The BL amateur teams in the Regional liga.

Discussion in 'Germany' started by Adrian P., Sep 18, 2003.

  1. aloisius

    aloisius Member

    Jul 5, 2003
    Croatia
    Adrian, I agree that Germany could support more than 36 pro teams. But most of the regional liga teams are professional anyway. So I don’t think calling it officially professional would change much. What would change things would be a merger between the two RL and the creation of the 3. bundesliga. I’m pretty sure it will happen, it’s only a matter time.
    I really don’t see any benefits of expanding to 20. As I already stated it lowers the standard of competition. And do you really want more games? Everyone applauded UEFA for taking out 4 games out of the CL schedule and now you want to make up for that by adding 4 games to the BL? Don’t quite get that. 20 team league also means that 4-5 teams have absolutely nothing to play for more than a month before the end of the season. The number fully pro clubs can increase through merger of the regional leagues on the 3. and 4. level. You don’t have to expand leagues to expand the business as you called it.
    As for the reserve teams…. Barca,Real and Atletico play their reserve teams in the Spanish 2. division. Haven’t heard anyone complain about that. But they are not allowed to play the 1. team players while they are suspended or returning from injury. Very simple solution.
    And about the German lower league stadiums… Gladbach is going to have the best division 2 stadium in the world next year
     
  2. aloisius

    aloisius Member

    Jul 5, 2003
    Croatia
    BTW ,how do you put icons in the specific part of the text?
     
  3. Adrian P.

    Adrian P. New Member

    Jul 2, 2003
    Copenhagen Denmark
    Yeah... I also want to find out how you show images on a thread.
     
  4. fuxer

    fuxer New Member

    Feb 5, 2000
    it is not that easy like you say.
    in mainz for example they played offencive exiting soccer first. thats why the people come to watch the games and that´s the reason they build a new stadium because the old was to small.
    just building a new stadium isn´t enough.
    and do you know the reason why they have so much young talented players? because the amateurs of mainz05 play in regionalliga. this is a perfect league to develop good young players.

    now the club has a new problem. they need to go up in 1.bundesliga. if they will not go up the next 2 years they have to sell all players because they will have no money to pay them. than it´s all over.
    just because they builded a new stadium!!!
     
  5. Adrian P.

    Adrian P. New Member

    Jul 2, 2003
    Copenhagen Denmark
    Well youre actually right as said earlier they will have economic problem offcourse they will it's like buying a new car (Well only almost), one day the loans are paid that was what I was talking about.

    Everything come out on what you see as coming first, the facilities to get fans, or the fans first...... I just wanted to point out that If Germany didn't have to host a Worldcup also the Bigclubs would have stadiums that sucks.

    Many people think on this board that it's not a good idea to build a smart new stadium.

    Take the Danish Club Viborg a town with les than 28000 inhabitants absolutely a lousy stadium under 2000 came every weekend even they played like gods, they build asupercool new stadium for 10k and there play suck totally but they have 5700 in average. What I wants to say that many of us on this board are already fanatic fans and would go to stadium even it's crap and then we call it a lifestyle....... but to expand getting new fans paying alot more you have to build a new stadium with excellent facilities to lure a fasmily with Father mother and both kids out. Many people are thinking practically nowadays like buying a wan instead of a cool car so the small kids can sit comfortable.

    I am just saying that new smart stadiums do actually help in getting more people out and believe me people don't show up because of Mainz play (well also that).
     
  6. Eisern Union

    Eisern Union New Member

    Jul 4, 2002
    Berlin
    @ Olaf
    I didn't make the argument that 18 teams is better that 20 because it would lower the quality of the Bundesliga. That was aloisious. I made the argument that fixture congestion hurt the quality of play at the last World Cup. You pointed to the expansion of the World Cup field. Point well taken, but I was actually refering to the lower quality of the major teams. France is the obvious example, but even among the teams that enjoyed some success, the overall quality of play was low and this was partially a result of players being tired because they had played too many games before the tournament.

    I also hold no illusions that the Bundesliga clubs would approve my idea of seperating the promotion and relagation of reserves from the promotion and relagation of non-reserve teams or that they would approve a tightening of the rules regarding eligibility. That was what I think should happen, not what I think will happen.

    @ Adrian
    To say there are only 36 professional teams is not really true. Although all teams not in the 1. and 2. Bundesliga are classified as Amature, that is in name only. In practice, there are as many professional teams as there are teams who want to be professional.

    As for the stadiums, we'd all like new stadiums for our teams, but someone has to pay for them. I suppose we could get into a discussion about public financing, etc., but especially at a time when Germany is facing large budget deficits and a recession, it is difficult to conjure stadiums out of thin air.

    @ Alex
    One of the quotes that you attributed to me was actually posted by Adrian. I disagree with what he posted, so I want to make it clear that I did not post it.
     
  7. Alex_K

    Alex_K Member+

    Mar 23, 2002
    Braunschweig, Germany
    Club:
    Eintracht Braunschweig
    Nat'l Team:
    Bhutan
    Sorry, looks like i forgot to change the "original posted by..."-line.
     
  8. Adrian P.

    Adrian P. New Member

    Jul 2, 2003
    Copenhagen Denmark
    But Esern Union what do you think about the Jade stadium in Wilhelmshaven.... small capacity but smart, cheap and cool perfect for lower divisions or what?
     
  9. fuxer

    fuxer New Member

    Feb 5, 2000
    @ adrian.
    you are absolutly right with everything you said. but like eisern said before. who should pay these new stadiums? we are absolutly happy about our new worldcup stadiums. that´s a big chance for german soccer. and because other clubs without wc stadiums don´t want to loose contact to the clubs with wc stadium they also building new ones. like gladbach, duisburg, cotbus, mainz ...

    there are so many clubs with a high fan potential (spell?) but without any money. so they have to play in division 4 or 5. that´s very sad but it has a reason why these clubs has no money. most of them are or was corrupt.

    i don´t like to much commerce in soccer. if someone don´t like the stadiums because they aren´t confortable enough he should go to a tennis match. watching soccer is a lot more than just entertainment and staying in the dirt (like in mainz 2 years ago) is also funny ;-)

    normaly i am not conservative but in soccer i am :)
     
  10. Adrian P.

    Adrian P. New Member

    Jul 2, 2003
    Copenhagen Denmark
    I see your point, I'm not fond of old crappy stadiums, but prefers the modern tendency, but I must admit that the New German 1BL stadiums have found a good balance between modern comfort and old fashion sound. I think it's cool that you have been able to also have standings, just like in modern Danish stadiums.

    Dutch Stadiums and English stadiums have killed the standings.
    But I must admit that when I go to stadium with my girlfriend I have to sit at some seats.
     
  11. Eisern Union

    Eisern Union New Member

    Jul 4, 2002
    Berlin
    I've never seen the Wilhelmshaven stadium, so this is pure conjecture. 'Small, smart stadiums' are certainly appropriate for some teams, but there is a problem. Why would a 2. Bundesliga team build a 10,000 capacity stadium when that stadium would not be good enough for play in the 1. Bundesliga, where most 2. Bundesliga teams want to be? Why would a regionaliga or oberliga team pay a lot of money they don't have for a 'small, smart stadium' when increases in attendence at that level are measured in the hundreds, not the thousands? Fans at that level have to be dedicated and aren't as likely to be swayed by stadiums as fans for larger clubs are.

    We are currently trying to build a new stadium for Union Berlin. The latest proposal is 30,000 capacity payed for by 1/3 each for the club, the city, and the EU. Problem is, the club is broke, the city is bankrupt, and why should the EU pay for stadiums? Moreover, why should the city pay for a stadium that will only be used by one club when they have just renovated the Olympic Stadium as well as a 25,000 seat multi-purpose stadium elsewhere in the city? I'd love to have a new stadium (we'll never be a 1. Bundesliga team without it), but I'm not going to ask schools in Berlin to close and roads in Lithuania not to be built in order to get it.
     
  12. Eisern Union

    Eisern Union New Member

    Jul 4, 2002
    Berlin
    Also, new modern stadiums are not always the best. Where would you honestly rather watch a game, Schalke or Dortmund?
     
  13. Adrian P.

    Adrian P. New Member

    Jul 2, 2003
    Copenhagen Denmark
    Okay I must admit that among the old stadiums in Germany Unions stadium are the most cool one, Having four sides of high concrete terraces really gives the stadium a atmosphere.

    How will a gradually renovated stadium be, I mean You can add a new tier or new stand when needed, take many English stadiums, they have taken one stand at a time through 10-15 year, this would be cheaper and more flexible.

    It seems a bit to me that many in Germany either considers a completely new stadium or a dumbyard, there fore according to you question about Schalke and Dortmund yes Westfalenstadium is cool

    But when said Jade in Wilhelmshave are really cool though holding only 6 or 8 k you can find pics of it in Stadionwelt.de
     
  14. olafgb

    olafgb New Member

    Jun 6, 2001
    Germany
    I don't have to hesitate a single second: Schalke, of course, they have one of the world's best stadiums. And this is the best example for Adrian's thesis: Schalke in the Park Stadium = 25.000 average, Schalke in the Arena Auf Schalke = 60.000 average.


    Btw, there are minimum requirements for stadiums. Usually you'll get extra permissions for a couple of season though... Bundesliga e.g. requires 15.000 capacity, Regionalliga demands 10.000. In Regionalliga you will find lots of clubs having the capacity due to the terraces, but standing tickets don't bring money to the wallets. Regionalliga doesn't handle it strictly though and donates lots of special permits, otherwise many clubs would not match the requirements. Oberliga Nordrhein recently thought about strict criteria for stadiums without a possibility for special permits - they wanted 10.000 stadiums only, which would mean that lots of clubs would relegate, some D5 clubs could not promote and some D3 relegating clubs would directly go to D5 without a chance to return...

    But of course new stadiums are no guarantee for crowded houses. Wilhelmshaven is the top example, they don't even have 1.000 in the average. Without success/perspectives the clubs aren't able to recruit new fans.
     
  15. Eisern Union

    Eisern Union New Member

    Jul 4, 2002
    Berlin
    I wasn't comparing Park Stadion with Arena Auf Schalke, I was comparing Westphalenstadion with Arena Auf Schalke. Personally, I consider soccer indoors to be an offense against nature. It's just plain wrong. That's my personal opinion.

    Regardless, however, I think very many people would argue that the 'old' Westphalenstadion is a better place to watch a game than the ultramodern Arena.

    As for Adrian's thesis, I agree to a point, especially at the top level. I cannot fathom why Bayer plays where they do. This, however, has more to do with capacity than with modernity. An old stadium can be great and a new stadium can be crap, and a Bundesliga team playing in a 20,000 seat stadium is madness. My problems with his thesis have to do with feasibility (money), relative gains (low attendance at Wilhemshaven seems to bear this out), and a rejection of tradion.
     
  16. Adrian P.

    Adrian P. New Member

    Jul 2, 2003
    Copenhagen Denmark
    What is actually the reason that Bayer stadium are so small?

    I was wondering what if the lower league clubs made new stadiums in same way as Spanish lower league stadiums? So instead of Earth or Concrete terraces (I think Wormatia have clay Terraces right?), they make a bowl stadium of concrete with no seats or roof just standings, in this way you get cheap stadiums, but are enclosed, have some kind of modernity, while still being an all stander. This would max cost half million euro.

    But I also somehow think it's wierd that Meiderische will built a completely new 30+k stadium but instead could built 2 new stands and still using the old stand? But I must say that with all the possibilities the modern man have for leisure one of the few way you can attract people that usually don't go to stadium are new stadiums.

    I had a discussion with a greek guy about this and he said that almost all greeks supported a football team, but virtually no one went on stadium cause of one reason, bad stadiums...... think about teams as Panathinaikos and AEK athens have under 10k in average cause the stadiums sucks, so they badly waited for the new stadiums. A guy on the Portugues board said the same about the Portuguese league, now I know that lower German leagues are bit different than Premier leagues in smaller countries.... but still....
     
  17. olafgb

    olafgb New Member

    Jun 6, 2001
    Germany
    Eisern Union: I know that you weren't comparing the two Schalke stadiums - as I mentioned, this was just a side remark proving Adrian's thesis that a new stadium increases the attendance.

    You are describing the clash we are having right now between traditionalists and the modern soccer fan. The traditionalists are kind of a relict of the 80s, prefer to stand, travel to road games and have a very idealistic view of soccer. The modern soccer fan sees the game as entertainment (in business terms a soccer club is nothing but a services enterprise in the entertainment sector), pays good money for it, prefers seats and comfort. Usually he doesn't identify less with the club, but his view is less idealistic. The clubs have the problem that the traditionalists are well organised ("Pro 15:30", who are the self-announced speaker for all fans) and care for the atmosphere, but the other ones are those with the money.

    Btw. we have rules determining the requirements to play soccer - there is no rule saying "soccer has to be played on natural grass outdoors" or something like that.

    Adrian: Bayer's stadium was renovated in the late 70s from a ruin to a modern 26.500 capacity stadium. At that time Bayer practically had no fans outside Leverkusen, the attendance was below 10.000 and the development could not be expected. At some point they replaced the standing spots by seats and that's why there are 22.500 now. There are plans for modernising, but there is no space for a major extension plus it would destroy the unit of the architecture, which is a big plus in Leverkusen. Lately there were also rumours that Bayer wants to build a new stadium as part of their co-operation with Anschutz, but I don't believe that as in this case the recent improvements like new VIP and office building, fan shop and hotel would be wasted money.

    The problem with modernising is that it practically isn't worth to invest in standing spots as it nearly is impossible to get the money back. Standing tickets don't attract new fans and especially the very cheap and unroofed ones cause high maintenance costs. St Pauli's fans practically were burying their club by chasing the President away, who wanted to build a new stadium; all they can do now is to modernise again and again to match the league requirements (no permit for Bundesliga anymore, special permit for 2.Bundesliga), but the situation will never improve due not increasing the income possibilities - quite in contrast, the maintenance costs will get higher and higher.

    Duisburg... well, not sure if they need a new stadium. The old one was crap, but if they think that it's worth to buy a new one... I got sympathy for a whole new stadium though as simply putting four stands somewhere in the landscape (as Dortmund before closing the corners, as many English stadiums) is an architectural crime.
     
  18. Eisern Union

    Eisern Union New Member

    Jul 4, 2002
    Berlin
    Just to be clear, I'm not against new stadiums. I just realize that they are not always possible at the snap of a finger and that sometimes a new stadium is not an improvement on an old stadium. I come from a city that has used 3 baseball stadiums since 1976. I've gotten a bit wary of the theory that says 'our team isn't doing well, let's build a new stadium and all is solved.'

    You are absolutely correct that soccer is now a major business, and the business model requires attracting the 'modern fan' with amenities. My comment about Schalke was a personal one. Regardless of the rules, I do not want to see soccer played indoors. I want to see it played outdoors on natural grass. Others will disagree. Fine. I have no regrets calling mayself a traditionalist when it comes to sports.
     
  19. Adrian P.

    Adrian P. New Member

    Jul 2, 2003
    Copenhagen Denmark
    Okay 3 baseball stadiums since 1976 thats very bad!!
     

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