The current state of our youth national teams

Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by xbhaskarx, Jan 17, 2019.

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  1. don Lamb

    don Lamb Member+

    mine
    United States
    Aug 31, 2017
    You are making a semantic argument that is sending us away from the actual topic. The youth national team program is very important. I think we both agree on that. We are basically saying the same thing even though you are arguing it -- player development is more important than wins and losses at the youth level. I agree that it is also wrong to completely separate development and results, which is where my statement that youth results are meaningless can certainly be quibbled with semantically.

    More to the topic, you reference "criticisms of youth development experts" that I am ignoring. I simply disagree that there is corruption at USSF, and I can understand why they want to implement things like having everyone in the same office in the same city. I don't think it is a sign of incompetence when coaches are not hired until they are actually needed -- even if there is a more ideal situation. Just trying to add some perspective to the perpetual outrage with USSF.
     
  2. Eighteen Alpha

    Eighteen Alpha Member+

    Aug 17, 2016
    Club:
    Stoke City FC
    #702 Eighteen Alpha, Jan 10, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
    Fair post and thanks for the clarification.

    There is a spectrum comprising absolutely competent (let’s say Germany for argument’s sake) and incompetent.
    I - and I would assume most on here who disagree with you - are not happy where we currently fall on the spectrum.

    The same goes for corruption. It can take many forms. IMO, the biggest issues with the Fed are the appearance of nepotism, and the clear conflicts of interest with the professional league. Again, though we might not be Blatter corrupt, I’m not happy where we fall on the spectrum. And I really only give a shit to the extent that it impacts play on the field and player development which I think it undoubtedly does.
     
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  3. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Are you really so ignorant of reality?

    There were tons of posters who pointed out evidence on Carelton that you dismissed because you're enamored with his ball skills:

    - he couldn't get any meaningful time for an MLS team
    - multiple coaches stated he had disciplinary problems
    - he was suspended for the championship and the parade
    - teammates called him out
    - his USL performances did not show that he was far above that level

    Despite all this info which all came out at least a year ago, you stated that he would be Best XI this year!

    Again, it's fine to be a huge fan and to love his skills. Just be self-aware enough that it's based upon your hopes and not evidence.

    Let me flip it around - what evidence do you have other than just looking at a highlight reel?
     
  4. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    C'mon. I put together a whole plus/minus list that is more comprehensive than the one you provided. I'm happy to engage on that but i think @Eighteen Alpha nailed it - you seem to be saying that any evidence of basic compentence is justification that the USSF performance is good enough.

    For example, how much competence is required to get a World Cup in North America? It one of the major continents in the continental rotation that was instituted....

    2022 Qatar (this is an accomplishment for Qatar/Asia. I wonder how they did it...)
    2018 Russia (Europe continent)
    2014 Brazil (south America continent)
    2010 South Africa (African continent)
    2006 Germany (Europe continent)
    2002 South Korea / Japan (Asian continent)
    1998 France (Europe)
    1994 USA (North America)

    So, according to the rules, the World Cup could not go back to countries in the last two continents for 2026, thereby takig out Asia and Europe, leaving only North America, South America and Africa as possibilities. Given that South America had the 2014 and Africa had 2010 while North America hasn't hosted for 8 cycles in 1994, it doesn't take a lot of common sense to see where it was going.

    It still had to get done but to call it a significant achievement is pushing it.

    ps, this is how one can use fact/evidence rather than "he's better!"
     
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  5. don Lamb

    don Lamb Member+

    mine
    United States
    Aug 31, 2017
    My opinion of Carleton's ability is not based on highlight reels. I've watched him play dozens of times. He succeeded at every level for several years consecutively, and despite everything you say, he is still only 19. My starting 11 projection was based off of a 12-18 month projection (we still haven't even reached the 12 month mark of that), and it is as much an indictment of our wingers as it is a vote of confidence in Carleton. I was wrong and AC had a horrible season. He ended with a string of nice performances in USL, so we'll see if he gets another shot with ATL. I don't project him with the senior team any more, but I think it is possible he puts himself in the Olympic squad discussion.
     
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  6. don Lamb

    don Lamb Member+

    mine
    United States
    Aug 31, 2017
    So where is the evidence that USSF is mired in nepotism -- just two brothers work together, that doesn't equal nepotism.

    Where is the evidence that the youth teams are falling apart because USSF can't get coaches to come to Chicago?

    Where is the evidence that the women's game is in shambles -- lawsuits that are not going anywhere do not prove anything.

    Where is the evidence that USSF is inept when it comes to dual-nationals? We have tons listed on rosters (including a huge get in Dest) and haven't lost any in since Jonathan Gonzalez, who only left after he wasn't chosen ahead of some players who actually do seem better than him based on how their careers have gotten started.

    Where is all of this evidence??
     
  7. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    hiring the brother of a senior executive Under a process where they didn’t conduct a broad search even though they had over a year is evidence of nepotism. Cmon - you don’t understand the difference between evidence and proof?


    We had no youth coaches across both mens and women’s teams at all. When has that ever happened in any sport? It’s crazy to say that there’s nothing wrong with this.

    the USSF is getting sued by its players and one doesn’t have to look far to get reports of how badly the playing conditions.

    http://www.bcgavel.com/2018/10/11/pay-disparity-and-poor-conditions-in-the-nwsl/

    more to follow....
     
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  8. Tactical Hipster

    Dec 23, 2014
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There is a new men's GM, Brian McBride. I really like him and everything I've read about him is good, but then again he doesn't really have any GM-esque experience so we shall see how it goes.

     
  9. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Interesting. No one can accuse McBride of not caring. Hopefully he'll sand of some of the rough edges and steer Ernie and Gregg into a better direction even if that just means being more transparent. So do the woman have an equivalent to him?
     
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  10. don Lamb

    don Lamb Member+

    mine
    United States
    Aug 31, 2017
    [channeling my inner @TimB4Last ]

    Wambach is a fairly obvious like-for-like comparison to McBride. I'm not sure if she's GM material....
     
  11. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    The women have Kate Markgraf, also a former player without managerial experience, as their General Manager. She was on the 1999 WC champion team, and (like McBride) she seems like a solid choice.
     
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  12. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    We lost efrain Alvarez as well and there have been a lot of comments about how the USSF doesn’t treat Mexican-American families in a way that they find welcoming. We haven’t sent out a Spanish tweet in over a year and refused to even interview certain high quality Latino coaching candidates due to their language skills.

    the “some of my best friends are _______” line is one of the most cliched (and wrong) defenses from biased people. Similarly, holding two types of people to different standards is still wrong even if some of the biased against type exceed even the higher threshold.
     
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  13. dougtee

    dougtee Member+

    Feb 7, 2007
    imagine the good will mcbride could engender just saying he was committed to learning spanish. maybe he’s already fluent i dunno. it just takes the smallest effort to be open which is why this is all so frustrating
     
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  14. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich Member+

    Jul 11, 2006
    Don't throw your back out baby. Life as an Ottoman I'm told is ha(r)shish.
     
  15. David Kerr

    David Kerr Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you think it was USSF was at fault for losing Efra you are an idiot. Efra consistently broke rules at ynt camps and got kicked out and responded by switching to Mexico. If you’re acting out a camp and get sent home to learn how to act like a professional the worst demonstration of character you can have is switching teams. Efra is someone who plays every day and yet can’t last a full 90. He does not have the athleticism or the grit to make it at a higher level than MLS. It is time to forget about him.
     
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  16. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sure, but some could accuse Brian McBride of not being qualified. The previous GM hire, aka the guy who already got promoted for some reason and is making this one, was Earnie Stewart, who had front office experience with both AZ and Philly, and decent success at both.
    McBride, as much as we all love him, comes over from being a talking head on ESPNFC and... how do I say this diplomatically... is not exactly known for his brilliant soccer analysis... at least he's a nice guy and widely loved by the fanbase but should that be the criteria?

    Were there no candidates with experience in similar positions?
    What will the defenders of Anthony "17% win percentage in MLS" Hudson's hiring based on his prior experience say about that? :eek:
     
  17. don Lamb

    don Lamb Member+

    mine
    United States
    Aug 31, 2017
    Are you really calling on people to defend USSF's hiring of Brian McBride?
     
  18. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think that people have a point that McBride isn't experienced in this job but we also don't know exactly what his job is and I think that one thing he does bring that is needed is a fiery passion. If he's about creating culture and dealing with young players hopefully that passion drips off him onto them. Add the passion he and others used to bring to the improved technical ability the young players are showing and that is a real improvement. They need both.
     
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  19. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #719 xbhaskarx, Jan 13, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
    Passion, culture, passion... I thought McBride’s job was GM of the USMNT? As in, the same GM job Earnie Stewart held until recently? Am I mistaken in that?
    Is McBride supposed to be more like Frankie Hejduk for the Columbus Crew, hyping up the fans, dancing, partying, and smashing beer cans on his forehead? Not sure straight laced McBride is ideal for that role either but if it’s useless crap I don’t mind the hire, as “loved by fans, loyal to the team” would be more important than “actual front office experience”...

    But seriously, would anyone who has listened to McBride’s soccer analysis put him in the top 5-10% of current and former USMNTers in terms of his intelligence? He’s not exactly Reyna or Bradley.

    Just sticking to “Mc____” names, if they got Dax “willing to live in Chicago” McCarty to retire and hired him, I would complain less about lack of prior experience...
     
  20. don Lamb

    don Lamb Member+

    mine
    United States
    Aug 31, 2017
    Are you under the impression that a club GM would operate in the same way that an FA GM would operate?

    With Berhalter obviously leading the way with the tactics, why would it be necessary for McBride to be a tactical mastermind? He has surely played at high enough level and been around the game long enough (even recently as an analyst) to be able to understand what Berhalter's plan and player profiles look like.
     
  21. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Yes, you are somewhat mistaken in that. Earnie's job description was very loose coming in, but the scope of the jobs are different, even if the names are the same.

    I think it's easier to think of it like this:
    • Earnie Stewart is hired, likely to be over the USMNT and the USYNT as well as give input into things like youth league rules, requirements, training, etc.
    • However, Tab Ramos is the Youth Technical Director and the U20 World Cup is coming up. Either Ramos doesn't want to take a technical demotion (reporting to Earnie) or Earnie wants his own guy; we will likely not know until someone's memoirs come out.
    • Once Ramos leaves, Earnie takes the job he was original intended to do -- lead both the USMNT, USWNT and USYNTs as technical director. People bill this as a promotion, and it is in name, but it's likely the job he was intended to have from the start. (Except the incorporating the Women; not sure about that).
    • This job is now too big for one person -- and it really is. Whether Earnie realized this through doing the work or always intended it, I don't know. But the Women's GM and the Men's GM were created in order to take on some of the things that Earnie couldn't get to -- and likely didn't want to do, and isn't good at.
    People think of this as bloat; I just see an organization getting the headcount it likely needs. Yes, the titles are inflated, but it's a non-profit, what do you expect? All non-profit titles are inflated.

    Cordeiro's really big campaign push -- and why he got support from the players -- was to put soccer people in charge of the soccer work. Gulati and Flynn an dJay Berhalter intervened in areas they really didn't know a ton about.

    People claim Cordeiro is just building a way to deflect blame. But really, he's doing what US Soccer needed years ago -- we now have soccer people, working full time, running the National Team side of the house.

    You can disagree that these are the WRONG soccer people, and maybe they are, but I can't figure out why people think it would be better having a National Team coach trying to do all this and reporting into the business-driven CEO like the old days.
     
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  22. David Kerr

    David Kerr Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The big thing for McBride is his responsibility in hiring/firing coaches. He is now final say on if a coach is fired and not stewart/berhalters.
     
  23. Tactical Hipster

    Dec 23, 2014
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Also from the conference call:



    I quite like the idea of Brian McBride calling young Dual-Nationals to keep up with them and show interest.
     
  24. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
     
  25. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hopefully he also gets other current and former USMNTers to help with that (eg Donovan, Pulisic, Herc Gomez)...
     

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