The case for Pat Noonan as RoY

Discussion in 'New England Revolution' started by John Lewis, Nov 11, 2003.

  1. Rodan

    Rodan New Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Providence
    Straight to you ladies and gentlemen from Iowa City, Iowa.
     
  2. soccertim

    soccertim Member

    Mar 29, 2001
    Mass
    This is a ROY thread, so Open Cup games don't really count. As for the "did his scoring early" thing, he's probably referring to the fact that Ralph has about 2 goals since August. As for Noonan not being a known commodity when he scored his hat trick, he'd scored 4 goals in his previous 3 games vs the Mutts. They'd probably have heard of him by that point. He led the league in scoring after August (Ralph was probably about 30th since then). He's, from what I've heard, the only rookie ever to win the player of the month award.

    Some people in this thread are selling him quite a bit short, IMO. He's played about 14 games worth of mintues at striker, and he's got something like 11 goals and 5 assists in that time. And, even though he must have been the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd priority for the Mutts these last few games, he's still killing them. Shouldn't you at least wait until he slows down before saying that any gm who wanted him over Ralph should be out of a job? When's the last time anyone in the league has scored at this clip? And, while people keep saying that he only scores against the Metros, I'd say that a) The Metros aren't the Burn defensively. He's scored the bulk of his goals against Howard and Walker, and Pope played in half the games, and b) they were really keying on him in the playoffs, and still couldn't stop him.
     
  3. firstshirt

    firstshirt Member+

    Bayern München
    United States
    Mar 1, 2000
    Ellington, CT / NK, RI
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    don't forget noonan was MLS player of the week twice and Ralph once also he has 2 goals in the playoffs and two assist to Ralphs 1 goal.
     
  4. REV-OKe

    REV-OKe Member

    Apr 4, 2001
    Re: Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics


    if it wasn't obvious before, it certainly is now. BigFrank will find fault with everything Rev. He is not interested in civil discourse about the proposed ROY candidates.

    He has an agenda (of undetermined purpose) that requires bashing of Nicol & the revs, and even the players. Noonan could never score enough or do anything to surmount this. I belive his support for Shalrie is a red herring intended to bash the Revs & MLS for allowing Shalrie to play for the freedoms last year, or some other ax he has to grind.


    For those with out and ax to grind, Shalire has indeed been HUGE for the revs. even if he was eligible, i'd still go with noonan, on the timing and importance of his emergence to the revs as a team. shalrie could easily keep playing great as the revs bounced themselves out of the playoffs. noonan was integral to lifting them to where they are today.

    also, i'm a bit disappointed by shalires inability to shoot on goal. if he opened up the long-range shot as a threat, it would create a whole new demention to the rev's game. i cringe envery time he shoots - high & wide. it is what keeps him from being a complete player in my eyes. (noonan is more close to complete)

    on the same topic, Cancela has missed many opportunities to score as well. this guy has to get a nose for the goal when he gets his chances. that is my only beef w/our central mids - otherwise, they are PERFECT (or atleast as perfect as MLS has ever seen).
     
  5. BigFrank

    BigFrank New Member

    Apr 3, 1999
    Dublin, Ireland
    Can't see the forest for the trees

    Ah, my dear rev-OKe, once again you are locked in your own little Spin City.
    It is possible to have a civil discourse and strong opinions. Even opinions that disagree with your own.

    I have not bashed Noonan.
    I have stated over and again that I think that he is good player that has done very well.
    I just do not believe that he is in the same class as Joseph or Ralph as a player. If you were to attach monetary values to each of them, Joseph and Ralph would have higher numbers.

    Nicol?
    Haven't bashed him either.

    Outside of that lunatic Zenga, you will find that I have rarely bashed any individuals.
    Situations and organisations and not doing the right things, yes. Absolutely.
    Individuals, very rarely.

    But I guess it isn't easy to always see things clearly when you are always waiving the company flag in the wind.
     
  6. lethargytartare

    lethargytartare Member+

    Oct 2, 2000
    Magrathea, Horsehead Nebula
    Club:
    Yeovil Town FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Scotland
    in the interest of an actually thought-out consideration of this issue, a little research might help:

    Damani Ralph (all competitions)
    April 1 goal
    May 1 goal, 1 assist
    June 4 goals
    July 1 goal 2 assists (all in one game)
    Aug 3 goals 2 assists
    Sep 2 goals 1 assist
    Oct 1 goal 1 assist
    Nov 1 goal

    some interesting counter arguments that have occurred:

    the argument has been put forth that Ralph benefitted from attention paid to Razov, and that Noonan did not enjoy a similar "advantage." I find the counter to this more compelling - that is, Ralph had to share the ball with Razov more than Noonan did with Fabbro, Moore, and whoever else you threw up top after Twellman's injury. Make Ralph the primary striker, and perhaps he nets 3 or 4 more goals, and we're not even having this discussion.

    Also, his limited time as a goal scorer argues against ROY - while I agree that IF Noonan were to keep scoring at this pace (and put up a brace against a couple teams not from new jersey) a GM might need to look farther than ralph, but right now, Ralph's been doing it for a whole season, while Noonan, by your own admission, hasn't.

    Finally, and this can be very subjective, but even some here have admitted that Damani is a "prettier" package - size, strength, speed, flair. And while I agree the only thing that counts in the end is goals, when you're choosing a rookie of the year you're identifying the best new player, and part of that indentification involves potential. Ralph has all the talents to be a world class player some day, while Noonan doesn't impress in the same way. Damani could be the next Diallo, of course, and Noonan could be the next Razov ;-) but I'd put my money on Damani based on what I saw this year.

    m
     
  7. soccertim

    soccertim Member

    Mar 29, 2001
    Mass
    Funny how the "Ralph for ROY" all seem to include his Open Cup play, to make up for any weak spots in his league play...

    More likely, with the defense focusing more on him, he scores 4 or 5 less and we still aren't having this argument...

    Noonan's scored at this pace since he was put into the lineup. Ralph's the one who's production tailed off as the season went on. At least we're willing to admit Noonan didn't do it for the whole season. The Ralph supporters are all busy trying to pretend that the whole 1 goal in 2 months thing didn't happen.

    So, Ralph deserves the ROY award becaus epeople think that he's got more potential? Makes about as much sense as the rest of your argument. I think that someone had better call the league and make sure that Landon wins the MVP award, because he has a "prettier" package than the finalists.
     
  8. rkane1226

    rkane1226 Member+

    Apr 9, 2000
    Club:
    Stade Brestois 29
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    From the mlsnet.com team statistics


    UNF POS PLAYER GP GS MIN G A PTS SHT SOG BLK FC FS OFF CK C E

    8 FWD Damani Ralph 25 22 1985 11 6 28 91 36 0 29 56 22 0 1 0

    11 FWD Pat Noonan 28 17 1646 10 7 27 44 24 0 22 37 5 3 0


    Doing some math:

    Ralph
    180.45 Min/Goal
    330.83 Min/Assist
    0.12 Goals/Shot
    0.40 SOG/SHT
    0.31 Goals/SOG

    Noonan
    164.60 Min/Goal
    235.14 Min/Assist
    0.23 Goals/Shot
    0.55 SOG/SHT
    0.42 Goals/SOG


    Noonan scores more often per minute played [oh but they were agains NY] than Ralph
    Noonan provides assists more frequently than Ralph
    When he shoots, Noonan is on frame more often than Ralph
    Noonan converts more of his shots on goal than Ralph

    Now, lets get back to Joseph for ROY...

    It sure would be nice to be able to post tables on BigSoccer...
     
  9. Brazile

    Brazile Member

    Mar 12, 2000
    Arlington, MA, USA
    Ugh. Is that what they're, um, measuring now? My goodness me.
     
  10. soccertim

    soccertim Member

    Mar 29, 2001
    Mass
    Yikes! That's what I get for quoting without thinking...
     
  11. lethargytartare

    lethargytartare Member+

    Oct 2, 2000
    Magrathea, Horsehead Nebula
    Club:
    Yeovil Town FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Scotland
    Originally posted by soccertim
    Funny how the "Ralph for ROY" all seem to include his Open Cup play, to make up for any weak spots in his league play...

    funny that none of you mentione that Noonan was a no-show in your open cup "run" - the point isn't that open cup stats should enter into the judging, just that Damani was still performing at a high level even when he wasn't scoring goals in the league.

    Noonan's scored at this pace since he was put into the lineup. Ralph's the one who's production tailed off as the season went on. At least we're willing to admit Noonan didn't do it for the whole season. The Ralph supporters are all busy trying to pretend that the whole 1 goal in 2 months thing didn't happen.

    Again, that ignores the fact that in that two month stretch, Damani scored goals in 2 open cup matches that the team clearly took more seriously than the league matches at the time. Include those games, and you'll see that he didn't really "tail off" all that much. He scored in every month of the season, and scored in 10 different matches, compared to Noonan's 7. I'll accept that Noonan's late move to striker contributes to this, but your arguments all seem pointed at "Ralph was great for 3 months and then he disappeared" which just isn't true.

    So, Ralph deserves the ROY award becaus epeople think that he's got more potential? Makes about as much sense as the rest of your argument.

    or as much sense as you taking one part of a larger statement and presenting it as my entire argument?
    People that do this for a living rate Ralph higher than Noonan (which, admittedly, in this league may mean less than it should), I was just exploring some of the reasons why they might do so. Having seen the majority of Ralph's matches, and several of Noonan's, I already know why.

    m
     
  12. Gregor

    Gregor New Member

    Jun 23, 1999
    Boston, MA USA
    re: Noonan v. Mutts

    We must consider that Noonan's continued success against the Mutts defense (which statistically was better than Chicago's) indicates just how good Noonan has played, rather than assuming that it diminishes his accomplishments. As a defense plays continuous minutes against a striker, it is usually the striker that suffers as result because the defense learns his moves and tendencies. As we all know, it's easier to destroy than to create. It's why the MLS has yet to see back to back 20 goal seasons from one of its strikers (well that and Twellman's broken foot). Now consider, in 4 straight games a pretty good defense failed to shut Noonan down. I find that impressive.
     
  13. monop_poly

    monop_poly Member

    May 17, 2002
    Chicago
    Tonight will settle the only ROY argument that counts.
     
  14. soccertim

    soccertim Member

    Mar 29, 2001
    Mass
    So, if Open Cup play counts toward ROY, Ralph has a slight advantage. If it doesn't, it's a pretty even race. Ralph made it into the starting lineup much earlier than Noonan, and, due to his longer playing time, has slightly better statistics. Noonan played much of the year backing up Ralston and Kamler, but was more productive than Ralph in terms of goals per shot or goals per minute, and much more productive (goals per minute) as a striker. Ralph is faster, more athletic, and has scored some of the more exciting goals in MLS this year. Noonan is a very clever passer and probably sees the game a little better than Ralph, and has had highlight-worthy assists this year. While Ralph has produced more consistantly this year, Noonan has been more of a dominant scorer recently than Ralph was at any point this year (led the league in scoring since August, MLS player of the month). I think that the case for Ralph is no stronger than the case for Noonan, if it's as strong.
     
  15. lethargytartare

    lethargytartare Member+

    Oct 2, 2000
    Magrathea, Horsehead Nebula
    Club:
    Yeovil Town FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Scotland
    This is by far the most balanced, reasonable analysis I've heard from anybody (including me) about this whole subplot. I agree 100% with the entire thing, except, of course, my conclusion from the exact same data is that the case for Noonan is no stronger than the case for Ralph, if it's as strong. And that has nothing to do with the team I support. ;-)

    m
     
  16. ProfZodiac

    ProfZodiac Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 17, 2003
    Boston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Indeed. Revs win, Noonan gets it, BS'ers are pissed. Fire win, Damani gets it, BS'ers are pissed.
     
  17. monop_poly

    monop_poly Member

    May 17, 2002
    Chicago
    Is happiness impossible on BigSoccer? ;)


    FIRE FIRE FIRE FIRE GO, FIRE GO, FIRE GO.
     
  18. strider026

    strider026 New Member

    Aug 7, 2002
    Huh
    My intention is not to troll.

    It is tougher to be a rookie defender. How do Dunivant and Borchers get left out of this?
     
  19. Feldspar

    Feldspar Member+

    Nov 19, 1998
    Boston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ah, but it's easier to destroy than it is to create, and destruction is the defender's calling - destroy all goal-scoring chances....
     
  20. strider026

    strider026 New Member

    Aug 7, 2002
    Huh
    Pardon me but forwards tend to be in their prime in their early twenties. Defensemen much later.
     
  21. soccertim

    soccertim Member

    Mar 29, 2001
    Mass
    This is a Noonan vs Ralph thread. My choice for ROY (by quite a bit) is Shalrie Joseph, although I'm not altogether sure that he's eligible.
     
  22. Rodan

    Rodan New Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Providence
    Oh well, to the victor go the spoils.

    Patty had a great season though.
     

Share This Page