The BL amateur teams in the Regional liga.

Discussion in 'Germany' started by Adrian P., Sep 18, 2003.

  1. Adrian P.

    Adrian P. New Member

    Jul 2, 2003
    Copenhagen Denmark
    I am aware that the regional liga officially are a amateur liga and therefore the reserves of the Bundesliga teams are allowed to play in the regional liga, but I see a huge problem for the German liga that after the cutting of Regional leagues from 4 to 2 the percentage of BL reserves have risen and nobody wants to attend reserve games.

    Isn't it a problem that the gap between BL and amateur teams are so big that the BL reserves are much better than old Traditionsvereins.... surely this must kill the advance of the league.

    If you see in England the reserve teams are not even alllowed to play in their normal leagues and therefore you see huge league averages in 5th level.

    Wouldn't it be better to kick the reserves out of the Regional leagues and give the spots to other Traditionsveriens playing in the Oberliga?

    What do you Germans think?
     
  2. olafgb

    olafgb New Member

    Jun 6, 2001
    Germany
    You are very right, the pro reserves are a big problem in Regionalliga. They have no fans, nobody wants to see them play on the road - the attractiveness of the league is suffering a lot. Right now there are 8 of 36 clubs pro reserves, but almost everywhere in D4 the reserves are playing for a promotion spot. In D4 those clubs are smaller trouble as otherwise you usually play other unattractive rural teams, but also there still is the problem that the clubs in D4 can't keep pace with the finances of the pro reserves. In return, the problem for Bundesliga clubs is that they can't grow talents in D4 as the league gap is too big.

    IMO there can only be two solutions: playing an own reserve league or abandon reserve teams for the sake of co-operations with amateur teams (possible in various modes). They tried an own reserve league a couple of years ago, but it failed due to lacking interest of fans as well as the huge quality differences between the single reserve teams. After one year they cut the try down again.
     
  3. Alex_K

    Alex_K Member+

    Mar 23, 2002
    Braunschweig, Germany
    Club:
    Eintracht Braunschweig
    Nat'l Team:
    Bhutan
    An interesting statistic i read (but don't know if it's true):
    Without the reserves the average attendance of the Regionalliga Nord would rise from a bit over 3000 like it is now to over 5000 per game.
     
  4. Adrian P.

    Adrian P. New Member

    Jul 2, 2003
    Copenhagen Denmark
    Well I think in Denmark the reserves are also playing with the local teams but they are not allowed to go farther than the 4th. league if just you could put all the reserves down to the Oberliga have 36 competitive regional teams and only let the winners of the local Oberliga up which is not a reserve side........ I know that this don't help the competitiveness for the reserve teams but in a 10 years period it might do when the bigger lower divivsion teams as Hessen Kassel or SSV Ulm grow stronger and all the others teams also... besides weaker reserve sides can also make the difference between the BL clubs and the bigger regional league clubs smaller.
     
  5. Adrian P.

    Adrian P. New Member

    Jul 2, 2003
    Copenhagen Denmark
    That the average would go up so much is interesting.

    What was the reason to cut the regional leagues down from 4 to 2 actually to get a more competitive league with more fans? because the gates have been falling since they cut the number down and teams with 3k average before in the regionals only have 500 hundred now in the Oberliga....... if the DFB wanted to cut the number of teams down they should also not have allowed the BL reserves in the cut down league anything else wouldn't give sense.
     
  6. panicfc

    panicfc Member+

    Dec 22, 2000
    In my chair, typing
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So the Regionalliga average is lower than the US A-League :D

    Actually I love threads about lower division action.

    Good stuff Adrian.
     
  7. Adrian P.

    Adrian P. New Member

    Jul 2, 2003
    Copenhagen Denmark
    Panicfc you know that I love to talk about lower divisions :)
     
  8. panicfc

    panicfc Member+

    Dec 22, 2000
    In my chair, typing
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You know me as well.

    Love those lower division stories.
     
  9. Alex_K

    Alex_K Member+

    Mar 23, 2002
    Braunschweig, Germany
    Club:
    Eintracht Braunschweig
    Nat'l Team:
    Bhutan
    The level of play and competition increased dramaticaly. I have to admit that, even if i miss the many derbies you had back then. One example: in 1998 my club Eintracht Braunschweig was second in the Regionalliga Nord with 82 points, the third was 20 or so points behind. TB Berlin won the Regionalliga Nordost with over 90 points and only 7 goals against (in 34 games !). Things like that are very unlikely to happen nowadays, as even the last has a chance to beat the first placed team. The leagues became simply more interesting.

    That's true. The opposition in the OL is simply not as attractive as in the RL. But i think that the attendance in the RL itself has probably increased.
     
  10. Adrian P.

    Adrian P. New Member

    Jul 2, 2003
    Copenhagen Denmark
    Actually I'm not wholly sure if the average has risen in the regional liga after the cut down because I remember to have read in a Kicker Sonderheft (Yes I buy it every year even though i cannot German) that in one of the seasons in one of the 4 regional leagues the average there were a tiny bit higher than Regional liga North at present.
     
  11. Alex_K

    Alex_K Member+

    Mar 23, 2002
    Braunschweig, Germany
    Club:
    Eintracht Braunschweig
    Nat'l Team:
    Bhutan
    I did some research:
    In the last season with 4 regional leagues, the average attendance was 2141 (i couldn't find individual satistics for every league).
    In 2000/2001 the av. attendance had increased to 3152, this year it's 3339 (Nord has usually the higher attendances).

    Last season had the worst attendance since 1999/2000: The Regionalliga had lost 7 of the best attended teams the year before (due to promotion/relegation), while only one new club made the top 10, so 2002/2003 had a quite weak attendance (2679), but was still above the "old" RL.
     
  12. Adrian P.

    Adrian P. New Member

    Jul 2, 2003
    Copenhagen Denmark
    I found an interesting article from 98 were it was said that one of the major reason's the regional league would be cut down to 2 were not to get more fans but primarily because The Northern and Eastern Regions had fewer member clubs so it was more easy for an Northern or Eastern club to promote than a Western or Southern Club. It also says that there plans were therefore to make 3 regional leagues and not 2. So on a later situation it was decided to cut further down to 2 leagues.
     
  13. Alex_K

    Alex_K Member+

    Mar 23, 2002
    Braunschweig, Germany
    Club:
    Eintracht Braunschweig
    Nat'l Team:
    Bhutan
    This isn't entirely correct. In 1994 when the new Regionalliga was founded (the old was the highest level until 1963 and the second level until the late seventies) the DFB had the original plan to play in three groups, North-Northeast, West-Southwest and South. The reason was, like you said that those leagues had represented regions with a comparable number of football clubs. The regional assocciations of Northern and Eastern Germany decided against that, as they didn't want to give up their own 3rd division leagues and so they decided to play in two groups, North and Northeast, but those two leagues had only one promoted team (the champions had two play a play-off game) as they should have played in only one league originally. Whoever said that it was easier for them to promote has no idea what he is talking about: While the 36 team in the west and the south had 3 promoted teams (even the runners-up got a chance) the 36 teams in the North and East had only one promoted team (not even the champions of the league was sure to become promoted).
    This decision was independent from the one in 1998 to reduce the number of leagues to 2, which had only one reason: Money (e.g. less team-more tv money-another big factor). This would have happened anyway, even when they had started with 3 leagues in 1994.
    Realistacally i would say that there are even still too much teams in the 3rd and 4th division (even if i liked the more regional leagues much more, it's simply more fun to play against your neighbours imo). They should make a (officially professional) 3rd Bundesliga with 18 teams (of course without reserves), with a 6 league 4th division Regionalliga below. No Oberliga anymore, below that directly the amateur state leagues. I think that would be the best solutions for the lower levels (and could probably also guarentee even better attendances).
     
  14. Adrian P.

    Adrian P. New Member

    Jul 2, 2003
    Copenhagen Denmark
    Well might be my bad german that made me misunderstand, But I do agree an 3. BL split in North and South without any Reserves would be the best solution and in fact surprises me a lot that this has not heppened considering that the Cut down to 2 regional leagues had to do about money,
    It seems to me that the DFB didn't have the balls to go all the way (I might be wrong) when they had the chance.

    I must also say that It surprises me that when they had the 4 regional leagues that the North weren't sure on promotion when all the fans came from North seems odd to me, I mean why not make the league stronger and more competitive than it already is.

    By the way what are the reason why there only 18 teams in the 1.BL the year were the DDR league were swallowed by the BL they had 20 team which makes sense, but the next year they cut down to 18 teams, I think that was not fair either for DDR teams or the other Pro teams in the Western Germany. The country became bigger and needed more space but instead the space were made smaller.
     
  15. olafgb

    olafgb New Member

    Jun 6, 2001
    Germany
    Removing the pro team reserves from D3 would cause lots of trouble with the pro clubs. DFB isn't in a very good position, especially as there is also some trouble with the pro clubs about NT players and practically DFB is without power (DFL - the pro league administration - is thinking about entirely becoming independent from DFB and a rebelling DFB would enforce this movement).

    There is some weird thinking that leagues have to play with 18 teams. I also would have preferred 20 after integrating the GDR clubs. But also here the pro clubs were for 18 due to some odd reasons (German pros collapse when they have to play as many games as Spanish or English clubs...)
     
  16. aloisius

    aloisius Member

    Jul 5, 2003
    Croatia
    18 is a great number. Adding teams would only water down quality. The consequence of that would be a lot of scores like Wolves-Chelsea 0-5, R. Madrid- Valladolid 7-2… No need for that.
     
  17. Adrian P.

    Adrian P. New Member

    Jul 2, 2003
    Copenhagen Denmark
    No doubt that 18 is a great number to have a league but not realistic..... tink about it Germany a Country with 80 million people have 18 teams in the 1.BL and 18 teams in the 2.BL thats the same things as saying we are not interested in enlarge the league so other clubs and players would have the chance to becaome pro even it could happen.

    Not wanting more employment.... I think that would be almost the only industry not trying to.

    See in England Officially they have 92 Pro leagues and the Conference is a amateur league in 5th level..... but football are becoming more and more popular there so every year more and more amateur team becomes pro there, almost all the conference teams are pro now..... and what is the consequences? That the English FA makes 2 new Conference leagues between the old Conference and the 3 Feeder leagues, said in another word England have a chance to grow 44 more Pro teams than the 114 at the moment..... so why could Germany not think in a way bit like that?
     
  18. Adrian P.

    Adrian P. New Member

    Jul 2, 2003
    Copenhagen Denmark
    What I just wanted to say in the post up there were a bit confusing so I will just coment that It was not that I wanted more leagues in between just that if you say no more than 18 teams you are killing the possibilities to enlarge the league through the years, and the most easy way to do were to start with enlarging to 20 teams.
     
  19. Eisern Union

    Eisern Union New Member

    Jul 4, 2002
    Berlin
    18 is a good number, and not just because UEFA says so. Take a look at the poor quality of play in the last World Cup and then tell me that fixture congestion is not an issue.

    As for the reserve teams in lower divisions, it's a major problem, but simply ending it ignores some of the positives.

    It's much better for player development (aren't reserve sides required to have a certain number of under-23s?) to have your young players in meaningful games. Also, if we end the practice do we also kick the reserve teams out of the verbandsliga, bezirksliga, etc.? Remember, it isn't just the Bundesliga teams that have reserves playing lower down the food chain.

    What we need is first a rule change that addressing the issue of killing the competition in the lower leagues. The Northeast Oberliga this season will be between Hertha Reserves and Hansa Reserves, which is a slap in the face to the other teams in the league. Hertha fielded Luizao for its reserves a couple weeks ago. A World Cup winner playing the in the 4th division is not fair.

    You could force teams to register players for their first or second team and put strict restrictions on the movement between. You could also take the reserve teams out of the promotion/relegation fights (as is done in the regionaliga). You get four (arbitrary number, it could easily be something else) reserve teams in each league and promotion/relegation is decided among themselves. So in the the Northeast Oberliga, if Hertha reserves win, they go up and replace the lowest reserve team in the Regionaliga North AND the top non-reserve team is promoted replacing a relagated non-reserve team.

    This does nothing to address the attendence issue, but you can't have everything.
     
  20. olafgb

    olafgb New Member

    Jun 6, 2001
    Germany
    Adrian: I agree 100% with your second but last post.

    Eisern Union: the quality between 18 and 20 teams doesn't lower the quality significantly. The WC added 1/3 of the previous size and distributes the spots according to global (or let's be realistic: voting reasons) and not according to quality. This cannot be compared to a sporting qualification as it would be with increasing the league size by 2.

    You're right, also other teams send players down. Also this should be limited according to player status/salary payment I think. The difference between a pro and an amateur is much bigger compared to mere amateur clubs with several teams. My take is to re-introduce the old rule that U23 players are allowed to be sent down, plus introducing that long term injured players (three months and more) are allowed to be sent down for a maximum of three games. Currently the rules are absolutely abused, e.g.: Mehmet Scholl liked the recent ECQ break and decided to play for the D3 reserves, assisted all four goals and opponent Siegen was screwed; Siegen doesn't do it much better though - a player was yellow suspended in D3, so they sent him to D4 the next weekend, where they don't know yellow suspensions; last year Schalke sent down WC participant Sven Vermant to the D4 reserves when he way yellow-red suspended in Bundesliga; Dortmund regularly sends veteran Heiko Herrlich to the reserves as he is too bad for Bundesliga, Bochum does the same with Anton Vriesde, Ahlen with a bunch of not used pros - and the list could be much longer...

    All Bundesliga clubs want their reserves in D3 as this is the only chance for serious build-up work for their talents. That's why your suggestion wouldn't work. Taking a look at the D4s: Wolfsburg Res, Regensburg Res, Gladbach Res, Bielefeld Res and Hertha Res are top ranked already now - that's no nice future outlook for the coming D3 seasons.
     
  21. Adrian P.

    Adrian P. New Member

    Jul 2, 2003
    Copenhagen Denmark
    Well the thing i meant was simply just not to allow the reserve team to play in the 3rd level just in the 4th level, somewhere the line has to been drawn (I know it is already, I just think it's a wrong line).......

    What I'm just saying that It seems odd for me that the Biggest Country in Europe with the highest crowds in Europe and after 2006 an average in the 1.BL on over 40K (new stadium tendency lurking fans to stadium) only have or will permit space space for 36 teams. It could be 40 or 72 or possible 80, and what does stop Germany of this happening.

    A) Reserve teams in the 3rd level.
    B) An conservative Idea that 18 team league is the most optimal.
    C) Old Crumbling Stadiums below the 1.BL
    D) The anciety to repeat the Economic failure when the 2.BL were split in 2 leagues of 18.

    Well I just think the times have changed and new thinking is needed.

    I'm sure that If you tell a Corporate President for a huge Corporation that he is not allowed to make the company bigger because the existing size is perfect, he will think you are crazy.
     
  22. Adrian P.

    Adrian P. New Member

    Jul 2, 2003
    Copenhagen Denmark
    Well Olag you have a good point about the Regensburg amateurs and so on, but if you send 7-8 reserve teams down to 4th level 7-8 also has to go down from there (although it might not be other reserve teams, just in theory).

    Well For me it's dirty that the rich clubs just want to buy so many good players when they only can field 11 at a time so they are needed to let them play in a reserve team on 3rd level. It should not be a Clubs as Kickers Offenbach or Dynamo Dresdens problem that Bayern and Dortmund buys so many stars. Sending the reserves down from 3rd level to 4th level can maybe learn them not just to buy a lot of players but also that the buyings have to work together on the field.
     
  23. Alex_K

    Alex_K Member+

    Mar 23, 2002
    Braunschweig, Germany
    Club:
    Eintracht Braunschweig
    Nat'l Team:
    Bhutan
    While it is true that there are a few clubs in Northern Germany with a large fanbase (Braunschweig and St. Pauli in the current RL for example), the majority of the clubs in the old RL north hadn't. In the current RL Nord the majority of clubs is from the old RL West (the reason is that it doesn't depend on your regional assocciation anymore in which league you play, but on geographical reasons only).

    Even if the leagues still had 20 or more teams, most clubs from the East would probably have went down nevertheless (poor economy in Eastern Germany).
     
  24. Alex_K

    Alex_K Member+

    Mar 23, 2002
    Braunschweig, Germany
    Club:
    Eintracht Braunschweig
    Nat'l Team:
    Bhutan
    "Regular" RL clubs are required to have a certain number of young players too.

    I don't want to sound pessimistic but 80 pro teams ? No way. The situation wouldn't be much better than in England then, were many lower level clubs have financial problems (ok, it's already the same here, but making them officially pro won't solve the problem imo).
     
  25. Adrian P.

    Adrian P. New Member

    Jul 2, 2003
    Copenhagen Denmark
    Well I agree with you that 80 teams are at the moment a bit impossible but try to see it this way, Besides the 1.BL teams German stadium sucks all the way to the Isle of Man. It has been proved all over Europe that a new stadium will increase popularity with 40%. I know that the expensive new stadiums are one of the major reasons that many clubs throughout europe have financially troubles but what about in 15 years were the debt has became smaller, and you still have the higher average gates.

    See Mainz there new stadium is just perfect for 2.BL
    If the Stadium of Mainz became the standard for 2BL stadiums, you will see many more coming to 2BL and that would make the 3rd level teams keen to try to go up in the 2BL. Those teams with thats setisfied would probably built smaller stadiums like the Jade stadion at Wilhelmshaven that are a perfect stadium to that level.

    The English Birse and Barr Constructors have after building a lot of stadiums made an standard stadium thats very.... 9 million Euro for a 10k seater.....

    With a new popular profile and bigger gates the sponsors would also bee more interested in investing in teams under the 1.BL.

    Hey think about it Denmark with 5,4 million people have 12-13 fulltime pro teams.
     

Share This Page