The Containment Unit: The YA League Comparison Discussion

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by Testudo, Sep 21, 2014.

  1. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    they don’t have to be stIckes but I’d they’ve got a handful of players on each team that’s better than MLS in total.
     
  2. I think you should take a good look on the AZ Alkmaar (they have the best academy in the Netherlands in my opinion), Ajax and PSV Youngs line up of the years 2018 and 2019.
    A couple were sold for Pulisic money, others are on the brink of the big Orange team and are now playing EL/CL matches. AZ Alkmaar played United last week and the United crew managed to have not one shot at the AZ goalie.
    So I donot get where you get your info from to post such an assertion.
    As those 3 Young teams have been cannibalised from their ready for first team duty players they're now in the process of integrating the next wave of talents into the Young team.
     
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  3. Dave Marino-Nachison

    Jun 9, 1999
  4. Robert Frick

    Robert Frick New Member

    Barcelona
    Brazil
    Dec 30, 2019
    American soccer prospect

    New american play Brazil

     
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  5. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Erste Divisie is much better than USL and much better forma players development.

    The obvious path to first team minutes is either getting promoted at Ajax or moving on to another team. The games I watched of Jong Ajax and PSV look to be good preparation for playing at a higher level. I'd be happy with any if our 19 yo (who arent playing regularly in Bund) spend time in environments like that.
     
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  6. frankburgers

    frankburgers Member+

    May 31, 2016
    It’s maybe a little better than USL. It’s by no means much better. But given your posting history, you probably thinks it’s better than mls too.
     
  7. Are the elite clubs scouting the USL, like they do with the Dutch second tier?
     
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  8. dougtee

    dougtee Member+

    Feb 7, 2007
    you would certainly hope so?
     
  9. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    If you know my posting history, you would know that I dont like comparing leagues, especially MLS since its rosters are built completely different than everywhere else in the world.

    I domt think the focus should be on "better" league for younger players (u21), but should be focused on where is the player going to improve the most over those years. Using that criteria, I think playing for Jong Ajax and PSV is a much better environment than FCD or Philly, let alone the rest of MLS. The goal for their clubs is to get them to the first teams while MLS clubs are just trying to win games.

    These clubs require more technical and tactical players. It is pretty clear watching clips of Mendez and Ledezma that they are required to play at a much faster pace than what you will see of clips Pomykal and Aaronson. Sure, the MLS guys might face more physical play, but they have much more time on the ball.

    I am pretty comfortable with my prior comment that the Erste Divisie is much better than USL, though I couldnt care less.
     
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  10. Indeed. Those Young teams arenot for window dressing, it's both a hardening process, physically more demanding than youth competitions, and a process of keeping your technical and tactical advantage alive while being harassed by players who arenot going to be soft like in youth leagues.
     
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  11. wynaldaisagod

    wynaldaisagod Member

    Ajax
    United States
    Aug 9, 2019
    There's no evidence Ajax bought him. If they did, the fee would have been nothing (under 100k at absolute most).

    I think he was a free that they took a flyer on. The fact they played him as a RW, 6, 8, 10 means they don't really know where his best position is and they were just trying things out.
     
  12. wynaldaisagod

    wynaldaisagod Member

    Ajax
    United States
    Aug 9, 2019
    I'm not sure if this is a trap but I seriously doubt you've watched much, if any Eerste Divisie if you think it's anywhere close to MLS. The transfermarkt values of those players is about even with USL (if you take out Jong Ajax which includes guys who are really Ajax players). Hell the SPI numbers for the relegation Eredivisie teams are even with USL from a numbers perspective.

    From a 'environment' challenge perspective, Eerste Divisie has basically no fans. No travel. No weather to deal with. They look and feel like exhibition matches.

    From a style/talent perspective, it's a very young league. The Jong teams play totally varying lineups. Jong Ajax hadn't run the same lineup in consecutive matches EVER until this season. Tons of players miss time for youth tournaments. When Ajax was running Eiting-Gravenbersh-Ekklenkamp this year, it was probably an above average MLS midfield-- it not better. But that's rare. They also ran some lineups that were poor-- and they're by far the most talented team in the league.

    If you think the defending/time on the ball is easier in MLS than the Eerste Divisie, then I just can't argue with you. The Eredivisie isn't exactly know for defending... and you're dealing with the second tier.
     
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  13. Actually that's the same thing they did with Dest. The Uxx Orange coaches had no clue what to make out of Dest because of that. Only at Young Ajax iirc he finally was put in a fixed spot.
     
  14. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I never compared the iver all level of play of the Erste Divisie. I dont care that MLS is "better", mostly through the purchase of foreign players.

    Your approach of using transfermarkt value to compare the two leagues is odd to me. Discussion on the validity of those values usually has people agreeing that they are the most useless for lower levels. The simplest way to compare the leagues into look at what talent comes out of them and Jong Ajax has produced many more top level players than USL. I don't recall a USL side ever playing a an MLS quality midfield before. Another useful way would be to look st players who have played in both. A 19 yo Mendez was less effective in the Erste Divisie than a 17/18 yo Mendez was in USL.

    I dont think environmental challenges are that important for teenagers and many of the ones you mention only matter for MLS. At some point they players will have to deal with the pressure of crowds but it isnt a top priority for me. What they do have is the pressure to perform to continue getting minutes... something that isnt clearly there in MLS.

    Not sure the importance of changing lineups. If anything, I'd seen it as a challenge.

    I didnt say is easier in MLS (I alsondont think the defending is that great). I specifically talked about time on the ball for specific players who are all midfielders. I have shared all touch videos of Ledezma and Pomyksl in the past and is was clear that Ledezma was pressured more, had less time on the ball, and Jong PSV as a whole moved the ball quicker.
     
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  15. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Not sure why you only quoted one sentence but then referenced other thing in my post...

    I thought we were talking about 19/20 year olds and not 17 yo who havent matured yet. Pomykal and Aaronson are auto starters.

    Again, much easier to look at how a younger Mendez had a much bigger influence in USL. Comparing the actual values of the leagues doesnt give me sense that USL is close. Eerste Divise clubs average $7.4m, with the second highest value being $8.8m and lowest being 2.4m. USL clubs average $3.3m with a range of around $1m to $5.3m. That is more than 2x. It is still 50% more when you exclude the $50ish million for Jong Ajax. Looking at PSV, Ajax, and LAG, each of the team have 8+ teenagers in their squads with no values. I think Ledezma at $800k and Mendez at $300k are extremely undervalued.

    Let's go back to Mendez... a 17 yo version who was fairly impressive with LAG II was worth $110k, but the 19 yo version who has looked average for Jong Ajax is worth 330k. Finding it hard to come to the conclusion that USL is close and the transfermarkt values worth anything.

    Ajax/Jong Ajax has developed more top players than MLS and USL. They have a track record of doing it while MLS and USL domt.

    I prefer all touch videos to highlights. These are less about how the players perform (but could be worth discussing), but more about the defensive pressure, time allowed on the ball, speed of play, and the frequency a player can advance the ball with no pressure or beating a man. I could only find one of Mendez. Since that was against PSV, I chose one against a full side. People have claimed thatsuummer games in Dallas are slower because of the weather so picked one from early spring. The Aaronson one is from a week ago. There are more games for all of them except Mendez.







     
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  16. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    It isnt surprising that the two teams that made the finals of the MLS tournament played the toughest defense. Both Orlando and Portland pressured Aaronson more than the other teams and he was much less effective advancing the ball.

    He still had a couple nice plays, but more times than not, he lost possession or the ball went sideways/backwards. A few times it appears he cant process what he is going to do and just stands on the ball or dribbles sideways while trying to figure out what to do. We see this all the time when MLS guys are called into the USMNT. Thisnis a sign that he isnt used to higher level and would be great if he was forced to play with extra pressure and faster pace more often.



     
  17. wynaldaisagod

    wynaldaisagod Member

    Ajax
    United States
    Aug 9, 2019
    I don't think Transfermarkt is perfect. I agree Richie at 800k is low (although he's barely played first team minutes) but Mendez at 300k is probably too high. He's about to turn 20 and has never touched a first team bench and he's moved twice on frees. I don't think he's an average MLS player.

    Sure Ajax has produced more players than MLS/USL (and again as I said they're better than 99% clubs) but Ajax hadn't produced a midfielder as good as Adams or McKennie outside of van de Beek in a long while. de Jong joined at 18 so he doesn't count.

    We can go back and forth 1,000 times re: Aaronson v Mendez... But this is why Aaronson is way ahead of Mendez-- he can do things like this that Mendez has no chance to do:

     
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  18. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    How do I get you to understand that none of what I have wrote has to do with comparing players but the different environments. i wouldn't try to compare Mendez to Aaronson because they are completely different players. Because they play different styles, both can do things the others can't. I can find a number of things Mendez can do that Aaronson can't.

    Everyone knows you don't rate Mendez. You have shared that opinion over and over on here. I would compare Ledezma and Aaronson. I think Ledezma is way ahead of Aaronson (and Pomykal) even without the mythical "first team minutes". It is absurd that Aaronson is almost twice RLs value at $1.4m.

    The point was that Ajax is just one of 20 clubs. Big time players also come out of Jong PSV and the other 18 teams in the league. Not sure why you wouldn't count Frenkie because he arrived at 18 when we are discussing a player that arrived at 19 (and comoaring environments for 19 yo. Yeah, they paid $11m for him but help develop him to make more than 7x their money on him. It is also tough to bring players along when you already have 2 strong players who are currently 23 and the rest of the midfield. So those two 23 year olds and 20 yo Gravenberch ($12.1m) and 18 yo Ekkelenkamp ($3.5) is doing pretty well.

    That was one of decent plays in the clips I included above. He didn't do much else in that game

    Moving on to highlights... besides the less space that Ledezma has, PSV attack so much quicker and as a unit. Id much rather have a young player with Jong PSV than Philadelphia. Ledezma's progression from a youth player to a high level player is much further along.



     
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  19. wynaldaisagod

    wynaldaisagod Member

    Ajax
    United States
    Aug 9, 2019
    Of course playing first team minutes mean a ton in terms of value. Performing well at Eerste Divisie level doesn't mean much. If Richie can provide some serious minutes at PSV this year, his value will skyrocket. But you have to prove you can play at a real level before your value goes up. I think he has a shot to be the best of the group of 4 you mention for sure. The problem he has is breaking into PSV's first team is not easy. I like he took the risk but there's a chance he just isn't good enough to play there.

    Pomkyal / Aaaronson / Ledesma are about even at this point. Paxton's injuries are a concern. But to say RL is "way ahead" when he's never really played a high level is absurd.

    You really have no idea what you are talking about re: de Jong. You're off by $10,999,999 on what Ajax bought him for. If you come to Ajax at 18, people at Ajax do not at all consider you a Youth Academy product. The other 18 teams in the league producing tons of talent? You aren't exactly reading about huge talents to come out of Helmond, Telstar and a vast majority of those teams. BTW-- I've seen some Eerste Divisie players in the US they play in USL/NASL (when it existed).

    Gravenbersh (18) is a serious prospect (he made the youngest debut in Ajax history) and Ekklenkamp (20) is seen as a filler player by most... nothing more. Is your point Mendez is against super serious competition? The age group he's in is considered a rather big flop by Ajax standards (no one who is a sure fire starter other than Dest in that group).
     
  20. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Ledezma is much more rounded player (got to see that today in second half with first team during preseason). I'm not going to judge him on something he hasnt had a chance to do. If he doesnt make it at PSV, he will find somewhere else. If it ends up being MLS, I am sure he would be dominant given his skills, training/development at PSV, and playing in the Eerste Divisie.

    I got the values from transfermarkt. I dont care if Ajax fans dont consider him a youth player. I care about how good they are at taking 18 yo prospects and helping them reach their potential. They appear to be very good at it while MLS as whole has been very poor at it. I'll take the environment with the track record.

    @feyenoordsoccerfan can you help me out with the talent produced from the lower divisions?
     
  21. wynaldaisagod

    wynaldaisagod Member

    Ajax
    United States
    Aug 9, 2019
    The point is pretty simple: RL hasn't played at a high level yet. That's why I can't say he's "way ahead" of Pomkyal/Aaaronson. I wouldn't be surprised if he's better than those 2. But as of now, he hasn't so it's impossible to say he's "Way" better because he hasn't faced real competition.

    Again: I agree Ajax is better than "MLS" at producing talent. I have no clue why you keep going on about that. We are talking Eerste Divisie not really Ajax vs. MLS but sure. Track records are useless to talk about with MLS. Their academies are just getting going.

    Feyenoord will agree: Willem II produced de Jong. Not Ajax. To say Ajax produced him is as false as saying Ajax paid a $11m fee for him.
     
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  22. The most recent remarkable one is Arnaut Danjuma Groeneveld, who was developed by NEC Nijmegen and playing in our second tier. He was bought for a small fee by Club Brugge and showed he was very much up to the higher level, so much he made it into the Orange squad. His Orange debut was at 21 yo. He was bought by Bournemouth for around 16 million €€. Unfortunately he got injured so he hasnot been playing after his debut for the Orange team.
    Dries Mertens was developed by a low flying team in our second tier. Ruud Gullit too. Ruud van Nistelrooij and Klaas Jan Huntelaar started as youngsters in that second tier. Just a few of high calibre players.
     
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  23. STR1

    STR1 Member+

    Atlanta United
    May 29, 2010
    McAllen, TX
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Gotta love the good 'ol "MLS isn't as good as XX Euro second division". I thought players like Gio Reyna, Alphonso Davies, Tyler Adams, Jack Harrison etc were proof enough that MLS isn't as bad as people always make it out to seem.

    We also have cases where players who were in better academies in way better leagues and couldn't make it there, then came to MLS and could not even make the bench (Zalalem is a good example...was in academies for years).
     
  24. largegarlic

    largegarlic Member+

    Jul 2, 2007
    I've posted this before, but I had a trial in Holland at AZ back when I was 18 in the late 90s and trained with their reserves for 6 weeks. I wasn't good enough to get a contract, so I ended up playing in college. Since my college was in Florida, we would occasionally scrimmage MLS teams during their preseason. Obviously, my experience is over 20 years old and may not track with how things are today, but even back then, the MLS teams were significantly better than the Dutch 2nd division teams. The good MLS players then would have dominated in the Dutch 2nd division, and MLS is lot better now than it was then, though I will admit to not knowing much about the current level of the Dutch 2nd division.

    To make this relevant to the thread at hand, I'd say that if Mendez isn't a very good player by the standards of the Dutch 2nd division, he'll have a tough time making it in MLS.
     
  25. MHaifa1913

    MHaifa1913 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Metro
    United States
    Dec 21, 1998
    New York, NY, USA
    Club:
    Maccabi Haifa FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Likewise, didn’t Mael Corboz not even feature for Metro but plays in the 2nd division in the Netherlands?
     

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