The best players of the season 2020/21.

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Trachta10, Sep 16, 2020.

  1. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #201 carlito86, Jul 12, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2021
    Serie A 2020/21
    Screenshot_20210712-073906-1.jpg
    https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/1...330/Stages/18873/Show/Italy-Serie-A-2020-2021

    Euro 2021
    Screenshot_20210712-063824-1.jpg
    Screenshot_20210712-063830-1.jpg
    https://www.sofascore.com/tournament/football/europe/european-championship/1

    Screenshot_20210712-063644-1.jpg
    https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...tics/International-European-Championship-2020

    In reality 2020/21 was a season of 2 halves for Ronaldo

    September 2020

    This is a top 10 level all time player except that he is 35 years old here

    August to December 2020


    He went into a slump from January and regressed to a standard/typical world class level(still decisive as he has been for the last 14 years but the all round play was left wanting)

    Scoring 5 goals+1 assist in a group of death isn't something any random player can do

    Even in that R16 vs Belgium he completed 4 dribbles+3 key passes and was clearly the most productive(all round)player on the pitch

    When it comes to these kind of rankings you cannot judge players like Ronaldo,Messi,Neymar on their previous standards

    If foden had scored 29 league goals in a top 5 European league with an additional 5 goals+1 assists in a group of death (with France and Germany)
    The British press would be calling him the greatest prodigy the British isle has ever produced

    Believe me
    stuff like context(3 of those 5 EC goals being penalties)would completely fly out of the window aswell
     
  2. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I'm not so sure that's true Carlito.

    Take Harry Kane in 2018. He won the World Cup golden boot with 6 goals, which is usually held in higher regard than golden boot in EURO, but because most of his goals were set pieces, the English fans didn't go crazy calling him the best striker in the world or anything like that.
     
  3. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Harry kane was 25 years old and already in his peak

    5 of those 6 were also against Panama and Tunisia
    Apples and pears

    If foden(21 years old) had a campaign
    With 29 league goals+5 goals in European championship group of death against France/Germany

    The poster @Titanlux wouldn't even think twice about nominating him for a ballon dor podium and the British media hype train would be going into overdrive(the new Messi,new Pele blaaaaaaaa)

    This is what happens when you are victim of your success and previous standards

    40 league goals per season was normalised
    Now anything less is perceived as just good

    To be ranked as the best outfield player of a top 5 European league at 36 years old isn't a normal thing


    Maybe not by bullshit/biased/partial/agenda driven media ratings
    Ratings by journalists who have preconceived notions about certain players anyways(they are human and susceptible to biases)

    Whoscored/sofascore maybe no bible
    It Doesn't mean it isn't demonstrably closer to the truth then the word of a group of journalists

    I don't want to digress too much but there are double if not triple standards at play here

    Ronaldo has been the best player in Serie A for 3 consecutive seasons
    That's a fact
    When he top scores and when he doesn't top score

    This doesn't seem to register
     
  4. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    I have selected 210 players since the beginning of the 2020-21 season, for whom I have been calculating various mathematical formulas based on their individual performance and their collective achievements, weighted by importance, taking into account their games played, average minutes per game and now, having finished the season, I have the final numbers. I leave an image of the 120 best classified. Of course, there is no exact match between the merits of each player and his position in this classification, but it is possible that it serves as a good reference for each of us to make our own pool. Undoubtedly, we will miss several of our favorite footballers on this list, with Bonucci as the clearest example (I have 123rd with 6,971), but he was not on my list of candidates until the Eurocopa was developing, thanks to which it rose several hundredths to the merits previously contracted. For those who are curious to know the sources used: sofascore, whoscored, dbscalcio and ESM.

    mejores 2020-21 para bigsoccer.jpg
     
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  5. SF19

    SF19 Member+

    Jun 8, 2013
    I generally think a lot like you do, but here I will disagree.

    For athleticism and finishing ability, Cristiano is nearly peerless in the Series A. On paper, it can be said he's the best footballer in the league. However, I didn't feel he was the league's best player in all three seasons he's been in Italy.

    I felt he was truly the best player in the Series A in his first season at the club in 2018/19 when he did win the honor of league MVP.

    Immobile last season scored more goals (36 to Cristiano's 31) and deserved the accolade more even though Dybala won the honor. Cristiano was certainly exceptional enough for consideration.

    As for this season, despite Cristiano's 29 goals this campaign, Juventus were in danger of falling out of the top four (they should have finished in fifth and were lucky to qualify for the UCL next season). He was very poor when it mattered for Juventus. It was obvious he didn't care to give everything for Juventus and was unhappy.

    Lukaku won league MVP, but I felt Zlatan was the league's best player. He really did give everything, including the injury he suffered that meant he missed out on the Euros. Milan mounted a title challenge (they were top of the table and looked capable of taking the title if not some imbalances in the team) and finished in the top four largely because of the spirit and belief he brought to the team. I also felt Barella was the rock behind Inter's success and a more significant factor than Lukaku. Let me put it this way, if Barella played for the other side of Milan, I'm almost certain they would have won the league instead.
     
  6. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I finally put together my initial list of the best players of the season. It's not finished yet but is in a roughish order.

    GK (16)

    Jan Oblak (Atletico Madrid and Slovenia) 38 games, 0 goals

    Thibaut Courtois (Real Madrid and Belgium) 38 games, 0 goals

    Manuel Neuer (Bayern Munich and Germany) 33 games, 0 goals

    Gianluigi Donnarumma (Milan and Italy) 37 games, 0 goals

    Ederson (Manchester City and Brazil) 36 games, 0 goals

    Edouard Mendy (Chelsea and Senegal) 31 games, 0 goals

    Emiliano Martinez (Aston Villa and Argentina) 38 games, 0 goals

    Mike Maignan (Lille and France) 38 games, 0 goals

    Keylor Navas (PSG and Costa Rica) 29 games, 0 goals

    Alessio Cragno (Cagliari and Italy) 34 games, 0 goals

    Stefan Ortega (Arminia Bielfeld and Germany) 34 games, 0 goals

    Koen Casteels (Wolfsburg and Belgium) 32 games, 0 goals

    Peter Gulacsi (RB Leipzig and Hungary) 33 games, 0 goals

    Antonio Adan (Sporting Lisbon and Spain) 32 games, 0 goals

    Agustin Marchesin (Porto and Uruguay) 33 games, 0 goals

    Jose Sa (Olympiacos and Portugal) 29 games, 0 goals




    FB (25)


    Joao Cancelo (Manchester City and Portugal) 28 games, 2 goals

    Kyle Walker (Manchester City and England) 24 games, 1 goal

    Luke Shaw (Manchester United and England) 32 games, 1 goal

    Achraf Hakimi (Inter and Morocco) 37 games, 7 goals

    Theo Hernandez (Milan and France) 33 games, 7 goals

    Robin Gosens (Atalanta and Germany) 32 games, 11 goals

    Angelino (RB Leipzig and Spain) 26 games, 4 goals

    Raphael Guerreiro (Borussia Dortmund and Portugal) 27 games, 5 goals

    Vladimir Coufal (West Ham and Czech Republic) 34 games, 0 goals

    Ben Chillwell (Chelsea and England) 27 games, 3 goals

    Reece James (Chelsea and England) 32 games, 1 goal

    Kieran Trippier (Atletico Madrid and England) 28 games, 0 goals

    Jesus Navas (Sevilla and Spain) 34 games, 0 goals

    Marcos Acuna (Sevilla and Argentina) 30 games, 1 goal

    Javi Galan (Huesca and Spain) 37 games, 1 goal

    Juan Cuadrado (Juventus and Colombia) 30 games, 2 goals

    Ridle Baku (Wolfsburg and Germany) 32 games, 6 goals

    Stuart Dallas (Leeds and Scotland) 38 games, 8 goals

    Jonathan Clauss (Lens and France) 33 games, 3 goals

    James Tavernier (Rangers and England) 33 games, 12 goals

    Reinildo Mandava (Lille and Mozambique) 29 games, 0 goals

    Owen Wijndal (AZ and Netherlands) 34 games, 1 goal

    Nuno Mendes (Sporting Lisbon and Portugal) 29 games, 1 goal

    Pedro Porro (Sporting Lisbon and Spain) 30 games, 3 goals

    Douglas Santos (Zenit and Brazil) 28 games, 3 goals


    CB (26)


    Ruben Dias (Manchester City and Portugal) 32 games, 1 goal

    Marquinhos (PSG and Brazil) 25 games, 3 goals

    John Stones (Manchester City and England) 22 games, 4 goals

    Harry Maguire (Manchester United and England) 34 games, 2 goals

    Stefan de Vrij (Inter and Netherlands) 30 games, 1 goal

    Cristian Romero (Atalanta and Argentina) 31 games, 2 goals

    Simon Kjaer (Milan and Denmark) 28 games, 0 goals

    Stefan Savic (Atletico Madrid and Montenegro) 33 games, 1 goal

    Jules Kounde (Sevilla and France) 33 games, 2 goals

    Pau Torres (Villarreal and Spain) 33 games, 2 goals

    Mario Hermoso (Atletico Madrid and Spain) 31 games, 1 goal

    Wesley Fofana (Leicester City and France) 28 games, 0 goals

    Antonio Rudiger (Chelsea and Germany) 19 games, 1 goal

    Mats Hummels (Borussia Dortmund and Germany) 33 games, 5 goals

    Cesar Azpilicueta (Chelsea and Spain) 26 games, 1 goal

    Thiago Silva (Chelsea and Brazil) 23 games, 2 goals

    Willi Orban (RB Leipzig and Hungary) 29 games, 4 goals

    Maxence Lacroix (Wolfsburg and France) 30 games, 1 goal

    Matthias Ginter (Gladbach and Germany) 34 games, 2 goals

    Sven Botman (Lille and Netherlands) 37 games, 0 goals

    Jose Fonte (Lille and Portugal) 36 games, 3 goals

    Ezri Konsa (Aston Villa and England) 36 games, 2 goals

    Riechedly Bazoer (Vitesse and Netherlands) 29 games, 5 goals

    Sebastian Coates (Sporting Lisbon and Uruguay) 33 games, 5 goals

    Pepe (Porto and Portugal) 27 games, 2 goals

    Roman Yevgenyev (Dinamo Moscow and Russia) 27 games, 1 goals


    DM (16)


    Casemiro (Real Madrid and Belgium) 34 games, 6 goals

    Franck Kessie (Milan and Ivory Coast) 37 games, 13 goals

    Marten De Roon (Atalanta and Netherlands) 35 games, 1 goal

    Declan Rice (West Ham and England) 32 games, 2 goals

    Tomas Soucek (West Ham and Czech Republic) 38 games, 10 goals

    Pierre Hojbjerg (Tottenham and Denmark) 38 games, 2 goals

    Sergio Busquets (Barcelona and Spain) 36 games, 0 goals

    Fernando (Sevilla and Brazil) 31 games, 3 goals

    Renato Tapia (Celta Vigo and Peru) 32 games, 0 goals

    Jorginho (Chelsea and Italy) 28 games, 7 goals

    Rodri (Manchester City and Spain) 34 games, 2 goals

    Teun Koopmeiners (AZ and Netherlands) 31 games, 15 goals

    Aurelien Tchouaméni (Monaco and France) 36 games, 2 goals

    Youssouf Fofana (Monaco and France) 35 games, 0 goals

    Joao Palhinha (Sporting Lisbon and Portugal) 32 games, 1 goal

    Oliver Abildgaard (Rubin Kazan and Denmark) 28 games, 0 goals


    CM (26)


    Ilkay Gundogan (Manchester City and Germany) 28 games, 13 goals

    N’Golo Kante (Chelsea and France) 30 games, 0 goals

    Marcos Llorente (Atletico Madrid and Spain) 37 games, 12 goals

    Luka Modric (Real Madrid and Croatia) 35 games, 5 goals

    Toni Kroos (Real Madrid and Germany) 28 games, 3 goals

    Koke (Atletico Madrid and Spain) 37 games, 1 goal

    Nicolo Barella (Inter and Italy) 36 games, 3 goals

    Joshua Kimmich (Bayern Munich and Germany) 27 games, 4 goals

    Leon Goretzka (Bayern Munich and Germany) 24 games, 5 goals

    Frenkie De Jong (Barcelona and Netherlands) 37 games, 3 goals

    Youri Tielemans (Leicester City and Belgium) 38 games, 6 goals

    Remo Freuler (Atalanta and Switzerland) 34 games, 2 goals

    Ruslan Malinovskiy (Atalanta and Ukraine) 36 games, 8 goals

    Manuel Locatelli (Sassuolo and Italy) 34 games, 4 goals

    Yves Bissouma (Brighton and Mali) 36 games, 1 goal

    Sergio Canales (Real Betis and Spain) 31 games, 3 goals

    Dani Parejo (Villarreal and Spain) 36 games, 3 goals

    Marcel Sabitzer (RB Leipzig and Austria) 27 games, 8 goals

    Christian Noboa (Sochi and Ecuador) 25 games, 12 goals

    Benjamin Andre (Lille and France) 35 games, 0 goals

    Teji Savanier (Montpellier and France) 27 games, 5 goals

    Davy Klaassen (Ajax and Netherlands) 29 games, 12 goals

    Ryan Gravenberch (Ajax and Netherlands) 32 games, 3 goals

    Sergio Oliveira (Porto and Portugal) 32 games, 13 goals

    Max Arnold (Wolfsburg and Germany) 30 games, 3 goals

    Jude Bellingham (Borussia Dortmund and England) 29 games, 1 goal



    AM (16)


    Bruno Fernandes (Manchester United and Portugal) 37 games, 18 goals

    Kevin De Bruyne (Manchester City and Belgium) 25 games, 6 goals

    Mason Mount (Chelsea and England) 36 games, 6 goals

    Jack Grealish (Aston Villa and England) 26 games, 6 goals

    Thomas Muller (Bayern Munich and Germany) 32 games, 11 goals

    Pedro Goncalves ‘Pote’ (Sporting Lisbon and Portugal) 32 games, 23 goals

    Rodrigo De Paul (Udinese and Argentina) 36 games,9 goals

    Henrikh Mkhitaryan (Roma and Armenia) 30 games, 13 goals

    Sergej Milinkovic-Savic (Lazio and Serbia) 32 games, 8 goals

    Pedri (Barcelona and Spain) 37 games, 3 goals

    Nikola Vlasic (CSKA Moscow and Croatia) 26 games, 11 goals

    Lucas Paqueta (Lyon and Brazil) 30 games, 9 goals

    Rai Vloet (Heracles and Netherlands) 33 games, 16 goals

    Marco Reus (Borussia Dortmund and Germany) 32 games, 8 goals

    Christopher Nkunku (RB Leipzig and France) 28 games, 6 goals

    Lars Stindl (Gladbach and Germany) 30 games, 14 goals


    WG (13)


    Riyad Mahrez (Manchester City and Algeria) 27 games, 9 goals

    Phil Foden (Manchester City and England) 28 games, 9 goals

    Yannick Carrasco (Atletico Madrid and Belgium) 30 games, 6 goals

    Federico Chiesa (Juventus and Italy) 30 games, 8 goals

    Jadon Sancho (Borussia Dortmund and England) 26 games, 8 goals

    Filip Kostic (Eintracht Frankfurt and Serbia) 30 games, 4 goals

    Angel Di Maria (PSG and Argentina) 27 games, 4 goals

    Raphinha (Leeds and Brazil) 30 games, 6 goals

    Karl Toko Ekambi (Lyon and Cameroon) 35 games, 14 goals

    Steven Berghuis (Feyenoord and Netherlands) 33 games, 19 goals

    Ryan Gauld (Farense and Scotland) 33 games, 9 goals

    Kvicha Kvatatskhelia (Rubin Kazan and Georgia) 23 games, 4 goals

    Rachid Ghezzal (Beskitas and Algeria) 31 games, 8 goals


    FW (18)


    Lionel Messi (Barcelona and Argentina) 35 games, 30 goals

    Mo Salah (Liverpool and Egypt) 37 games, 22 goals

    Son Heung-Min (Tottenham and South Korea) 37 games, 17 goals

    Iago Aspas (Celta Vigo and Spain) 33 games, 14 goals

    Memphis Depay (Lyon and Netherlands) 37 games, 20 goals

    Neymar (PSG and Brazil) 18 games, 9 goals

    Angel Correa (Atletico Madrid and Argentina) 38 games, 9 goals

    Lautaro Martinez (Inter and Argentina) 38 games, 17 goals

    Lorenzo Insigne (Napoli and Italy) 35 games, 19 goals

    Domenico Berardi (Sassuolo and Italy) 30 games, 17 goals

    Raheem Sterling (Manchester City and England) 31 games, 10 goals

    Sadio Mane (Liverpool and Senegal) 35 games, 11 goals

    Dusan Tadic (Ajax and Serbia) 34 games, 14 goals

    Andrej Kramaric (Hoffenheim and Croatia) 28 games, 20 goals

    Silas (Stuttgart and DR Congo) 25 games, 11 goals

    Donyell Malen (PSV and Netherlands) 32 games, 19 goals

    Jordan Larsson (Spartak Moscow and Sweden) 29 games, 15 goals

    Kevin Volland (Monaco and Germany) 35 games, 16 goals


    ST (27)


    Robert Lewandowski (Bayern Munich and Poland) 29 games, 41 goals

    Harry Kane (Tottenham and England) 35 games, 23 goals

    Erling Haaland (Borussia Dortmund and Norway) 28 games, 27 goals

    Romelu Lukaku (Inter and Belgium) 36 games, 24 goals

    Cristiano Ronaldo (Juventus and Portugal) 33 games, 29 goals

    Kylian Mbappe (PSG and France) 31 games, 27 goals

    Karim Benzema (Real Madrid and France) 34 games, 23 goals

    Gerard Moreno (Villarreal and Spain) 33 games, 23 goals

    Luis Suarez (Atletico Madrid and Uruguay) 32 games, 21 goals

    Zlatan Ibrahimovic (Milan and Sweden) 19 games, 15 goals

    Burak Yilmaz (Lille and Turkey) 28 games, 16 goals

    Luis Muriel (Atalanta and Colombia) 36 games, 22 goals

    Dusan Vlahovic (Fiorentina and Serbia) 37 games, 21 goals

    Andre Silva (Eintracht Frankfurt and Portugal) 32 games, 28 goals

    Wout Weghorst (Wolfsburg and Netherlands) 34 games, 20 goals

    Dominic Calvert-Lewin (Everton and England) 33 games, 16 goals

    Patrick Bamford (Leeds and England) 38 games, 17 goals

    Ollie Watkins (Aston Villa and England) 37 games, 14 goals

    Youssef En-Nesyri (Sevilla and Morocco) 37 games, 18 goals

    Alexander Isak (Real Sociedad and Sweden) 34 games, 17 goals

    Wissam Ben Yedder (Monaco and France) 37 games, 20 goals

    Giorgos Giakoumakis (VVV Venlo and Greece) 30 games, 26 goals

    Mehdi Taremi (Porto and Iran) 34 games, 16 goals

    Haris Seferovic (Benfica and Switzerland) 31 games, 22 goals

    Artem Dzyuba (Zenit and Russia) 27 games, 20 goals

    Sardar Azmoun (Zenit and Iran) 24 games, 19 goals

    Paul Onuachu (Genk and Nigeria) 38 games, 33 goals

    Patson Daka (Red Bull Salzburg and Zambia) 28 games, 27 goals

    Youssef El-Arabi (Olympiacos and Morocco) 33 games, 22 goals
     
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  7. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Ultimately I think it's quite an odd season in a number of respects. We saw surprise winners in Spain, France and Italy, as well as Portugal.

    It felt like a year in which the Premier League was well out in front of rivals.

    Chelsea won the Champions League in a season where their leading league scorer was a defensive midfielder with 7 penalties. A number of their players (Chilwell, James, Thiago Silva, Azpilicueta) weren't the very best in the PL but combined with their CL achievements they get in.

    PSG didn't excel domestically despite doing well in the CL.

    Bayern won the Bundesliga comfortably but leaked a huge number of goals.

    My selection is currently light on players from outside the big 7 leagues and I have probably included too many from Russia given their European struggles. Turkey seems to continue it's decline.

    I normally have a few from Ukraine but haven't yet. I feel Slavia Prague potentially merit someone but unclear who.

    Very few sides from outside the major leagues cut through and it feels like the shift of power is just going on and on.
     
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  8. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I don't know if this was particularly unusual but it felt like a high level of churn of top players this year. Below were the top players picked by ESPN at the end of last year. A lot can be explained by the sub-par seasons of Liverpool in particular and also Bayern, Juventus and Barcelona.

    Goalkeepers

    10. De Gea
    9. Handanovic

    8. Donnarumma
    7. Keylor Navas
    6. Ederson
    5. Courtois
    4. Ter Stegen
    3. Oblak
    2. Alisson
    1. Neuer

    Right-back

    10. Dest
    9. Trippier
    8. Ricardo Pereira
    7. Hateboer

    6. Jesus Navas
    5. Walker
    4. Carvajal
    3. Pavard

    2. Hakimi
    1. Trent AA

    Centre-backs
    10. Marquinhos
    9. Kounde
    8. De Ligt
    7. Laporte
    6. Varane
    5. Upamecano
    4. Koulibaly
    3. Alaba
    2. Ramos
    1. Van Dijk


    Left-back

    10. Ferland Mendy
    9. Marcelo

    8. Chilwell
    7. Theo Hernandez
    6. Reguilon
    5. Raphael Guerreiro
    4. Alex Sandro
    3. Alba
    2. Alphonso Davies
    1. Robertson



    Central Midfield

    10. Verratti
    9. Modric
    8. De Jong
    7. Fabinho
    6. Henderson

    5. Kante
    4. Casemiro
    3. Kroos
    2. Thiago
    1. Kimmich

    Attacking Midfield

    10. Grealish
    9. Aouar
    8. Pogba
    7. Bernardo Silva
    6. Havertz

    5. Goretzka
    4. Papu Gomez
    3. Bruno Fernandes
    2. Muller
    1. De Bruyne

    Wing

    10. Vinicius
    9. Hazard
    8. Ocampos
    7. Coman
    6. Pulisic

    5. Di Maria
    4. Sancho
    3. Gnabry
    2. Sterling
    1. Mane

    Forwards

    10. Ilicic
    9. Rashford
    8. Dybala

    7. Son
    6. Aubameyang
    5. Salah
    4. Neymar
    3. Ronaldo
    2. Mbappe
    1. Messi

    Striker

    10. Raul Jimenez
    9. Firmino
    8. Werner
    7. Immobile
    6. Aguero

    5. Lukaku
    4. Kane
    3. Benzema
    2. Haaland
    1. Lewandowski
     
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  9. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I appreciate this might not be of interest to anyone and I'm probably having a conversation with myself here but this was a bit of a braindump on the lists that I produce and which leagues get the most inclusions.

    One of the things I always struggle with in compiling the lists of the best players in the season is how to weigh performances and recognise players from different leagues and competitions. On the one hand there is a desire to recognise those who are truly the best and to focus on the biggest teams and players, on the other a desire to be broadminded and avoid insularity, giving due credit to those across the Continent, even if they play in a less heralded league.


    So how do we accomplish both of those goals? The first obvious thing to recognise is that it is inherently a difficult and complex task with multiple factors at play so there isn’t an easy formula that we can use. Moreover the domestic competitions (including leagues and multiple cups) work in parallel to their Continental counterparts which adds greater challenges. Any conclusion we come to is likely to have gaps and inconsistencies in it.


    To start with the most obvious and factual basis we can look to UEFA’s coefficient system. This recognises leagues based on the performances of their teams in UEFA competitions and is used to determine the number of spots each league will receive in future seasons. Undoubtedly, it’s an excellent start in assessing the relative strength of different leagues but it isn’t without challenges.


    First among them is the fact that is can only assess teams who are playing in UEFA competitions and so only factors in the performances of the top sides in any league. Can we determine from the performance of the top sides, how strong a league is overall? Does the success of Barcelona and Real Madrid mean that sides at the bottom of La Liga are stronger than their counterparts around Europe?


    Secondly, the system uses an average based on the performances of those sides in UEFA tournaments. In 2008-9 the league with the highest average was Ukraine after Shakhtar won the UEFA Cup and Dynamo Kiev reached the semi-finals. Nobody would pretend that the Ukrainian league was the strongest in Europe, even if the numbers might suggest that.


    Furthermore there are discrepancies in how each team and league approach different competitions. Part of Sevilla’s incredible success in recent years (six wins in the UEFA Cup/Europa League in 15 seasons) has been the seriousness they assign to the trophy. In contrast there are certain teams, particularly in the Premier League, who have seen competing on an extra front a serious hindrance to their main priority of avoiding relegation.


    Alongside the official coefficients we can use various systems that rate teams based on performance. Club ELO, the 538 Global Soccer ratings, Euro Club Index are examples of systems which use performance and competition between the sides to rank them across Europe (and sometimes beyond).


    While these systems vary in the precise way that their calculations work (and I won’t pretend to have fully evaluated them individually), there is a level of consistency to them which gives good weight to their findings and they generally tally closely with the UEFA coefficients but provide much greater depth as they rate teams lower down the leagues as well.


    In addition we can look to other, less direct factors like the number of players drawn from the league competing at major tournaments. It’s not perfect by any means and can certainly be heavily influenced by factors such as the willingness of players to go abroad, which nations have qualified and the propensity of sides to buy in talent, but it gives an indication. At Euro 2020 England had 147 players represented among the squads, followed by Germany (92), Italy (75), Spain (42), Russia (32) and France (30). At the 2018 World Cup it was a roughly similar situation with the Premier League leading the way with 129 players, followed by Spain (81), Germany (67), Italy (58), France (49) and Russia (36).



    Another steer we can use is the relative wealth of sides. They may not use their extra resources wisely but the Premier League can boast 12 sides among the 30 clubs at the top of the Deloitte Money League, compared with 5 for Germany, 4 for Spain and Italy, 2 for France and 1 for Netherlands, Portugal and Russia. That in turn should allow them to buy more of the best players and certainly the way a newly monied side like Wolves were able to sign a cohort of top players from Portugal underlined the financial disparity which exists. For many clubs the Premier League is a cash cow that enables them to survive in the longer term.


    So what does all this mean in terms of distribution of places? In the past I’ve typically allocated the lion’s share of places to teams from the ‘big 5’ leagues reflecting the prevailing balance of the time but with a desire to be inclusive and reward smaller leagues as well. Increasingly though some of this can look out of kilter.


    My first cut off the list reflected the Premier League’s dominance by awarding more spots to English sides (41), than any other nation (Spain 31, Germany 28, Italy 27, France 20, Portugal 12, Netherlands 10, Russia 9) but does that go far enough and are the right players being rewarded?


    Looking by club Manchester City (surely the best side in Europe in 2020-1) lead the way with 11 inclusions followed by Champions League winners Chelsea (9) and Atletico Madrid (9). But other big Premier League teams seem relatively underweight. Manchester United finished second in the league and were runners up in the Europa League but were only given three inclusions while Liverpool, who were well off their usual high standards but ultimately finished third and reached the quarter-finals of the Champions League, got two inclusions. Even one of them, Sadio Mane, was close to being omitted.


    For context I also gave the Greek champions Olympiacos two spots but they were eliminated in the Champions League group stage, having lost five of their six matches. According to Club ELO Olympiacos are currently rated as the 48th best side in Europe, behind 15 Premier League sides. When Rui Patricio left Wolves in the summer to join Roma, his replacement was compatriot Jose Sa, signed from Olympiacos and a player I have included in the last two seasons thanks to his miserly record in goal for the Piraeus club. Patricio himself was a mainstay of these lists as probably the best keeper in Portugal but once he joined Wolves he became, for my purposes, just one of many good goalkeepers in the Premier League.


    That reflects the challenge in compiling such an arbitrary list, particularly as I aim to avoid ‘homerism’ by just picking the best players in the Premier League. Yet as some have suggested, in some ways the Premier League is increasingly becoming akin to a European Superleague as the disparity in resources grows.


    To a degree picking a far greater number of Premier League players looks myopic and jingoistic. The PL teams are not invincible. Spurs lost to Dynamo Zagreb, Leicester were knocked out of Europe by Slavia Prague, Arsenal were dumped out by Roma and Manchester United only made the Europa League final after finishing third in the Champions League group. This season United have already lost to Young Boys despite the acquisition of Ronaldo, Sancho and Varane.


    Yet that reflects, as much as anything, the inherent unpredictability of football. Big teams can lose against smaller ones, players can outperform their normal level and top stars can have off nights. Smaller leagues can still produce top players and have their day in the sun but, as a general rule of thumb, the big leagues should boast much of the best talent. For that reason my lists should probably in the future slant to recognise the reality of modern football a bit more.
     
  10. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Now I'm definitely having a conversation with myself but I have been batting around some thoughts on whether my above suggestion was fair and why.

    Counterpoint - If the Premier League is so strong, how can players come and step up seamlessly to that level?


    The above argument can make it seem that I’m putting the Premier League (and other major leagues) on a pedestal and the rest of Europe as an inferior product. A reasonable counterpoint to that can be to look at some of the Premier League’s outstanding figures and see the way in which they have risen rapidly to be viewed in such a light.


    We can start with Ruben Dias. In a single year he could go from the Portuguese Superliga and end up being seen as the best performing centre-back in the whole of Europe over the course of last season. In taking on that mantle he succeeded the injured Virgil van Dijk who had himself made a similarly meteoric rise. After a career that had moved from Groningen to Celtic and then Southampton, his arrival at Liverpool, for a world record fee, saw him almost overnight become the best defender in the world. By the end of his first full year at Anfield he had provided arguably the best season by any centre-back in the modern era.


    Sticking with Liverpool players, Sadio Mane was playing in Austria prior to his move to England and, again via Southampton, a position among the best in the world in his position. Luis Suarez is another who, having shone in the Netherlands, was able to transition into the best player in the division and among the very best in the world.


    Given the way that these players have adapted to life in the big time, is it fair to suggest that the big leagues have a near monopoly on the best players?


    The first thing to point out is that I’m not suggesting that other leagues don’t have players who could make the step up. Undoubtedly, there is an enormous amount of talent beyond the five big leagues, much of which can and will prove itself in the future. The difficulty we have is in determining which of those players will truly excel and quite how good they are.


    Ruben Dias is again a good case study. When he joined Manchester City he was already highly regarded and only Harry Maguire, Virgil van Dijk and Matthijs de Ligt had cost more money among centre-backs. But equally, there were doubts over whether he would excel. After all, City had previously paid huge sums for Eliaquim Mangala, Nicolas Otamendi, John Stones and Aymeric Laporte with varying levels of success.


    Equally Virgil van Dijk was impressive enough at Southampton to merit a world record fee for a defender and had been their player of the season as well as Celtic’s prior to making the move. Indeed looking at some of Van Dijk’s statistics at Southampton and some of his displays against top quality opposition (for both Southampton and Celtic) suggested that he might already be one of the best in the world.


    However, in judging players it’s really important to take into consideration their role in the team and the their overall fit. A very interesting piece was posted some time ago by Thiago Estevao who had previously doubted Dias’s ability to make such a leap: https://tiagoestv.medium.com/intangibles-scouting-ruben-dias-8d70dbec4107 It reflected some of the difficulty in judging how a player like Dias might get on in another setting while also talking about the situation he found himself in at City where the whole team were significantly better than the prior season, while rivals were worse. Not only did Dias excel but probably the second best centre-back in the league and Europe in general was his partner John Stones, another hugely talented individual who had previously been doubted but prospered in City’s new-look team.


    There’s probably no position harder to assess in isolation than centre-back as a huge amount of it is dependent on role, style of play and the qualities of those around you. Dias’s reputation was hugely boosted over the course of a spell in late autumn and the New Year when City won 17 from 19 games and conceded just six times. The defensive solidity of City was the cornerstone of their title challenge and the arrival of Dias was seen as making a marked difference. Yet he joined a team who had conceded just 35 goals the previous year, having let in 27 and 23 in the previous two campaigns, and ended up letting in 32 goals (admittedly boosted by two late season matches as they prepared for the Champions League final). Did Dias have as profound an impact as was sometimes suggested?


    Part of our difficulty in making the judgement is in working out what made Dias especially good. The lack of compelling defensive metrics means it is a judgement in which a lot of subjectivity and opinion has to be involved.


    However, could we realistically have anticipated quite how good Dias would be or had the potential to be? Certainly there were some reservations about him despite the high fee and whether Portugal was an adequate proving ground. We can also look at players moving in the opposite direction. Last season a former Liverpool defender Sebastian Coates captained Sporting Lisbon to domestic glory and was named as player of the year for his exploits, a prize that Dias never won. Aged 20 Coates had arrived at Anfield as a player of huge promise but never really fulfilled that and after a spell with Sunderland ended up in the Portuguese capital. If the Superliga really was so competitive, how can a player like Coates suddenly prosper after not succeeding in England? Does performance in Portugal give us much guide to how a player will perform in another arena? Would Coates now command a similar fee after last season’s excellence?


    Looking at attacking players like Mane and Suarez we can find a similar problem. Mane excelled in Austria with Red Bull Salzburg while Suarez starred in the Netherlands before making a move across. But in both leagues we can find examples of hits and misses. While Mane and Erling Haaland, who scored 17 goals in 16 league games in Salzburg, successfully made the leap, the likes of Jonathan Soriano, Munas Dabbur and Shon Weissman have all struggled in tougher environments. Leicester City will hope Patson Daka proves a success story.


    The Netherlands is clearly a considerable step up from Austria but is not all that much easier to evaluate. For every Suarez or Van Nistelrooy, there is an Afonso Alves or Vincent Janssen, who have excelled in the Eredivisie but cannot make the transition. It’s somewhat telling that last season’s top scorer Giorgos Giakoumakis cost Celtic just £2.5m as potential suitors doubt the ability to transition.


    Now for the Dutch we are able to make more use of performances in Europe and against the highest calibre of opposition, as well as international performances. When Matthijs de Ligt and Frenkie de Jong made big money moves, we had a good feel for their quality based on their exploits in the Champions League and both have excelled since transfers to Italy and Spain respectively. It is naturally harder with players who have not proven themselves elsewhere or, in the case of Dusan Tadic or Daley Blind, played abroad without unqualified success.


    Really then what this all says is that it’s hard to judge the performances or quality of players outside the biggest of leagues. That’s not to say there aren’t excellent players there but the test is not sufficiently challenging for them to prove themselves. We might well think retrospectively that a player like Van Dijk or Suarez was in fact world class all along, and they might well have been, but without the chance to prove it at the top level, in teams competing for the biggest trophies, it’s incredibly tough to know at the time.


    In that regard we can see football a little like diving or gymnastics, disciplines in which technical proficiency is measured against the degree of difficulty. A player may pass all his tests with flying colours, but until challenged with a sufficiently difficult obstacle, we can’t ever conclude that they are truly ‘world class’.
     
    Isaías Silva Serafim and Gregoriak repped this.
  11. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    What were your thoughts re the UEFA award re top ten and winner?

    My personal view while it states it takes into account domestic leagues and non UEFA International competitions, it is so heavily based on UEFA events, namely Champions League and the Euros and not the overall season.

    I am still not sure how Jorginho won, its not a competition re how many trophies a player wins in a season, no one was talking about him re one of Chelsea's best players and I feel late in the Euros, there was suddenly a penny drop moment re media, that, he could win both CL & Euros therefore should win. Yes he had a good overall season and a top five contender but not a winner.

    Re Sterling, arguably his worst season with City, yes he had a good Euros but was it enough to get him 8th place? If that was the logic, how was Bonucci (who was arguably PoT at the Euros) not get a top ten?

    Lukaku omission is harsh, a very strong season with Inter and a decent Euros despite Belgium's quarter final exit

    I would be interested to see the top twenty and what Italy players were just outside the top ten, surely it Bonucci, Chiesa and Chiellini were close as with Lukaku mentioned above.
     
    IceBlood34 repped this.
  12. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I really don't know what the award is trying to recognise. It's all just a big jumble really.

    I think it's very hard to make the case for Jorginho beyond trophies. I think he was arguably the best player at the Euros but nobody was that out of this world and he wasn't in the top 20 Premier League players.

    The rest of the top 10 is really just a load of names thrown together. Having said that, I do think it's an extremely difficult season to measure because nobody did that well across the board.

    Jorginho was excellent at the Euros, not domestically. Kante was excellent in the Champions League, not in league or Euros. De Bruyne was good (but not at his best) across all three. Messi won the CA but wasn't at his own personal best at club level; Lewandowski great at domestic level but eliminated early in CL and Euros.
     
  13. IceBlood34

    IceBlood34 Member

    Montpellier HSC
    France
    Jan 27, 2021
    I wanted to wait a bit before expressing myself again on the Ballon d'Or 2021, FIFA the Best 2021 and basically the best player of the 20/21 season.
    I have to say that it's been a long time since I found the competition between the players to be homogeneous.
    There is clearly no player who stands out from the crowd, once you take into account all the criteria of the Ballon d'Or/FIFA the Best.
    Let's say that the three "favorites" are Messi, Lewandowski, Jorginho, in that order.
    Even I really think that Jorginho will be very far in terms of points between the first two, and I think it will be very close between Messi and Lewandowski, like Van Djik vs Messi in 2019.
    The thing that will probably swing the win to Messi, in my opinion, is his victory at the Copa America 2021.
    For the symbol and the great performance he did in Brazil, I think it will tip the scales in his favor and allow him to have a 7th Ballon d'Or.
    Nevertheless, the return to form and especially the maintenance in form of Lewandowski for two years, and especially the fact that he was not elected last year, will also play a lot in the votes, hence a very close victory for Messi.
    After that, I think the other opponents are far away, although Jorginho can be on the podium (watch out for the Final 4 in the Nations League), I think a guy like Haaland or N'Golo Kanté can easily fit in the top 5. I also think of Karim Benzema, who is one of the three strongest men of this beginning of the season 21/22, with Lewandowski and Haaland, in terms of stats.
    Behind, for a top 10, Cristiano Ronaldo will be it easily, as always with Lukaku, De Bruyne and Mbappé completing the top 10 in my opinion.
    Tell me what you think, has Messi's "timid" and "slow" start at PSG put his status as favorite for the best player of the year into question ?
    Thanks!
     
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  14. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    what slow start?
     
  15. victorcalello38

    Feb 28, 2017
    Club:
    Montevideo Wanderers FC
    Best players
    1. Lionel Messi (Argentina)
    2. Robert Lewandowski (Poland)
    3. Kylian Mbappé (France)

    Best Team
    Ederson
    Cancelo Stones Dias Shaw
    Jorginho Gundogan
    Mbappe Messi Foden
    Lewandowski
     
    Gregoire1 and Titanlux repped this.
  16. victorcalello38

    Feb 28, 2017
    Club:
    Montevideo Wanderers FC
    Is your list considering only the national leagues or the general season (leagues, UEFA Champions League, Euro, Copa America, etc) of the players? Because I see that the games he scored were only the league ones.
     
  17. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    It covers the general season (so domestic leagues, domestic cups, Champions League etc) but not the major international tournaments. The stats are just for domestic leagues.
     
  18. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    I have amused myself by calculating the total points received by each player in The Best and the totals are as follows:
    1º.- Lewandowski: 1679
    2º.- Messi: 1007
    3º.- Salah: 631
    4º.- Benzema: 494
    5º.- Jorginho: 462
    6º.- Kanté: 347
    7º.- Cristiano Ronaldo: 286
    8º.- De Bruyne: 177
    9º.- Mbappé: 167
    10º.- Haaland: 50
    11º.- Neymar: 37
     
    IceBlood34 repped this.
  19. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    How the hell did Neymar make the list of 11 nominees, ridiculous.
     
  20. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    and how did Jorginho get 462
     
  21. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
     
  22. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    I have calculated all this with Excel, adding up all the scores of the people who voted for The Best award: 5 points for first; 3 points for second and 1 point for third. Those were the results. I didn't see the total sums anywhere and I amused myself doing the calculations.
     
  23. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    moreso outcome bias.

    Just because Chelsea won ucl and Italy won Euro, it doesn't mean Jorginho was such a great performer. There are many components to winning thropies that far exceed any individual's ability and performance, luck is one of those.

    The lack of any critical thinking in those awards is laughable, honestly. Completely off putting.

    Also Varane 4th place in 2018.. LOL
     
  24. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    It seems that the teams plays better with Jorginho though, at least according the website Macro Football. Just because he isn't good in the eyes, doesn't mean he isn't a top top player who contribute a lot for his teams.
     
  25. IceBlood34

    IceBlood34 Member

    Montpellier HSC
    France
    Jan 27, 2021
    How do you know that the point spread is right?
    It seems to me that this point split is what is done with Ballon d'Or but I never saw how the points were done for the Best, knowing that there are four panels of voters, the journalists, the coaches, the captains and the public (with 25% each of voting share).
    And especially that in view of the figures announced, Lewandowski 48 points, Messi 44 points and Salah 39, I would not understand that the gap between Messi and Lewandowski (600 votes according to your calculations) is greater than Messi Salah, while the gap by points is greater between the Argentine and the Egyptian (400 votes).
     

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