The coming boom in multi-eligible player recruitment

Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by Dave Marino-Nachison, Jul 27, 2020.

  1. dougtee

    dougtee Member+

    Feb 7, 2007
    if flores is as good as he looked at the revelations cup he is more a missing piece for canada than mexico in the short term imo.
     
  2. Dave Marino-Nachison

    Jun 9, 1999
    #427 Dave Marino-Nachison, Dec 1, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2021
    I certainly wouldn't put it past Canada to try to pull Flores right into the MNT; I just don't know much about it. If they were in fact recruiting Enes Sali (who played in a WCQ for Romania last month, but they're out I believe) at the MNT level as reported then you'd have to think Flores is closer to the team from a 2022 perspective. Canada's last incoming MNT recruit, Ugbo, is a regular in Belgium, though I don't think he's a consistent starter.
     
  3. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Canada is using the advantage we did with Dest and Musah. They lack depth in a lot of places, have an exciting young core, a guaranteed 2026 WC slot, and don't have the vets or the traditions that require a player to pay his dues.

    It's a good edge to use while you've got it. Once you are better, some of those things start to go away. Once you get Dest ... Araujo becomes harder to recruit (not that PT is the only consideration). Once our young generation becomes 25-26 ... they are going to be more resistant to a 20 year old challenging their long time teammates' spot. If we or Canada ever gets really good ... we will start to get arrogant about needing to recruit ... recruits need to recruit us.

    But for now, lots in Canada and the US' favor.
     
  4. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    Honestly I couldn't care less about Araujo and others border line talents. As of today Arraujo is so behind Herrera that I doubt that he ever becomes as good as Herrera today. There is a good chance that playing stupid games with Araujo and Mexico we will push Herrera who always wanted to play for us away. Get Dest/Musah supertalents if you can, but then consider loyalty among other qualities choosing the rest.
     
  5. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I think I like Araujo a lot more than you do. I think he’s a bit challenged in that he’s a very strong defender in a position that has become an offensive one, but I think he’s better than Herrera.

    I’d like to see Herrera in December but he’s apparently behind a lot more than Araujo on Berhalter’s depth chart.
     
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  6. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    Herrera for me is arguably RSL MVP. He is very Dolo like player who is good at everything in a very inconspicuous way. He's supposedely a defensive RB with a 1G+11A, Arajuo is supposedely attacking RB with 0G+7A in more minutes. Defense wise they are farer apart than in attacking contribution.
     
  7. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    #432 Clint Eastwood, Dec 2, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
    Herrera is exactly the kind of player we should expect to lose in coming years.
    He's not going to be able to jump over Dest, Scally, etc. at right back. He's what..............5 years older than Scally?

    So his choice is to be competing for a rotation role on the USMNT with Cannon, Yedlin, etc. or potentially be a core piece for Guatemala.

    Once these CONCACAF nations start being officially eliminated from WCQing, we'll start seeing them try to get these guys into WCQers. It's thus good to get young players like Kevin Paredes into the USMNT fold this winter. We'll probably see some guys being peeled off our pool next year. As long as its not the top tier guys, we're fine. It's just something we have to accept. Guys in that Tommy Romero range. Kobe Hernandez Foster ..............Honduras might call him in just to get him cap-tied. A lottery ticket. Could be nothing, could still develop into something. That kind of guy.

    As far as Julian Araujo goes, I would really have liked to have kept him in the pool. He's not Dest or Scally......................but he's a versatile defensive player. Still only 20 and finished 3rd in MLS Young Player of the Year voting behind Pepi and Buchanon. He'll be in Europe real soon. But he's also the type of player whose defection doesn't damage our program. Same as Ochoa, Alvarez, Akinola, etc.

    Frankly, we'll still come out on top in the dual-national ledger...............just like we do every year. People will still fret. Look at the dual-nationals we cap-tied in 2021. Yunus Musah and those guys. We got Pepi, Mexico got Ochoa and Araujo. We win. If we get Gomez then Mexico can have three more Ochoas. For 2022, the other big fish for us is Balogun.

    By the way, I love the idea of Luchi joining Berhalter's USMNT staff (which is a rumor in the twitterverse right now). We can talk about his deficiencies as an X's and O's coach. Fine. But as a bilingual recruiter of young players? Top notch. We had an earlier discussion about whether having Luchi on the USSF staff helps with the recruitment of Gomez or not. I don't know.
     
  8. Ray Shoesmith

    Ray Shoesmith Member+

    Valencia
    United States
    Nov 14, 2021
    Quality over quantity, The Mexico pull is huge for kids if you understand the culture they grew up in and the dynamic. Pepi was a monstrous win.
    The US has to play the long game with Mex recruits. We have to prove the guys with dual roots are going to get real chances here. We should not cater to them over others, but we should have tools that make them more comfortable, and Luchi would fit the bill. As Mex recruits in quantity, and cap ties for the sake of it, the list of washouts who feel they weren’t given a fair shake will grow, and more will feel stronger about what we do. That’s the best way the US can play it IMO.
    As you have pointed out many times. Just win the top guys and we will be fine.
    Looking forward to seeing Paredes with the Nats. That’s one to keep, and I am certain we will.
     
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  9. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    Herrera? Herrera! Aaron Herrera should be no where near our national team.
    Herrera is behind Araujo in my opinion but to even say he is so far behind is beyond the pale of comparison.
     
    Ray Shoesmith repped this.
  10. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    Have you seen Herrera recently or this based on previous years? Totally different Herrera. Have you seen Arahjo recently? To say he is stagnating would be understatement.
     
  11. Ray Shoesmith

    Ray Shoesmith Member+

    Valencia
    United States
    Nov 14, 2021
    I think Herrera has done well this year. He has bounced back real well from Olympic qualifiers, as has Djorde M, but like Djorde I see a very good MLSer, but not all that much upside.
    JA, for me, is still very inconsistent and erratic, but I see upside there that I don’t in the other two. He needs a Euro move to refine his play and be put under real pressure to take the next step IMO. Even then I see him having an Andy Najar upside. In general when there are so many questions about guys like this, it usually means they aren’t going to be top players, but at best can play a nice part here and there.
     
  12. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    Yes, but besides Dest none of our FBs is a starter level, and Dest is a dribbler and gets injured pretty often. So if we happen to go to WC we might need 5 FBs unless you believe that Acosta or Ream can be used.
     
  13. Ray Shoesmith

    Ray Shoesmith Member+

    Valencia
    United States
    Nov 14, 2021
    #438 Ray Shoesmith, Dec 2, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
    Starter level? I’m not a huge Yedlin fan, but he has been very good for us this cycle. He has also regained his starting spot at Gala, under big pressure from that fanbase, and has played real well over the last few months. He has EPL experience and was generally OK. I used to think folks way over estimated him, now it’s gone to far the other way. Scally? I have watched every minute of his this year looking for cracks. That kid is not an accident. Hell, Cannon has been pretty damn reliable for the Nats, even though he is limited. I think we are better off than you might think. Herrera is a fine player, a very good MLS player, and that means so much more now than several years ago, but I don’t see that much more from him. As always I would love to be wrong. I just don’t see Herrera getting a shot and I completely understand why he wouldn’t. It’s not a fight worth having. It’s kind of like when the usual crowd goes on about how dumb our coach is for not seeing the Euro brilliance of guys like Gall, Sabbi, Gooch, Nova, Gyau, etc.
     
  14. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    To be honest no I haven't seen significant Herrera this year, RSL isn't my go to game of the week.
    But even an improved Herrera is still an Aaron Herrera...I'll try to check him out this playoff game or rewatch SKC game where I don't really remember him standing out.
     
  15. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    Totally different player, exactly like all star Alex Roldan is different from outcast Alex Roldan.
     
  16. Dave Marino-Nachison

    Jun 9, 1999
    Herrera apparently made some pretty strong statements recently or semi-recently about wanting to represent the U.S. He'll still be on the right side of 30 in 2026!

    https://futbolcentroamerica.com/gua...nco-de-Luis-Fernando-Tena--20211118-0007.html

    I know he's at least interested in a move to Europe and there have been links to teams (of whatever seriousness I don't know) that might keep him in the MNT conversation, if not jump him to the "business end" of the pool.

    I'm not in his head but one wonders if he'd feel differently if Guatemala were in the Octogonal. They came achingly close to making it to the second round. Of course, Canada and Panama were in that round too so there wasn't a ton of margin for error there.
     
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  17. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    Scally is on his way to becoming the NT starter. Cannon, Yedlin etc. are all in the same group of not good enough as of today, and there are something like 10 more players in that group: Herrera, Jones, Dunkan, upcoming Gressel, Bello, Vines, Araujo, Reynolds, Paredez, Tolkin, JoGo. For me Araujo is falling down to the end of that list, so I really don't care of him switching. Hopefully some of the kids step up, but meanwhile that's a tough choice and so far GB seems totally confused dealing with that position.
     
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  18. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Aaron Herrera can certainly move to Europe.
    I put him in the same category as fullbakcs like Kyle Duncan, Sam Vines, and Reggie Cannon. Good MLS players that are now in good leagues. None of us think he's going to Arsenal.

    If Herrera played a different position, his path to the USMNT would be easier. Its a hard path when not even Joe Scally has appeared for the USMNT yet. Bryan Reynolds of Roma has appeared once as a substitute. I just mention those guys because they're substantially younger than Herrera. Dest is also younger than Herrera. Hell, Reggie Cannon is younger than Herrera.

    We don't require a USMNT path for EVERY US-eligible player. For some guys the path will just be blocked. I'd rather our staff give younger guys in defense an opportunity at December camp (Tolkin, Gray, Che, etc.). That may just be me.
     
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  19. Ray Shoesmith

    Ray Shoesmith Member+

    Valencia
    United States
    Nov 14, 2021
    Pretty much. I like AH. He is a very good player. We should actually be happy that a player like him has such a hard time being considered for our team.
    That is a very, very, very good thing. We are going to be in a position over the next five years where only difference makers, in form, are going to play.
    It just has happened at right back first. Hell, look at left back. We went from eternal desperation and despair a few years ago to having at least competent guys. AR, Vines, with young legit prospect possibilities, not the hopeful fantasies of the past in Bello, Tolkin, Parades, Scally and maybe even Gomez.

    We went from nothing to something tangible quick. I want more but I am happy, and appreciate it in the context of our very recent past.
     
  20. Dave Marino-Nachison

    Jun 9, 1999
    #445 Dave Marino-Nachison, Dec 3, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2021
    Well, the teams Herrera has been "linked with" -- taken with the obvious grain of salt since obviously he's not on those teams -- were a Serie A squad and a La Liga promotion candidate. A hypothetical situation where a guy perhaps in the middle or bottom of the top dozen at his position in the MNT depth chart is playing regularly at that level is kind of uncharted territory.

    One can certainly feel differently about how the program should handle guys in those spots (I personally don't have the time or energy for strong opinions about who the #8 RB should be anymore, though I miss the days when I did) but a guy like that might still end up playing minutes in friendlies and occasionally getting pulled into important camps when circumstances warrant.

    With that said from a recruiting perspective you can see why those choices matter. If Berhalter for whatever reason wasn't a fan of Shaq Moore, what happens? Is Araujo still with the U.S.? Does Herrera maybe move up on the depth chat? Etc.
     
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  21. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  22. Ray Shoesmith

    Ray Shoesmith Member+

    Valencia
    United States
    Nov 14, 2021
    Over this decade this will become the norm IMO in most positions.

    There will be net fights galore on who hasn’t gotten a fair shake, deserves a shot, and they will be very good players.
    As you said, not worth the energy.
    Much better than arguing over which 2nd division part timer, MLS guy, or 1st division reserve or bench warmer should play.

    Shaq earned some trust after the GC. I wasn’t 100% with his call up, I would have handled it differently, but I get why the coach did it. It makes sense.
    Araujo never concerned me (he could have been helpful) because I never got the feeling he was with us.
    Just didn’t. I want players who want to be here. We have a real committed group right now and I love it.
     
  23. Dave Marino-Nachison

    Jun 9, 1999
    Ha. Well, there always have been fights galore about every spot on the chart. Some people enjoy those fights and I'm not gonna tell people how to use their free time. (I wish I had more!) Heck, I used to be right in the middle of things, writing red-hot "call up this one dude who might be better than the current #3 left wing, or else fire the coach" takes. It was a gentler time.
     
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  24. Ray Shoesmith

    Ray Shoesmith Member+

    Valencia
    United States
    Nov 14, 2021
    Sure, but it all depends on perspective. For me we have options now who have played at good levels and performed reasonably well. The general faith I have in those players is significantly higher than the depth we are used to. I look at that as real progress. We have options and the coach has to use them the best way he sees fit. Unlike the past I am no longer worried about complete naiveness, being overwhelmed, not having enough savvy or experience, like I used to. Are those guys world beaters? No, but they are competent pros who can do the job when needed. When a talent like Musah, Gio or now Scally pops up GB has shown he will bring them in, let them get a feel for it, and then play them if they are that much better. I have no problem with that at all. It’s important that the players who get replaced see that talent also. Makes for better team chemistry and spirit, something we have in droves right now, which I love. Dest, for all his skill definitely showed his inexperience with qualifiers early, and has shown that he needs to be better defensively. He has readily admitted this.
    I can see why RB has been an issue because of that and injuries, Cannon was and then hadn’t played. Explained Dest, and Yedlin was in poor form. Yet, through all that the drop off has not been monstrous. That’s what top teams foster and create. Just gonna take another several years to get there across the team. We have come so far so quick talent wise in these last 3 or 4 years.
    I think we sometimes forget just how bad it was just a short time ago.
     
  25. Ray Shoesmith

    Ray Shoesmith Member+

    Valencia
    United States
    Nov 14, 2021
    Sure, I was there too.:) I think a lot of that came from knowing that most of our guys, outside of a select few, were really, really flawed.
    We were desperate for that magic formula of players, even though down deep I knew player X was just as mediocre as the other player playing.

    Now we have competent pros. Makes me more comfortable. Now I just sit back and wait for something special, because we need special now. Difference makers. Guys who are a cut above. It’s a good feeling, and it’s obvious when you see them.
     

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