The Containment Unit: The YA League Comparison Discussion

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by Testudo, Sep 21, 2014.

  1. I've been watching mls games occasionally for years, as these are free on my cable at Eurosport and FoxSport.
    What is very striking as a difference first is the poor tactical quality of the play in mls.
    Although our second tier is more physical than the Eredivisie, I noticed the mls teams play far more physical than our second tier. So if Mendez can't cope with KKD level of play it only would mean he's not equipped for Dutch/Euro football, but could be well fitting into mls style of play.
    As such the presumption mls players would dominate in the Dutch KKD league is wrong. Now and in the past. Some players would, but these are the ones with good tactical awarenes.
     
    Dizi repped this.
  2. I would like to point to Dest Young Ajax team mate Mitchel Bakker, who by Ajax was put on the Young team bench very often. Not good enough for Young Ajax as a regular, but now playing in PSG first team less than a year later.

    Within a year from the bench of the Dutch second tier league into the CL selection of PSG, that spends hundreds of millions on players.

    Dest also never dominated the play in our KKD league, but is now a player on top clubs radar.

    When mls just emulates the number of superstars that came from our second tier the US-Mex rivalry thread would explode. It can't. Mls still has to come up with a superstar that does make a difference for the top teams.
    And no, Pulisic isnot a superstar as he hasnot (yet) been the determining player in important matches for any of the teams he played for.
     
  3. justinpaul10

    justinpaul10 Member+

    Sep 2, 2013
    What are you even talking about? Last sentence, factually is ridiculous at least. Determining player - like the one who scores a goal and/or was the MOTM and influenced the result the most? If it’s the first, we can go back to Dortmund v Benefica and the winning chip in the round of 16, or game winning moments like v Hoffenheim or if you are saying he has to be in the best player in the game we can go the win v Manchester City, etc.

    I agree that is not world class, but he is a superstar by most definitions at least and your test for being a “superstar” can be accomplished by basically in player in any league in the world. By your definition Andrew Carleton is a superstar for his dope ass flick and cross in USL the other night.

    Also, I like your knowledge of the Dutch leagues but you are ridiculously bias about the quality of your leagues from top to bottom. Nobody really makes too big of a deal about it because you’ll clearly die on any Dutch football hill for any reason but seriously, come on.

    Quick hitters

    I found @largegarlic take much more informative than what you just posted.

    I have no idea who you tied Pulisic into an MLS discussion.

    “When mls just emulates the number of superstars that came from our second tier the US-Mex rivalry thread would explode”. What does this quote even mean?
     
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  4. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I dont think it impossible to say he is way ahead. I've watched them play and can see that Ledezma is much better in many important areas of the game.... first touch, combining with teammates, final ball, movement off the ball, reading the game, etc.

    Why are we not talking about Ajax? That is where Mendez plays.

    I'm not talking about academies. I am talking about 18+ year olds. In the case of Mendez and de Jong, they were players who werent ready for the first team. Jong Ajax appears to do a very good job of helping players improve so they can be promoted to the first team or go elsewhere to have a good career. I dont know why you would think Mendez should move away from here for first team minutes when he clearly wasn't above this level last season. For his current level, this seems to be about as ideal of a place for him that there is.

    I didnt say they produced and already stated that I pulled numbers from transfermarkt. It would probably easier to just correct the numbers from transfermarkt than telling me I am wrong again.
     
  5. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    The tactical difference is extremely obvious. It can be seen clearly for Jong PSV and Philadelpghia by watching the highlights of Ledezma and Aaronson on the previous page. There is much more "structure" in the PSV attack and many more players are involved.

    I dont think Mendez is well suited for MLS. Mendez is a smart, technical player with some physical limitations. Unfortunately, he would struggle with the physicality at this point. That doesnt mean he couldnt be dominant in the league in the future.
     
  6. Nope, I am very aware of the gap between my league and the top 5 leagues. I'm also very aware of what sets us apart from other leagues, like mls, Belgian/German etc. , positively or negatively .
    You're right I wrongly linked mls and Pulisic, as his development was at Borussia.
    My point about superstars is you become one when you, facing clubs with top calibre players, are essential in the club's progressing at the cost of those clubs and being essential in the team's performance, in the league or in European contests, against other top teams. Not only there, but also in the national team.
    There are many Dutch players who contributed a few times to their clubs progress, but only as a fluke flare up, not as a consistent trait. So those Dutch I donot call superstars, nor do I call foreign players with likewise performance histories superstars. Stars yes, but not superstars.
     
  7. This is what puzzles me, as there are enough players from leagues with a very good tactical understanding with coaches who know their tactical stuff. So how that translate into matches with either poor tactical preparation or poor excution of it is quite extraordinary. Especially when one sees other American sports that have high calibre tactical play exhibiting.
     
  8. dougtee

    dougtee Member+

    Feb 7, 2007
    we have imported a lot of dutch coaches who have not really brought any kind of tactical nous to their sides too. de boers tactical focus for instance succeeded in making his team play like garbage.
     
  9. Well, my observations go well before any Dutch coach came into the league, so they then blended in perfectly.
    Ajax fans were happy he left, despite him giving them 4 titles after an 8 year drought with boaring U turn football.
    Frank, as other former superstars as coach, suffers from a cognitive bias by supposing what is normal basic luggage for a player like him is also the luggage available to less gifted players. It's not and you end up with a coach not in sync with the level of the player group.
     
  10. Anyway, my observation was that coaches and players that have proven to be able to play sophisticated tactical football are there in mls, yet it doesnot translate into tactical high standard matches. The question is why?
     
  11. wynaldaisagod

    wynaldaisagod Member

    Ajax
    United States
    Aug 9, 2019
    This + it's as simple as seeing where Dutch 2nd division players play in the US and how players from GOOD Eredivisie teams have come to MLS and been average players. PSV/Ajax are at another level from MLS. No one is denying that. But once you get past them... there isn't much of a difference.

    There's also the whole "track record" thing... Sure in the past the Netherlands has produced far more players than MLS. They've been doing it many, many more years and MLS hasn't developed talent like they should. But that is changing. MLS and their academies are in their infancy. U-20 players are starting to get way more minutes: http://www.americansoccernow.com/articles/play-your-kids-a-look-at-where-the-movement-stands-in-2019
     
  12. I wonder if you watch that much Eredivisie matches except the Ajax ones. For instance last ending team RKC Waalwijk is far ahead in tactical quality play then whatever I saw from mls matches.
    Maybe you donot know it but Franz Beckenbauer once said that when he could watch a Dutch soccermatch, no matter what level, and he had the time to watch it he would, just to see what and how the tactical play would be. In his eyes Dutch matches are always fun from a tactical pov. Doesnot mean it couldnot be boaring as hell to watch from a normal entertaing pov.
    Klopp said about that, when asked about a weird position (in the eyes of the asker) for Wijnaldum, that Gini is a Dutch footballer, so tactically fully capable of tactically adjusting to his tasks. Klopp, just like other German coaches, simply go from the premise Dutch footballers are tactically well trained players.
    Dutch footballers are notorious under foreign coaches as they always are asking why when the coach puts on the table a tactical plan for a match. They expect the coach to not just put on the table a tactical plan, but also why he has that idea.
     
  13. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I think it is a complicated issue and dont have the answer. I do believe there are many things that contribute.

    - Young American players aren't tactically sound
    - The range of talent (and tactical understanding) is so large it likely difficult to get the whole team on the same page.
    - it would take time and people arent patient enough and need results (physicality can beat them while figuring it out)
    - The coaches get frustrated by all of this and cant communicate what they want.

    I'd think that teams would have to focus on it with their academies, then USL side, and eventually the first team. This leaves a small number of clubs like FCD, NYRB, etc who are committed to developing players.
     
  14. wynaldaisagod

    wynaldaisagod Member

    Ajax
    United States
    Aug 9, 2019
    Again... We can talk track recods, Beckenbauer, etc. or we can talk about the actual present. I don't want to turn this into a MLS-Eredivisie competition but just looking at San Jose:

    Vako-- above average player for Vitesse, same for SJ
    Hoesen-- came through Ajax, striking rate the same for SJ as Groningen
    Kashia-- LESS of a starter in MLS than for Vitesse.

    I can provide a lot more examples (Siem de Jong coming on late for Ajax in crucial CL matches then is average for FCC) but the truth is outside of Ajax/PSV elite players, there is not a huge difference in quality of players. Tactically, Eredivisie is ahead of MLS although Frank de Boer won 4 straight titles then was a huge flop in MLS.

    Correct. Ajax has 43% of the Netherlands coefficient points. Without Ajax, the Eredivisie is below Cyprus and other not so big leagues on the UEFA ranks. Outside of PSV, Ajax, AZ, Feynoord (when they've got it together), maybe Utrecht/Vitesse, it's a bad league. The bottom 1/3 especially are just awful. I am hopeful it seems like Willem II and Groningen are serious about raising their level.

    But the truth about the Eredivisie is Ajax is single-handily holding up the league. AZ has a special group and hopefully will be good in Europe again. PSV has a special group coming through too and Groningen with Robben seems like they're trying. But it's total myth to say the middle/bottom of the Eredivisie is better than MLS.
     
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  15. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    I probably shouldn't wade into this one, and I'm not sure this is a good analogy, but I wonder how well modern man would do if he were abruptly transplanted back into the Stone Age.
     
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  16. dougtee

    dougtee Member+

    Feb 7, 2007
    hmmm sounds like you are looking for an inverse unfrozen caveman lawyer situation
     
  17. Could this be the case because these players join the mls at the end of their career, like going into a retirement league, while the Dutch second tier is the league for ascending players?
    There are exceptions with players not at the end of their careers, but you're not going to mention them as these donot fit your purpose.
    I posted in the relevant thread of the mls clubs that I was amazed of a Dutch player chosing for an mls club while being good enough for a good team playing in the Europa league. And guess what. These Dutch players were outstanding in the recent mls matches I watched.
    To prove your point with a subjective and fitting to your premise selection of players isnot good.
    By the way, if one has spent his whole life in well organized tactical play in a Dutch club and end up in a team where that is out of the window, the chances you're lost are great donot you think?
     
  18. gruenweiss87

    gruenweiss87 Member

    Werder Bremen
    Germany
    Sep 9, 2018
    Very funny. If that's true then we could just sell all current players, by the MLS' top team's players and still make a €30 million profit.

    My guess is that MLS midlevel teams are closer to teams like LASK, Groningen, or St.Pauli.
     
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  19. LouisZ

    LouisZ Member+

    Oct 14, 2010
    Southern California-USA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You can only sell what people are willing to buy ;)

    My point is the way Bremen is playing is not necessarily the player's selling worth.

    When Bremen give up goals because of mistakes, it shows the level of their play.
     
  20. FC Tallavana

    FC Tallavana Member+

    Jul 1, 2004
    I think you’re being kind to MLS. Rapid expansion has watered down their product.
     
  21. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Yeah, that's wrong.

    The product being watered down only makes sense if there's a limited pool of players, like in baseball or football. That's not a problem in soccer. MLS has grown a ton in quality in recent years, and a post like the one you just made only tells me that you don't watch it.

    That's fine, but don't pretend to be an expert.
     
  22. Jazzy Altidore

    Jazzy Altidore Member+

    Sep 2, 2009
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, there is a roster requirement for having a certain number of American players so that pool is limited in a sense, although the academies have been doing a better job of creating players to fill those roles.

    That being said I haven't been watching MLS at all. The galaxy suck and I'm getting plenty of my footie fix from all the stud yanks in Europe.
     
  23. glutton4Bolts

    glutton4Bolts Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Mar 18, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah... anyone that is making the claim that the MLS is not growing in quality just hasn't been watching. As a matter of fact... I wouldn't be surprised if it was near the 10th best league in the world in 5 years if it keeps going in this direction.
     
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  24. dougtee

    dougtee Member+

    Feb 7, 2007
    thats not an accurate description of how mls domsetic/international roster spots work, is it?
     
  25. Jazzy Altidore

    Jazzy Altidore Member+

    Sep 2, 2009
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I just understand there’s some requirement for domestic players. If I’m wrong please correct me.
     

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