The best players of the season 2021-22

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by victorcalello38, Apr 6, 2022.

  1. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    There is an argument that Benzema did enough in the last16, quarters and semis to get it already but can see a Salah mega final could tip it.
     
  2. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I think you're underestimating the cognitive dissonance that is "Finals Bias."

    Why do you think Zidane won the Ballon d'Or in 1998?
     
    carlito86 repped this.
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #28 PuckVanHeel, May 10, 2022
    Last edited: May 10, 2022
    Ah, there are some who see it different than Dbscalcio or CBS sport, who know the facts ("one season wonder", they will say in 20 years time). Sadly, a meandering route to the top by players is now basically unavoidable, unless there is a deep run in the CL (like Ajax 2019).




    https://www.ultimouomo.com/migliori-uno-contro-uno-2000-2020/
    https://www.ultimouomo.com/van-dijk-pallone-d-oro/

    I can live with Salah getting the applause but how people do not see he is head and shoulders the best in his position... (something rarely the case, I might add, rarer than other positions).

    Benzema is not necessarily better but imho a lot more important for the success his team had. It is hard to see Madrid having similar success without him. Liverpool meanwhile did not suffer without Salah and Mane (as wondered by some beforehand).

    -----‐-------------

    Then also this (more and more exclusivity for the elite):


    "Holland"... It becomes more and more annoying.

    Brought to you by the 'newspaper of record'. It is so emblematic for the haughty belittlers, condescenders and denigraters. The only ones in Europe they take serious are Germany, France and not much more.

    What happens though is natives wanting to connect to the foreign market (and have no pride or patriotism), so stuff like that becomes adopted (Holland on banners by natives; ij becomes y etc.)

    Funnily, the american elite in the late 18th century already got this distinction right. While the preponderance of Holland was and is a relative thing (not comparable to South East England or Ile de France in their own country). It was also in general the least militaristic and prone to advocate military spending in their day (the pro-Orangist provinces wanted this, more or less), so where this all comes from is a bit strange. It makes much more sense to use London for the entirity of England (or Copenhagen for Denmark, something like that).

    Next time: a story by Honigstein and pals how it is all because of Holland, Ten Hag adopting Germany their knowhow; Holland as paradise for misogynists and abusers; the UEFA and money spinners making the next ganging-up plot (1973 and 1672 revisited); Neuer with his clear-cut howlers in three/four consecutive tournaments and successive CL campaigns as the best goalkeeper ever.
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Without Benzema his club does not win the league.
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    What will probably happen is some vote splitting for the Man City and Liverpool players (mixed with some usual block voting), which will be less the case for Real Madrid (also because Fiorentino and pals have been notoriously good in steering and streamlining this process; their lobby has become notorious).

    I expect Benzema or Lewandowski to win. I think Salah will suffer from votes for Mane, TAA etc. (fair or not).

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...helps-liverpool-out-of-a-tight-spot-tr67nb2bs


    (Lampard - not to take away his prolific profile - was on both occasions with penalties)

    (I was 'worried' KDB is slowly succumbing to injuries and various scissor moves on his limbs; from Van Basten to Sneijder and Hazard, a recurring trope has been you can hack them down when they become too good, with limited public outcry and pressure by the masses, and preventive deterrence for the referees and/or Frisk style consequences - in the meantime generally 'fair' players like Van Dijk will themselves receive cards for the slightest breezes)

    ______________

    I saw lately the local FA has been reporting for a few years a declining interest and membership among the youth and pupils (in contrast to other team sports). One detrimental factor in this: "the growing negative image of football" (2017) and a growing prosperity, still (so called elitist sports become democratized and adopted by minorities).

    https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2017/10/2...de-jongens-vertrekken-juist-13740841-a1579151
    https://www.trouw.nl/sport/de-knvb-...enenverlies-en-terugloop-jeugdleden~b45a5f77/

    In the last pre corona year a year-on-year decline of 6% among the under-7, under-13, and pupils
    https://www.knvb.nl/nieuws/organisa...rverslag-opnieuw-meer-vrouwelijke-voetballers
     
  6. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Agree with the VVD comments, the main difference between last season for Liverpool versus this season (bar Jota and Diaz that have been great additions) was missing VVD for most of the season. Liverpool were 5th with two games to go and relied on an later Allison header and Leicester collapse to even qualify for the CL, now with VVD back they are pushing a dominate City the wire once again.

    Their defence looked shakey the whole season of last season, but this season VVD plus either Matip/Konate/Gomez generally looks rock solid.

    Main point is you can take Salah/Mane/Jota/Diaz/Firminio out and the others step up which has been proved with rotation, take VVD out for a different central defender and the whole dynamic changes and the difference is significant.
     
  7. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    2012-13 primarily, but it seems whoscored ratings actually go down for him that season. Maybe it was Don Balon ratings which gave me that impression, can’t really remember.
     
  8. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #33 Estel, May 13, 2022
    Last edited: May 13, 2022
    There were none more deserving candidates. Using Zidane’s 98 Balon d’Or win as some kind of example of “cognitive dissonance” would suggest that you have plenty of evidence to offer for making a case towards his unsuitability as a winning candidate, outside of the final. But considering the below, this notion is clearly false, since he was more qualified than the majority of Balon d’Or winning candidates from history till that point, due to his strong performances and results across all the biggest club and international tournaments.

    At club level Zidane achieved the following in 97/98 -
    • In Juventus’ run to the CL final he had 3g+7a in 11 games which also won him the UEFA best midfielder for 97/98
    • In their successful Serie A title defence he had 7g+7a in 32 games which made him an integral part of that title campaign, second only behind Del Piero (21g+11a)
    • ESM which only looks at club games had him on their team of the month 5 times out of the total 9, more than any other player from Juventus (Peruzzi 3, Del Piero 2, Inzaghi 1) and in fact more than any players not named Roberto Carlos (8) or Hierro (5)
    Ronaldo9 was his only rival for the award IMHO and won the UEFA Cup (6g+2a in 11 games) but couldn’t take Inter to the Serie A title (25g+3a in 32 games) and had fewer appearances in the ESM XI (4). He beat Zidane to the Serie A foreign player award and won the UEFA player+forward of the year awards but was beaten to the Capocannoniere and Golden Boot awards by Oliver Bierhoff and Nicholas Makras respectively.

    Since Zidane was already rated highly enough to be ranked 3rd in the Bd’O the season earlier in 1997 (ahead of the more established Del Piero) behind Ronaldo9 who won it that year on the back of a statistically better club season than what he had an year later and international success with the CA win with Brazil, Zidane was clearly going to be the front runner in 1998 considering him being able to beat his rival in the head-to-head for the league trophy while personally having a better club season than the one he had an year earlier, which landed him his first podium finish and made his name renowned as a candidate for possibly winning the award in the future.

    Then the World Cup happened and Zidane was rated highly in all of his featured games leading up to the final inspite of not scoring any goals till that game while also getting red carded and suspended (kicker magazine, pretty neutral source for this event considering Germany’s early exit, has him as the highest rated attacker with 5 or more games played and second highest overall behind only Thuram). Ronaldo9 although having a statistically better output didn’t have smooth sailing either and was actually seen to be having a subdued tournament with 3g in 5 games (as Bebeto and Rivaldo also had the same number) and amidst comments from the Brazil team doctor that he was 4.5 pounds overweight. This changed with Ronaldo9’s performance in the SF vs the Netherlands, but Zidane completely overturned this advantage in the Final, with probably the all time greatest WC final game for a playmaking midfielder.
     
  9. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Zidanes greatest achievement was only made possible because it was fixed
    https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...ni-world-cup-1998-brazil-france-draw-trickery

    Scoring 2 goals in the R16,QF or SF doesnt increase your ballon dor chances as much as 2 goals in the final
    Just ask Lillian Thuram

    His 1998 scudetto was also fixed



    Ironically this was the exact time frame he was a (self confessed)doper
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...me-of-juve-s-team-of-the-nineties-728710.html
     
  10. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    So let me get this straight.....

    Zidane won the league, and voters still recognized Ronaldo as the better Foreign Player.

    Zidane made it to the final of the UCL, and voters still recognized Ronaldo as better UEFA player, despite the latter only playing in the UEFA Cup.

    Zidane won the World Cup, and voters still recognized Ronaldo as the better player in the tournament, awarding him with the Golden Ball (Zidane didn't even place top 3, btw).

    5 months later, despite competing for 3 separate awards and losing out on all 3 separate awards in the 97/98 season, voters decided that Zidane was the best performer in the World.

    Something changed in that 5 months. Something that wasn't taken into account in the voting of those 3 awards. If you can name something else other than the World Cup final, do let me know.
     
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  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #36 PuckVanHeel, May 14, 2022
    Last edited: May 14, 2022
    It has grown to a point where every small thing gets highlighted, and even then it is merely only once a month (and less than everyone else). And yes, playing every game has its downsides.



    Proves the points (un-marketable sideshow or villain; merely a tool and foil to make others greater, even someone as Rijkaard):



    4th and 3rd best player *overall* in the league:
    https://one-versus-one.com/en/rankings
    https://analytics.soccerment.com/en/league/premier_league/players

    https://www.whoscored.com/Articles/...-the-Premier-Leagues-most-underrated-defender
    https://www.besoccer.com/new/virgil-van-dijk-by-numbers-352981
    https://foxsports.com.au/football/p...1/news-story/70d94b4d0cdd7ec670d51becd220dcac

    Not that this anything new though (funnily, people stopped citing and using 'Fink Tank' once dutchies ended near/at the top of the table).

    People need to stop with the nonsense elite level football is a meritocracy. It is a cartel. 'Holland' #2 in the coefficients is unacceptable and not the intention so like in 1973 and 1995 the conspirators will take care of that mistake (meanwhile, Italy and France get more and more CL places while the qualification results do not merit it).

    (It has to be said and admitted someone as Zlatan Ibrahimovic has mastered the media game, the presentation, the simultaneous downplaying and highlighting of aspects in his background/identity/upbringing, and the building up of his personality and character.)
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #37 PuckVanHeel, May 14, 2022
    Last edited: May 14, 2022
    Ronaldo his 1998-99 season was clearly of a lower standard I'd say. He suffered from fatigue and exhaustion, had already niggling injuries before the 'big blow'.

    What also happened is Del Piero getting injured so the attention and efforts shifted ever more to Zidane.

    Besides, Nedved was as a league and Champions League performer not far off and arguably of a similar level (others as Rui Costa and Rivaldo imho start to lose ground when you get into the defining cannot-lose rounds of the CL/UC).
     
  13. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Lol, it’s clear you didn’t follow the game at that time and are really reaching here, considering these points. Let me explain.

    1. Sure, they fixed the World Cup for France to win it but decided to then have France’s best player sent off for a stamp on a Saudi player and gave him a 2 match suspension, while the always politically underdog Dutch team’s Bergkamp was let off for a similar incident in the same tournament. Doesn’t make sense. If it was really fixed, France would have received the South Korea 2002 treatment or received help in terms of penalties and red cards against their opponents instead. As for scoring in finals vs scoring in SFs and QFs, if you have other players who also have equally strong club seasons as Zidane (Thuram didn’t) then we can talk, else it’s immaterial to the Bd’O discussion.

    2. Inter had enough chances to win the title after their loss vs Juventus on round 31, which was the game that led to those rumors as Juventus was awarded the game winning pk immediately after Inter were denied one). Juventus dropped 4 points afterwards in the remaining 3 games, but Inter themselves dropped 5 points as well and thus lost the title. It was not solely due to that game, but do carry on. Opposition fans and club officials often complain that CRonaldo’s CL wins with Real were due to referees and UEFA. I’m sure you those claims just as seriously as you’re considering these.

    3. Ronaldo9 had much worse doping allegations and people often point to his weight gain being a result of that doping which ultimately led to his injury. Since he’s Zidane’s only competitor, And we don’t know enough about the others since they weren’t high enough profile to rule them out, I’m not sure how this point is relevant. Doping in football would anyway primarily help someone who has a very high work rate or explosive acceleration, and Zidane was known for neither. There is no drug invented yet which improves a player’s first touch and control, which were Zidane’s forte.


    Are you sure you want to do this?

    So your logic is, Ronaldo winning those individual prizes while not winning 2/3 of the team trophies and also while not being the top goalscorer in any of those competitions (considering his role and your above tone, him being beaten by the likes of Guivarch, Bierhoff and Suker to top scorer awards seems very unlikely, but here we are) - all of this is not questionable whatsoever. However, Zidane winning the Bd’O while winning 2/3 team trophies, having better rated World Cup performances and having more ESM appearances, having great stats for a midfielder, is somehow all due to the World Cup Final?

    As for individual awards, if you were being fair, you’d acknowledge that,
    1.Zidane had already won the Serie A Best Foreign player award the year earlier, so giving it to Ronaldo9 was a decision that any award committee of that time would make, even if Zidane were slightly more deserving or actually won the league title instead of Ronaldo9.
    2. Since Ronaldo9 won his UEFA club tournament and Zidane didn’t, the UEFA best player is also awarded as per award committee’s tendencies of that era. Zidane won the UEFA best midfielder though, so he was clearly in the same league in terms of performances. He even surprisingly had more goal involvements in terms of goals+assists.
    3. The World Cup golden ball is known to be voted on before or around the time of the final, thus Zidane won it in spite of his headbutt in 06 and didn’t feature on the podium in spite of his extraordinary final performance vs Brazil in 98. The real question here is, how did Ronaldo9 end up winning it even after all that drama about his being able to play or not in the final and then his actual extremely subdued performance after telling Zagallo that he’s fit to play. The only reason is, as I explained, that the voting had mostly already taken place.
     
  14. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    The head of the italian football federation said it was fixed


    Not a random club 'official' or keyboard warrior in a internet cafe

    Pressure from his Nike sponsors as the legend/story goes

    His first touch and ball control alone would make him no more effective then 20 other guys in Serie A at the time
    How far did Cassanos ball control get him
    Did he even make a 23 man ballon dor shortlist?


    Zidanes underrated athleticism was one the reasons he was one of the most effective ball carriers in the italian division

    For reference this is in EURO 2000 and Serie A 2000/01
    Ranking_graph_SPV2.png
    https://www.skysports.com/football/news/2213328/zidane-set-to-be-a-real-smash

    FYI The drugs he took helped him get through Juventus heavy match schedule
    "It's useful and I need it to play 70 matches a season."

    More matches played=more goals/assists/dribbles/distance covered/more chances to create highlight reel moments =more opportunities to increase your chances of winning the ballon dor

    The starting point was the PEDs not the technique

    This is the dark side of football that nobody wants to talk about
    https://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/e...ust-follow-lance-armstrong-and-admit-it-has-a

    If you take off the rose tinted glasses youd realise almost no legendary pre modern era footballer escapes unscathed
    Not Zico,R9,Zidane,ADP, the 'speed demon' Johan Cruyff or his Ajax/Netherlands teammates, the doped up cheats of West Germany in world cup 1954, etc

    If i start reeling off names we can be here all day long

    This is from one of the most anti modern football era posters on this forum
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/cruyff-the-doper-of-football.2000497/
    Even he couldn't deny it
    A fact is a fact
     
  15. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    You mean the guy who presided over the Italian federation when the actual Calciopoli scandal hit the league in 2006? I am sure that there is no possible reason that he would want to point fingers at the league’s results when the FIGC was under a different president. After all, what possible advantage could he gain, right? He’s just a politician and we all know how they never lie or twist facts/words to say one thing and mean another about their political rivals or the political regimes pre dating their tenures.

    But even disregarding the above, what you say is that it’s not sourced from a random club official, but then bring as your source Inter’s twitter feed of all things with a tweet that does not provide the context to the quote and a link that doesn’t work so one can’t directly verify it. Anyway, I found the full interview and the same guy goes on to say this in it (referring to Luciano Moggi at the beginning) -
    He never succeeded in illicitly winning a title with Juventus.

    The only game that I had any doubts over was Juve-Inter, with that penalty not given to Ronaldo in 1998.

    Juve would have won those Scudetti anyway

    That’s a direct quote from the same guy. So are you now going to do a 180 since he ultimately concluded that Juventus’ title was not illicit and he was the FIGC president?

    Oh and btw, he’s also accused of wrongly awarding the 2006 title to Inter. Looks like he seems to have a slight tendency to favor Inter. Of course, that had nothing to do with his calling out the one game that Inter had some issues with. Nothing whatsoever right?

    And Zidane had Adidas.


    Having an ability and actually making use of it intelligently are two different things. Cassano threw away his talent, Zidane built on it.

    But your remark really shows your actual view as you have no understanding of Zidane’s capability with that 20 guys statement. Since you are also the guy who has a strange judgement of CRonaldo’s capabilities, conflating a forward’s and a winger’s plays leading to opportunities or goals with full time playmaking considering your other posts, its not really possible to explain this to you IMO.

    Are you denying that Zidane’s gameplay was less about work rate and explosive acceleration than other great players of his era who were his competitors for major prizes, like Ronaldo9, Figo or Nedved? All you said above applies more to them than Zidane, and thus they benefited more from doping. So Zidane was actually at a disadvantage even in your scenario.

    And you talk of rose tinted glasses but ignore the elephant in the room. CRonaldo and Messi are from an era of extreme economic imbalance between clubs as well as players competing for the same prizes. They are thus effectively a part of a monetary doping scheme, having gotten extraordinary benefits when compared to their less heralded competitors during the course of their careers through their club teams’ and personal monetary edge in being able to build significantly better teams and better staffs. Props to them for taking full advantage of the situation, but spare me the grandstanding. I can see the disparity between them+their teams vis-a-vis their opponents. For all the problems with late 90s and early 00s football, at least it was a lot more balanced and competitive across the spectrum.
     
  16. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Guys, please. No more of the Zidane stuff. It’s entirely unrelated to this thread.
     
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  17. IceBlood34

    IceBlood34 Member

    Montpellier HSC
    France
    Jan 27, 2021
    Also, does anyone have any information about the players in the major leagues, who would have the most best player titles in the league?
    I know that Messi is at 9 titles of best player of the year for La Liga for example.
     
  18. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    UNFP Awards for the best players in France

    Team of the Year: Gianluigi Donnarumma (PSG); Jonathan Clauss (Lens), Marquinhos (PSG), William Saliba (Marseille), Nuno Mendes (PSG); Seko Fofana (Lens), Aurelien Tchouameni (Monaco), Dmitri Payet (Marseille); Martin Terrier (Rennes), Wissam Ben Yedder (Monaco), Kylian Mbappe (PSG)

    Best goalkeeper: Donnarumma, Pau Lopez (OM), Matz Sels (Strasbourg), Alban Lafont (FC Nantes) and Walter Benitez (OGC Nice).

    Best player: Mbappe

    Young Player: Saliba

    https://www.ligue1.com/Articles/NEWS/2022/05/17/unfp-trophies-mbappe-s-reign-continues
     
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  19. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Team of the Season from the Independent

    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league-team-of-the-season-2021-22-b2081019.html

    Miguel Delaney (4-2-3-1): Alisson; Alexander-Arnold, Guehi, Van Dijk, Cancelo; De Bruyne, Rice; Salah, Eriksen, Son; Mane.

    Richard Jolly (4-3-3): Alisson; Alexander-Arnold, Rudiger, Van Dijk, Cancelo; De Bruyne, Rice, Gallagher; Salah, Silva, Son.

    Mark Critchley (4-3-3): Sa; Alexander-Arnold, Matip, Van Dijk, Cancelo; Rodri, Rice, De Bruyne; Salah, Bowen, Son.

    Tony Evans (4-3-3): Alisson; Alexander-Arnold, Rudiger, Van Dijk, Robertson; De Bruyne, Fabinho, Silva; Salah, Kane, Son.

    Ben Burrows (4-3-3): Sa; Alexander-Arnold, Van Dijk, Rudiger, Cancelo; Rodri, Rice; De Bruyne; Salah, Kane, Son.

    Jack Rathborn (4-3-3): Alisson; Alexander-Arnold, Rudiger, Van Dijk, Cancelo; Rice, Rodri, De Bruyne; Salah, Kane, Son.

    Lawrence Ostlere (4-3-3): Sa; James, Romero, Rudiger, Robertson; De Bruyne, Rodri, Kovacic; Salah, Kane, Son.

    Luke Baker (4-3-3): Alisson; Alexander-Arnold, Matip, Dias, Cancelo; De Bruyne, Rice, Silva; Salah, Luis Diaz, Son.

    Tom Kershaw (4-3-3): Allison; Alexander-Arnold, Rudiger, Van Dijk, Cancelo; De Bruyne, Rice, Eriksen; Salah, Silva, Son.

    Alex Pattle (4-3-3): Alisson; Alexander-Arnold, Van Dijk, Guehi, Cancelo; Rice, Thiago, De Bruyne; Salah, Son, Mane

    Michael Jones (4-3-3): Ederson; Alexander-Arnold, Rudiger, Van Dijk, Cancelo; Bowen, Rice, De Bruyne; Salah, Kane, Son.

    Jamie Braidwood (4-3-3): Alisson; Alexander-Arnold, Matip, Van Dijk, Cancelo; Rodri, Thiago, Silva; Salah, De Bruyne, Son.

    The Independent’s XI (4-3-3): Alisson (Liverpool); Alexander-Arnold (Liverpool), Rudiger (Chelsea), Van Dijk (Liverpool), Cancelo (Manchester City); De Bruyne (Manchester City), Rodri (Manchester City), Rice (West Ham); Salah (Liverpool), Kane (Tottenham), Son (Tottenham).

    Substitutes: Sa (Wolves), Matip (Liverpool), Guehi (Crystal Palace), Silva (Manchester City), Eriksen (Brentford), Bowen (West Ham), Mane (Liverpool).
     
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  20. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
  21. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    AD78 repped this.
  22. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
  23. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Kane feels a lot like "well, we need a number 9 in there, and I guess there's no one better" kinda pick
     

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