i think you're being way too hard-lined here. don't ge me wrong, i go to these games with a very similar mindset as what you've described, but our situation (read: mls) can't warrant this kind of stance yet. we don't have 80 years of tradition yet, and a random soccer mom (or any casual attendee) doesn't have the knowledge about the game to understand our passion and desire to have a boisterous atmosphere at all times. if that quote is what you're perceiving the cauldron's (generally speaking) reaction is like, then yours is probably something like a young boy who keeps pestering a young girl because he likes her and that's the only way he knows how to express himself... all the while the girl is hating this boy more and more. i don't think anyone is suggesting laying down their arms and succumbing to the whims of the bible-thumping soccer mom (no offense, just using visuals to make my point clearer). it's all about a measured reaction to coexist.
You're absolutely right, but WHO CARES?! Why on Earth would I change who I am and how I act for someone like that? I don't need their acceptance or understanding to validate my passion. Sorry, that's just way off. In fact, I virtually never cuss. This whole argument isn't about me; I'm not the one yelling obsceneties. But I will fight tooth-and-nail against anyone trying to supress what we enjoy doing in the Cauldron. I'll ask any truly passionate soccer fan...Would you rather watch a game at Arrowhead filled to the rafters with silent people who don't care, or would you rather watch a game with only 500 people going crazy and singing and making noise the whole 90 minutes?
I have to take issue with this. This is exactly the sort of blanket stereotyping that we get upset about whenever Brits or Anglophiles talk about how "ignorant Americans are about sawker." I think you'll find a good many "soccer moms" understand the history and passion quite well. Whether they choose to embrace it or not is a seperate issue, but to blithely go on about how "ignorant" other fans are is just not good for business. And frankly if they are that stupid, I'd have to say that after 10 years, the Mystics and the Cauldron are an abysmal failure. You'd be hard pressed to go to a game at Soldier Field or RFK Stadium and find a "random soccer mom" that doesn't "get" what the Barnburners or the Eagles/Barra are about.
you're right... i regret laying that stereotype over all the soccer moms in the country as i have no experience in other cities. however, i stand by it as far as kansas city goes. i am more than willing to snack on some crow if anyone could show me that more than 10-20 percent of the "soccer moms" in this area have any "real" knowledge about the history of supporting the beautiful game. notice that i said the history of supporting, not just knowledge about the game itself. i just don't buy it. with the kind of knowledge that i believe they lack, they would understand and respect why the cauldron (and the behavior that goes on there) is a necessary ingredient to soccer in kansas city. they understand the passion behind the chiefs and they put up with it in the stadium... the same cannot be said with the wizards. icekaiser, i'm not saying i support suppressing anything in the cauldron. i'm just saying that a reaction is key here, not an over-reaction.
People can agree to disagree and still co-exist. Plus this isn't that big a deal. Funny how one little email can start this much talk. But I like it, because it gets ideas flowing. You're absolutely right man. That's why we're all there. No question about it. If you actually meant that, you're way off base. They care. They all care. Whats funny is, in reality, we know more than most of them. I've been approached by two different guys that I've gotten to know over the years that work for the Wizards about what the current situation with the team is. They're clueless, and they know we're involved. So they come to us, because they absolutely care. I'm not sure if you're directing that at me. I'd consider myself a leader by example, never by title. (I'll leave that to Kevin/Sam/who ever) But I have been communicating with Curt about various things over the last couple of years as well. If you read back in my posts, you'll see that I'm not exactly the right person to carry this message. I curse at the games. One thing I've stopped doing is blurting out the loud F Bombs on my own. Being in the front row, that will get your ass kicked out quick. And I know you've been tossed a few times and it doesn't seem to bother you, but that's not the example I'd like to give to the newer members (especially the teenagers) of the section. It's not a situation of "the man" keeping us down like I always get the feeling you think it is (at least thats how I read your posts). We have to co-exists with the other fans, the FO, security, etc. We simply don't have the numbers to be a FORCE to be reckoned with. When we do, then it's a whole new ball game. You do whatever you want. But realize, and maybe you don't give a sh!t but I hope you do, that when someone standing in our section does something stupid it reflects on all of us. Whether we like it or not, some guy that is in the section for the first time ever could spit on a player, throw a beer, etc and it reflects on us. And for a lot of people who've been in the section a long time, and put a lot of hard work into getting us where we are, I would consider that a slap in the face to them.
Repped. I'll take it one step further ... there is a long way to go after the Wizards leave the journey through the looking glass that this season has become. It's not just an issue that can tear down the foundations, but it could also stand in the way of what what can be built. Be strong, be vocal. For the opponents and players be venomous, cruel, and pointed in criticism and heckling. Just know that I feel we are entering a period when anyone who puts on Blues for the Wizards will be in a position to be the front line representative of the future - HASF, Cauldron, both, or neither. Oh, and don't forget to write letters to Lamar, Clark, and John Wagner.
I guess nobody read this. Ben, I consider you a friend. And knowing how much time you've spent following the Wiz, I would never direct anything negative your way. This is about altering who we are. If somebody walked up to you on the street and said, "I don't like your shirt. I'd apprecite it, the next time we cross paths, if you'd wear something a little nicer." you'd either think they're nuts, or you'd tell them where to go. I understand that we want more people at the games. But do you really want more of whoever complained?! I just think altering how we act (even if it is seems like it's for a greater good) is a very dangerous thing to do. That brings us one step closer to being the Applebee's® Cauldron, where if we're really good and we watch our potty-mouth, we might get free Riblets!
Thats cool. But if you have something negative to say, considering us friends, I have no problem hearing it. I'm a big boy, I'll survive. Point taken. I don't think we should change who we are at all. If people want to keep cursing, it's their right to do so. I just ask that we not do anything that would jeapordize the work many have done.
This will be a topic at the Cauldron get together. It was brought up to me again at the USOC game. Curt made it a point to come over to me, and he made some valid points. I'm not saying we bend over backwards, but the least we can do is hear him out. He said that he continues to get many complaints about language. The words he mentioned come specifically from chants we do. Some of them, to me, aren't that bad ("You're a Bastard, referee" was mentioned). Others are valid, and might be something we consider not doing. He said nothing, although I did not ask, about words toward our own players. All the talk was about chants/songs we do. He mentioned that if the complaints continue and we don't at least help the situation they might start kicking people out of games. I would hate to see that start to happen. Remember too, please don't kill the messanger here. I'm simply relaying the message that is sent my way. And yeah...."Wings of a Sparrow" and "Can You Hear the Menace Sing?" were great ideas with him standing right next to us!
We should all come and sing nothing but church hymnals next game. See how many people complain about that. I bet you Curt gets more complaints about us singing church songs then he gets about our cursing! /being sarcastic, but somewhat serious
The Menace Red Army got in trouble last night for using the word "stones." Me thinks they're a little too sensitive!
I didn't see him there when I started "Can Your Hear" -- however, 90% of us said "frickin" or other alternate words anyway,
From an outside source who was standing with us last night: One of my co-workers came over and stood with us last night (I've been trying to convince him to purchase season tickets). He is a former college and H.S. player, so he is a fan of the game. I talked to him today to get his opinion, as an outsider, of the Cauldron and the "language" issue. He said he talked to several individuals during the course of the game and that hey all seemed very nice, very knowledgable guys. However, he was bothered by the organized group taunting of the opponents and the officials. Fairly early into the game, he asked me if we always had "those kind of chants", referring to some with "profanity". He said he was rather uncomfortable most of the time, and even considered leaving at half when he wenot out to buy a drink. His concern was that we may be running off more people than we are attracting, due to the "group" abuse/taunting and wondered why we didn't have more positive/creative pro-Wizards chants as opposed to the negative anti-opponent/official chants. He even asked me if we had any pro-Wizards chants because he could not recall hearing any during the game. Now, keep in mind, these are not necessarily my views. I just thought the group might be interested in the impression we are making on someone from outside the group, who is an avid soccer fan like most of us.
Dammit, you stole my thunder. Damn my responsibilities... I've been thinking about this issue for a while, and with the comments about the language and perceptions of negativity towards the players it's kinda come to a head. I've noticed that we've become a bit more silent and a bit more stale in our chants. It seemed to me when I was on the drum at the RSL match that everytime I thought about starting a chant in the second half, we'd already done the chant I was thinking of. We've also become a bit more disorganized in our chanting and singing. When we're doing "Glory, glory" or "When The Wiz Go Marching In", about half the group sings on with full voice into the third go-round, while the rest of the group peters out and then tries to start back up as the first half has realized they're the only one singing, resulting in a muddy sound much like crap. As much as we are loathe to become an "organized" group, I'd like to think that we should make a commitment to being a bit more organized in terms of our songs. I think it would be a great benefit on two accounts. First, with organization comes volume and clarity, making our support boom out to the players and the rest of the stadium, hopefully influencing both positively. Second, with more chants and songs, it won't seem as if the only things we're doing are all about the curse words. Now, before anyone jumps down my throat...... - I'm ABSOLUTELY NOT saying that we should do away with the chants that have profanity. We are an adult group. Wings of a Sparrow, Can You Hear... and Bastard Referee have a definite place, if only from tradition's standpoint. - I'm also not saying that organic eruptions of profanity should be policed by the section. We're adults and we can express ourselves however the **** D) we feel like. - I'm certainly up for being one of the creative voices behind coming up with the new chants. (You've all seen my work and dedication) - I'm also all about doing the layout and printing (thanks to my fancy work copier) of some new chant sheets or even a song book if we get creative enough. I'd love to sit down and discuss this more at the get-together next Wednesday...
It's odd, but I thought we were more positive and fan friendly last night. However, I respect your friend's opinion, Robert. Some close self examination is needed and outsider input is good in that regard. I just don't recall anybody yelling an f-bomb the whole night. I guess the "You're sh!t ... " to the goalie would have upset him too right? Personally I have no problem with any sort of profanity by anyone at any time ... so I am a little conflicted here and not sure of the best approach.
I agree with you Mark, I thought we were fairly positive last night for the game, I mean there were the small gumbles about play at times, but that's always expected. There were a few times we got on players, but not as bad as we have been at other games.
I agree. Most people know I'm against yelling at one of your own players, but I would have almost tolerated it after Burciaga's howler of a match. I think people need to be commended for their patience.
I think, overall, he was more put-off by the negativity and lack of creativitly in the chants. I think he was expecting more pro-Wizards chants, focusing on supporting our team, rather than the anti-opponent/ref chants. I actually tend to agree with him on this in that I would love it if most of our chants were possitive, supportive chants. We do have several, but we have just as many or more on the "other side of the fence". That, plus the fact that I think all of the "supportive" chants are profanity-free....I think. Not that profanity does not have it's time and place (especially with the officiating last night). We talked about it for a while today and I told him that this is an issue we (the Cualdron) are trying to work through. I agree with this. I even mentioned this to my friend today, talking about how poor Jose has played (in gerneral) over the last few weeks and how frustrating it is. I don't like the mass berating of poor performance/mistakes, but Jose has been making it too easy for us.
WINNING big against an amateur makes the team look good and helps on the negative coments on our team. When alone, I enjoy standing with the Cauldron and singing. I'm not impressed by the most of the comments about the officials and opponents, but sometimes it seems appropriate. I've just officiated a lot of games so it doesn't seem fair. I know that everyone sees a different game. I would have liked a better view of the two PKs last night, but you just have to assume the ref had a better view (or bought the dives ).
I have been saying for a long long time, we need to have a chant for every player (ok, not every player, but close to it). At the beginning of the game after "Here we go" and "Wizards" we could run through 8-10 player name chants and then back to "Wizards" or "Everywhere we go" (which leads into "Wizards" anyway). Heck, we'd be 20 minutes in before we got the chance to do a negative chant. I am not much of a chant writer/rhymer however ...
I would just like to thank everyone for not going the route of "Screw Curt, we'll do whatever we want." The first step in trying to lean more positive and put off less fans from outside the section is for us to realize there might be a problem. A lot of good comments have been made.
man, I was thinking the same thing all - in regards to mark and roush, I did compile a list of chants... some are good, some bad(negative/curse). Got most from EPL sites. I changed some around. Some player chants too. I know Roush/Stu/myself/kuhnscoot have worked on changing around the workds to "For boston" to be "For KC" ... Also, helghallen is working on a long version fo "Battly hymn of the republic" that is about the 200 team vs LA and Chicago and 2004 USOC title. I've not said this before because it was our hope to get the songs up on the website and some music to go with each song (think mp3's on the site)... more at the meeting next wednesday ... Anyway, I am willing to email them to Roush(if you don't mind) if he wants to work up some handouts... maybe we can even just get the chants up on the temp site in time for next home game... (again, more discussion on wed i guess)