won. But they just weren't good enough as individuals or as a collective to give themselves a margin of error that you often need in a tough game like this.

 

I agree. In the end there is a lack of pragmatism baked into the systemic approach the USSF is taking. The USA U20 team that beat France was pragmatic. It had players who were willing to attack at every opportunity like Pomykal and Ledezma. I didn’t see it with this team.

I did see it with Honduras. They were actually quite good at creating chances in transition and turning defense into offense.

 

The irony of point to that game is that, of course, we only played that lineup against France because we collected four yellow cards in the prior match against Qatar, including one each by every central midfielder.

Durkin and Mendez, two more skilled but slower central mids, were out for 2 yellows (they had gotten them versus Ukraine as well), and so we rolled with Ledezma, Pomykal and Servania.

In the next game, the midfield was back to Durkin, Mendez (and Pomykal, since Servania had been playing a lot) and we lost to Ecuador.

Note that NONE of the midfielders who played against France were available for Olympic Qualifying

Note also that we beat Qatar 1-0, but Ochoa almost gave a goal away in that game, too, and Weah scored the game-winner by forcing a turnover in the press.

That team had SOOOOO much more talent than this team or Wicky's U23 team, but Tab is a genius on here and Kreis and Wicky suck.

(I find the Tab worship weird, since he also seemed to love highly skilled, low athleticism guys that everyone seems to hate.)

I don't really know that any of these coaches were the key point here.

 

Tab’s reputation has been a roller coaster. It’s hard to exaggerate the extent to which he was an object of derision circa 2013.

 

Mexico has been to the second round of the last 7 World Cups. The only country with a longer streak is Brazil. Their average finish is 12.5, so they are in the top 40% of teams who qualify for the WC. They are not a threat to win it, but they are far from "suck". They are consistently good, but not great. They are close to the best of the non-elite/second tier teams over any longer period of time (thus excepting the one-hit wonder/golden generations like Turkey, Bulgaria, S. Korea)