The case for Pat Noonan as RoY

Discussion in 'New England Revolution' started by John Lewis, Nov 11, 2003.

  1. John Lewis

    John Lewis New Member

    Mar 15, 2000
    Boston
    I posted this in another thread, but it occured to me that this topic deserved its own space...

    Pat Noon scored a goal every 164 minutes during the 2003 season, despite playing a bunch of minutes at the beginning of the season as a flank midfielder. Damani Ralph, a great and deserving player, scored a goal every 180 minutes all of which were spent as an out-and-out striker. Ralph was great. Noonan was better.

    I also think it's too bad that players like Ricardo Clark and Shalrie Joseph, who were both pillars of any success their teams had in 2003, will never get the consideration they deserve because they're simply not in positions that afford them the opportunity to ripple the back of the net with any regularity.
     
  2. firstshirt

    firstshirt Member+

    Mar 1, 2000
    Ellington, CT / NK, RI
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    no arguement from me. Given the situation and the fact that he was the go to guy when Taylor went down and came thru, I think Noonan deserves the award...that said Ralph will win it hands down. I think Noonan is just being overlooked by everyone and they don't see the big picture
     
  3. Rodan

    Rodan New Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Providence
    From what I've seen Damani Ralph looks like an excellent player.

    But Pat Noonan's contribution has probably been more essential to his team than the Ralph's (who has had the benefit of playing Razov all year) was to his .

    Their stats are neck-and-neck, although Noonan gets the nod if you consider points per minute played.

    I say, whoever plays better in the next game gets it. Winner take all.
     
  4. Bethany

    Bethany New Member

    Sep 3, 2002
    I'm not defending Ralph just for the sake I'm a Fire fan but...

    While Noonan was your "go to" guy when Twellman went, Ralph was our "go to" guy when Faria left.

    I think it's wrong to say points per minute or goals per minute is the end all be all to this award. Dunivant, Magee, Clark, and tons others have contributed a great amount this year. Martino only had 2 goals and 5 assists last year, and he won it. I wish that people would look more at the player's contribution as a whole rather than just the numbers.

    In the end, I still have to go with Ralph. But Noonan is damn close.
     
  5. thurd

    thurd New Member

    Jul 31, 2001
    Melrose, MA
    ralph was your go to guy? what about razov, isnt he favored to win the mvp trophy? thats go to if you ask me
     
  6. Bryan Gividen

    Bryan Gividen New Member

    Mar 8, 2003
    Provo, UT (BYU)
    Razov is definitely not the front runner for MVP, Preki is favored far and away ahead of him. (Well, I retract that... not far and away, but has significant market share...). Ralph is part of the reason that Razov won't be MVP. MVP and Rookie of the Year are judged slightly different. MVP is "What player comparitively is the most important?" In other words, if we took this guy away, what does a team look like? Rookie of the Year is simply which Rookie looks like he has the most potential and takes the league by storm.

    I like Noonan (Twellman is far and away my favorite forward and Noonan is shaping up to be my second...) but Ralph deserves the honor.
     
  7. Rev-eler

    Rev-eler Member

    Feb 13, 2000
    San Francisco
    i suppose i sorta' appreciate the overall tone of firegirl's response.....however, i think there's a huge difference between filling in for twellman and filling in for faria. ralph clearly had razov to deflect most of opposing defenses attention away from him (especially when he started getting the bulk of his p.t. which was when most of his goals were scored in the first place...mid year).

    However, Noonan only started as a forward 3x with twellman. he scored once. The bulk of his goals came while paired up with fabbro.....not exactly the big focal point for many defensive schemes i'd say. [god, i hate writing anything that gives any hint of credit to razov]. and how many pk's did ralph have?

    that being said, ralph's goals seemed to carry more "flair" to them...which will suck a lot of votes his way. he's bigger and ultimately more attractive to watch. all that plays into this.

    i really wish they had "assists" of the year..b/c i think noonan may have had 2 or 3 in the top 5.
    ;)
     
  8. Rodan

    Rodan New Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Providence
    That a really intersting point of view. And if that were the only way of looking at things, you might have me convinced.

    But then again, goals don't lie. Ralph is certainly a more aesthetic balance of speed, strength, power, and skill. But Noonan has managed through guile, field awareness, and finishing ability to match him, under arguably greater defensive pressure (since he's never been paired with a front-runner of Razov's caliber -except for a few games with Twellman) to score as many goals in fewer minutes.

    So here it is again. Whoever plays better in the Eastern Championship is Rook of the Year. Push goes to Ralph since he scored more goals in Open Cup play.
     
  9. JMMUSA8

    JMMUSA8 New Member

    Nov 3, 2001
    Webster
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ralph will get it cause he broke a record and he did his scoring early, which is totally unfair because I'll take Noonan over Ralph anyday of the week and twice on gamedays (I heard that somewhere, props to whoever says that). Noonan is about equal when it comes to statistics, but if you look at the scenarios, who shined the most? Who proved to their team and MLS fans that they can rise above and be the best rookie? Having Razov as your strikin partner will help you get 11 goals. Having Fabbroas your parter wont get you the same as having Razov. A hypothetical situation; Razov and Ralph played 2700 minutes together all year (30 90-minute games), between them, i would give them 30-35 goals. Twellman and Noonan in the same scenario, honestly, with no homerism, 35-40 goals. Noonan isn't the type who just winds up and takes a shot from 25 yards up and hopes it is on frame. Noonan also doesnt have blazing speed, yet he still gets the ball in the box, beats defenders (Pope) and puts his team on the board. I really hope people who vote for ROTY read Bigsoccer, especially this thread. Don't take a quick glance on statistics. Read into the scenarios with each player (Dunivant, Clark, Magee, Noonan, Ralph, etc) and choose the one who shined. Choose the one who did what rookies aren't suppose to do, which is taking over the team. Which rookie did what Twellman and Ruiz did last year? An educated sports fan would have to choose Noonan.
     
  10. The Magpie

    The Magpie Member

    Nov 19, 1998
    Cambridge, MA
    "D'oh! It's so hard to figure out!"

    [​IMG]


    Damani Ralph: 2003 Regular & Post-season Combined Stats (through 11/11/03)

    27 Games Played, 24 Games Started, 2157 total minutes
    12 goals, 6 assists, 30 points
    97 shots,37 on goal
    31 fouls called against, 1 caution, 0 ejections.


    Pat Noonan: 2003 Regular & Post-season Combined Stats (through 11/11/03)

    30 Games Played, 19 Games Started, 1826 total minutes
    12 goals, 7 assists, 31 points
    51 shots, 28 on goal
    27 fouls called against, 0 cautions, 0 ejections

    Ralph played a total of 3.68 more games than Noonan over the course of the 2003 season, this including those minutes accrued during the post-season. That being understood, Noonan has the better strike rate and a slight edge in total points.

    "There's only one solution to all this!"

    [​IMG]

    "Let Ralph and Noonan deservedly be named Co-Rookies of the Year."

    The Magpie
     
  11. MouseyTongue

    MouseyTongue New Member

    Feb 16, 2001
    a box in the Chairma
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This whole discussion including the lobbying of voters would be so much more interesting if the name of the winner wasn't already hermetically sealed in a mayonaise jar on Funk and Wagnell's back porch. Seriously, aren't the ballots already in? And thus aren't the "finalists" as listed on MLSnet for year end awards (save goal of the year which is based on on-line voting) are simply the highest vote getters?

    I believe this was addressed on a prior thread, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  12. Feldspar

    Feldspar Member+

    Nov 19, 1998
    Boston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seems to me that Ralph wins out since the majority of Noonan's goals came against the Mutts, while Ralph victimized more teams.
     
  13. Rodan

    Rodan New Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Providence
    Relevence?
     
  14. John Lewis

    John Lewis New Member

    Mar 15, 2000
    Boston
    Whoever said this was a homer thread (I think it was Mike Segroves) hit the nail squarely on the head, but let's come at it from a different point of view. Let's chuck out the Noonan vs. Ralph debate. I mean, at the end of the day, both players have New England connections. Noonan's are obvious. He plays here now. Ralph played for Ray Reid at UConn and took them to the Final Eight last year. So we can be proud either way...

    BUT

    What if we try to decide who had a greater impact on the Revolution's season, Pat Noonan or Shalrie Joseph?

    Yes, Noonan scored a lot of goals in a relatively short period of time, but Shalrie was an integral member of the squad almost from the start. His dominating performances allowed the team to cut ties with Daniel Hernandez and move to a diamond-shaped midfield with Pepe Cancela pulling the strings. He won more 50/50 balls than any other player on the team, and allowed them to play possession soccer for the first time in about seven years.

    What Shalrie Joseph does is less glamorous than what Pat Noonan does, but it is, at the end of the day, more important.

    Discuss.

    Oh, and don't even bring up Ricardo Clark...thanks.
     
  15. Coach_Barry

    Coach_Barry Member

    Aug 18, 2001
    Taunton, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What John said...

    any day of the week and twice on gamedays!

    Shalrie is my ROY.
     
  16. BigFrank

    BigFrank New Member

    Apr 3, 1999
    Dublin, Ireland
    The case for Pat Noonan?
    Sorry, case dismissed.

    I like Noonan, but he's not even the best rookie on the Revos.
    It is Shalrie Joseph, by a country mile. Any country.

    Noonan vs. Ralph?

    Anyone that has seen them play this season, and would take Noonan now, would never get a coaching or scouting job.

    This is not meant to denigrate Noonan.
    He is a good player and has done very well.
    But this is not a beauty contest that he can contest, let alone should win.
     
  17. ProfZodiac

    ProfZodiac Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 17, 2003
    Boston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As much as I will take flak for this, I rank Noonan #1 among the Revs and Shalrie #2. True enough, what Shalrie did was of utmost importance, but without Noonan, the Revs would not have made the playoffs, let alone the ECF. Personally, I think Cullen could have stepped into DH's shoes. Not as effectively as Shalrie, I will readily concede, but he could have done it. Noonan, however, has been irreplacable. He stepped into shoes much bigger than Daniel "The Mouth" Hernandez. Noonan is doing what Twellman needed to. Shalrie indirectly puts numbers on the scoreboard. Look at MLSnet.com, and I believe he's committed the most fouls this season. Noonan directly puts numbers on the scoreboard, and I think it was posted earlier he's got, what, 25 fouls total?

    Shalrie has been incredible, but Noonan has been a little more valuable, IMHO.
     
  18. JMMUSA8

    JMMUSA8 New Member

    Nov 3, 2001
    Webster
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If Joesph is a rookie, then he is rookie of the year. He should be in the Best XI. But I'm not sure if his one year with Brooklyn will eliminate him. Is it one or two years of pro soccer that disqualifies you as ROTY.
     
  19. Rev-eler

    Rev-eler Member

    Feb 13, 2000
    San Francisco
    i know you're saying "now". but, i find it interesting....nicol saw them both extensively at the superdraft combine. how's that workin' out for nicol's career, eh? and the fire took nate jacqua with the third overall pick (ahead of the late 2nd round ralph).

    look, there's no doubt he can play. however, seeing the stats....he's like mls' allen iverson. 1/3 of his total shots are "on goal". and, 1/3 of those make it in. noonan has closer to 60% and 40+%. one would hope that if you take 100 shots that at least 12 are going to go in...no? hey, and one of those was a pk.

    again, not necessarily saying that noonan should win this thing. just sick of people (esp the tv media) so overwhelmingly in love with this guy. it took taylor 2 seasons to show that he can be productive with his game. lets see if ralph can pull it out. remember, as soon as opp teams found out he was scoring and put a target on ralph's back....his shots went up and productivity fell off.
     
  20. The Magpie

    The Magpie Member

    Nov 19, 1998
    Cambridge, MA
    Originally posted by BigFrank

    The case for Pat Noonan?
    Sorry, case dismissed.


    Case re-opened on appeal: this thread is about making the case for Pat Noonan, not Shalrie Joseph. That being understood, Joseph has had an outstanding season and isn't getting due credit, perhaps because he doesn't play at a position that's more receptive to garnering attention, and perhaps because like it or not, Joseph isn't a true rookie, having played for the New York Freedoms of the USL's D-3 Professional League back in 2002.

    It's his first year playing in MLS, and as such, shouldn't be considered a rookie.

    The Magpie
     
  21. Rodan

    Rodan New Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Providence
    [hand raised]
    Excuse me...but what ARE you talking about?
    And this is supposed to be a bad thing? ;)

    Care to throw in an occasional reason or justification with your somewhat bombastic assertions?

    Are you saying Ralph is a lock for ROY because he *looks* like a better player?

    Word to the wise: look at the stats Magpie put together. This ain't no slam dunk - for either guy.
     
  22. BigFrank

    BigFrank New Member

    Apr 3, 1999
    Dublin, Ireland
    Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics

    Noi general manager in their right mind would ever trade Joseph or Ralph even up for Noonan.

    Combines are crap shoots. Virtually worthless, like the Revos team in Year 1 that was picked from one without any real scouting, insight or knowledge of how someone actually plays soccer.

    Nicol made a mistake. So did everyone else that passed Ralph by in the draft.
    After seeing players compete in the same league for a season, think anyone would make that same mistake today?

    I mean, besides some Revos fans that look at the colour of a player's shirt first and how he plays second when making their value judgments.

    I hope that Noonan outshines Ralph on Friday night.
    Noonan is a good player, but Ralph is a better player with even more potential.

    Joseph isn't getting the credit that he deserves. Some of it has to do with the position he plays. Some of it has to do with some people not being able to look beyond a scoresheet to make their judgments.

    If Joseph is eligible then the case should be made for him!
     
  23. Rodan

    Rodan New Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Providence
    Edited for civility.

    Player evaluation is never just that simple. Ralph is having a great season - so is Noonan. Care to look back over the Leagues past ROYs and assess how many have been busts (Mike Duhaney ring any bells)?

    The reason: you can't tell a player's overall worth based on any single season - especially his rookie year. So we may not know even until the end of next season who's a better player. In the mean time, all we've got to go by is stats, observations, and opinions. That's what we're all working with - even the most pontifical among us.
     
  24. John Lewis

    John Lewis New Member

    Mar 15, 2000
    Boston
    Re: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics

    I think it's very clever the way you eschew making reasoned arguments altogether and instead just state your opinions as if they were facts.

    Oh wait...no I don't.
     
  25. firesting81

    firesting81 Member

    Jan 16, 2001
    Cedar Rapids, Iowa
    Ha Ha Ha! You got me good there! You know, I almost believed you were serious! Especially with the "did his scoring early" bit. No one would would be dumb enough to overlook Ralph's late season heroics in the U.S. Open Cup. Plus, Noonan got a hat-trick at the end of the year when he wasn't nearly the known commodity Damani was. Not to take from Noonan's great acievements, but start TO finish it has clearly been Damani (just for those who didn't catch the author's humor here).

    JMMUSA8, I think you'd make a fine addition to The Onion news staff. You are one funny S.O.B!
     

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