The best players of the 1986 World Cup

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Jan 24, 2013.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #51 PuckVanHeel, Oct 16, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2013
    To be fair, Bearzot says in the same article that foreigners occupy the key positions in the Serie A, so he needs to select fresh blood that are at their clubs lieutenants of the foreign stars (in my estimation, this is also a problem of current England team to a degree). Yes, he says this literally.
    It also states that the Italian prominent journalists criticized him for not refreshing and being a nostalgic. He remained loyal to his 1982 stars and even used the same squad numbers as much as possible, as superstition, he said.

    As promised, I had a look and what Platini himself said about his own chances and the one of the team is a bit contradictory. I use public sources on this place, taken from reasonably long articles:

    21/05/1986
    "The footballer has suffered more as he himself likes to admit, over-cropping isn't the situation. 'It is strange', says Platini theatrically, 'but journalists do not judge me by what I do, but by what I have to in their opinion. But you can be assured, in Mexico I will be in shape. The Italian league is tough, I admit that, but psychologically I can handle all this. Football remains for me a game.'
    [...]
    'Football stops for me at Juventus, where I want to play one or maybe two seasons. The tragedy at Brussels caused so many scars that I have no further aspirations at the club level, but it will not be easy to forget top level football.'
    [...]
    'Compared with him', praises Juventus player Bonini his captain, 'we are all just simple workers.'
    [...]
    'The problem of every team', as Platini underlines the increasing level of difficulty, 'is the scoring of goals. That is also true for us, certainly now José Toure is not among us due to an injury. At the striker position we miss a piece of physical power. Papin is too light for this type of work.' Platini denies fiercely that this French team is past their peak level. 'Our game is not better and not worse as in 1984. The strength of France today is though that we play for a few years together in almost exactly the same composition, which should help to build a cohesive team.'
    "
    http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd:010566042:mpeg21:p009:a0209
    [this interview appeared in a few newspapers]

    30/05/1986
    "'Three weeks of training camp is long', says Platini while passing by. And he also adds to all reporters: '... and tiring.'
    [...]
    But for how long will he be in the spotlights? Exactly two years ago the 30 years old player revealed to the world that the 1986 World Cup can be his last trick. 'I suspect that I will be at the end of my forces, and maybe I have by then seen the moment to distance myself radically from everything.'

    'Ah yes', he now says, 'I indeed said this. But at the moment I feel young and fit. Besides, I extended my contract at Juventus for a year. It is at the moment not an issue.'
    [...]
    Then there is the question how he will be present for the national team after Mexico. 'Yes, that is another question...' He doesn't say it, but without much fantasy he wants to make it clear that he has his doubts.
    [...]
    'I am afraid that the team is past the peak level. The European championship was the summit, but it seems that the lights went out after this championship at a few players. Especially Alain Giresse has a lot of problems, while he is incredibly important for the team and also for my own individual performance. Thanks to Alain Giresse I can play my game too. If Alain wants to make one final effort, I have some more hope again.'
    [...]
    Platini says later 'off the record' in supposed confidentiality: 'Please don't tell anything towards your foreign colleagues. Right now we cannot use any trouble within the squad. Together with Henri Michel [national team manager] we are for a while busy to get the bunch sharp. If I reveal now that I have doubts, everything will be for nothing perhaps.'
    [...]
    What is precisely the main issue? Platini: 'If Giresse can do it for one last time, then the midfield is again no problem. That is also true for Bats and the frontline. The defence is a worry though and especially the center for me. Both Bossis and Battiston are former full-backs, who lack a bit of that killer instinct, which you sometimes need at a World Cup. Therefore we can become vulnerable at actual matches.' He is quiet for a moment and says then again: 'But please, do not tell against French journalists.'
    [...]
    'Italy, Argentina, West Germany, England and Spain possess the greatest chances in my regard. Further, the differences in capabilities will be at a minimal level. Everyone knows after all how the game should be played in Mexico. Preferably with a lot of circulation of the ball, and as little power football as possible. That is also the way France prefers to play, as long as everything fits into the right place.'
    "
    http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd:011207208:mpeg21:p023:a0317

    Bit of a contradiction in comments isn't it?

    Also on paper I saw this but maybe the comments also depend on when the interview was taken. It can make a difference whether it was directly after the club season, or when he was already for two weeks in a camp with the national team.
     
    babaorum repped this.
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes, Germany had proceeded as second best third, with 2 points and a goal difference of 0.

    Uruguay needed 'only' two wins to retain their title in 1987. They had a bye.

    Starting from the debut of Francescoli, these were the matches against European teams until 1990 (first retirement of Francescoli)

    479 Scotland 21.09.1983 Glasgow, SCO 0-2
    480 Israel 26.09.1983 Jaffa, ISR 2-2
    485 England 13.06.1984 Montevideo, URU 2-0 William Poole Cup
    492 East Germany 29.01.1985 Montevideo, URU 3-0
    496 Finland 14.02.1985 Montevideo, URU 2-1
    508 France 21.08.1985 Paris, FRA 0-2 Intercontinental Cup
    512 Poland 16.02.1986 Montevideo, URU 2-2
    514 Wales 21.04.1986 Wrexham, WAL 0-0
    515 Ireland 23.04.1986 Dublin, IRL 1-1
    516 West Germany 04.06.1986 Querétaro, MEX 1-1 World Cup
    517 Denmark 08.06.1986 Neza, MEX 1-6 World Cup
    518 Scotland 13.06.1986 Neza, MEX 0-0 World Cup
    531 Italy 22.04.1989 Verona, ITA 1-1
    552 West Germany 25.04.1990 Stuttgart, GER 3-3
    553 N. Ireland 18.05.1990 Belfast, NIR 0-1 Stanley Rous Cup
    554 England 22.05.1990 London, ENG 2-1
    555 Spain 13.06.1990 Udine, ITA 0-0 World Cup
    556 Belgium 17.06.1990 Verona, ITA 1-3 World Cup
    558 Italy 25.06.1990 Rome, ITA 0-2 World Cup

    http://www.rsssf.com/tablesu/uru-intres.html

    For looking at strength versus European teams (Francescoli played in most of them so I suppose Uruguay played with a representative team).
     
  3. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    There is no doubt that Bilardo wanted Maradona (as written) but the 'pressure" he got from around Argentina at time was different story. I remember reading from either Placar or France foot... -= can't quite remember ...

    But one can find a similar point here;

    " ...The 1986 edition of Argentina, however, was managed by Carlos Bilardo, a much more pragmatic, defense-minded tactician.

    Many Argentines were highly critical of his style and pessimistic about the team's chances in Mexico, especially after Bilardo axed talismanic captain Daniel Passarella and put Maradona in charge.

    In an interview with Carlos Jurado for Marca in 2006, Bilardo said there were plenty of naysayers in Argentina before the tournament:

    I remember that there were many articles criticizing Diego before the World Cup. Because I made him captain in place of Passarella and that he shouldn't even be in the squad after what happened in Spain in '82, let alone the starting side. That Maradona was a failure for the national team.

    They said to me, 'Bochini is better than Maradona', and I didn't respond.

    Diego himself said to me, 'we're on our own.' And look what happened then.

    Maradona and Bilardo would soon silence the critics with extreme prejudice."

    ============================================

    Now at copa, I never said Maradona played badly at copa, but surely they were far from what Maeradona's best that most people remembered ... like WC86, or at Napoli 87, 89 .. as a "true leader, and true winner!
    Like many did say Messi was good at WC2010, yeah but that was far off from what we seen or expected to see him at barca!
     
  4. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
  5. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    Thats what I thought...
    We were discussing Argentina being considered a favorite by the bookmakers for the 1986. We were discussing that in a thread titled "What were the odds in the tournament?". For some reason, you started taking the trouble of moving it all here, to a thread dedicated to discuss the best performers of the 1986 WC... Why on earth does it belong here and not there?, I wonder... (I am not really expecting to receive any explanation at this point...)

    Spoiling it? I think you just cant handle a few simple questions and it bothers you that I ask them is all. In any case, what is your idea, to bring it all over here to "spoil" this thread instead?
    It really surprised me how you acted. So quickly you started showing discomfort and got hostile. I just wanted to know what you meant with certain statements of yours, thats all. I'll go over it tomorrow if I have time. Not here though, but in the thread where our discussion belongs.
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Nope, the discussion became one to put Maradona on a pedestal, like many times before. And because that is again the hidden theme of the discussion you engaged, it belongs here. He became, again, the center of the discussion.
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/...-the-tournaments.1945504/page-2#post-28825775

    Ah, here it is. My initial answers - concerning why the bookmakers made the estimates they made - did not satisfy you. Or it were not the answers you want to hear. That is al right but don't say that I don't answer them, which is what you said and derailed the whole discussion.

    I did not want to dwell over it too much on that thread, dedicated to noting the odds (or favourites) of each tournament.

    The first to show hostility was yours.
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/...-the-tournaments.1945504/page-3#post-28830606
     
  7. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I don't question the overall criticism that surrounded that team. The results had not been always good, guys like Garre and Gareca were very resisted and many in the press wanted Bilardo's head. But to state that the teammates didn't want Diego on the team is bizarre and I can't recall that, especially when one considers that no one really had an established position on that team other than some entrenched player like Passarella or Maradona himself.

    In regards to the Copa of '79: As stated before, Menotti and Maradona departed in the middle of the tournament in order to prepare for the youth WC in Japan, which would turn out to be a complete success. AFA did not give priority to the Copa, fielding mostly B teams.

    Yes, many contradictions, depending on what source you read.

    I had posted this before, when El Grafico had interviewed him and he said this:
     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    The 1979 Copa America match is available on youtube and also for a download on some website. I've seen the game and both Maradona and Zico did not see much of the ball. Zico did have a goal and assist though in a 2:1 win and both played fine.

    Do you know at what time the interview was taken? Maybe that is important here, as said.
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    OK, I disagree with you then. Morocco was relatively a bad side, lacking any punch and England did not play well either.

    What was the easiest route to the semi-final?

    Uruguay-England?
    USSR-Spain?
    Italy-Brazil?
    Morocco-Mexico?
     
  10. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    If Maradona is in a place you dont like him to be it is not my fault, and I did not put him there either. If we are discussing the factors that might have made Argentina a favorite in the eyes of the bookmakers, you know, in the thread where we are taking a look at the main contenders for tournaments, Maradona is part of the discussion. And btw, I dont remember asking you one single thing about Maradona... How did I make him the center of the discussion in your eyes, I dont understand.

    Your initial answers I found confusive and/or unclear. So I asked you to clarify them... That is when you started getting hostile, accused me of things, stated claiming I said things I had not said and such... You could have just explained your initial statements instead...

    Is this your answer to my question "Why on earth does it belong here and not there?"?
    If so, you might think in your own head that you answered it, but I do not see here an explanation as to why this discussion of ours related to what might have made Argentina a favorite for the bookmakers belongs in a thread dedicated to discuss the best performers of a tournament and not in the thread actually made to see what teams were seen as favorites. I could ask you again about it, but you will start accusing me of derailing the discussion, putting Maradona on a pedestal and saying I claim you did not answer questions you already answered... So, phuc it.

    Do you feel anything in that post of mine is false or uncalled for? I recently saw you going after someone (dont remember who) regarding El Charro Moreno because he had claimed something you did not like about him, demanding evidence. I figured you of all people would not have had trouble with a few questions.
     
  11. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Having just rewatched all the 1986 footage it reinforced to me the difficulty of handing out these rankings over such a short period (with some people playing 3 games at most).

    Certainly I'd downgrade both Ruggeri and Olsen to **, I'd struggle to separate Zaki from Pfaff or Schumacher. Schumacher as well played well overall but then made a terrible howler in the final.

    Equally Butragueno was amazing in one game, but not a huge amount beyond.

    Hoddle was strong in a few games, particularly against Paraguay. Enrique was impressive as well at times.

    Going back to Fraser's point, Strachan, as well as scoring a good goal, also created a really good opening for Gough in the first game and also started the move which in turn saw Nicol fire a tame shot at goal. What sort of rating do those add up to.

    Very difficult all round really.
     
  12. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I don't know the exact date, but it was published right before France's debut in their camp in Mexico.
     
  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Wow, that's a big (if enjoyable I guess) task comme and I guess it's even difficult to take in everything (although in theory you could take in just as much as I did when I watched pretty much every minute of WC94 IIRC).

    You might have seen on the draft thread that I found these ratings from France Football on this link (from 1970 onwards, using the matchfacts tab as described on the player ratings tab):
    http://www.everyfourthyear.com/worldcup1986/
    Not that you need more opinions necessarily if you watched every game, but Butragueno's next best rating was 4 and he only got that once. I don't know what you thought of Ceulemans' performances? France Football seem to have given him a 5 vs USSR and a 4 in every other game - the USSR game is one I could watch in full and I didn't necessarily think he stood out so much in that game myself wheras seeing extended highlights of for example the Spain game and the 3rd place play-off might have given me a better impression (but perhaps the goals also sway me as they were probably a bit better IMO than the one vs USSR). Maybe the fact the USSR were on the attack a lot takes the attention away from Ceulemans.

    Vercauteren's ratings go down in the latter stages and Scifo does get some 2/6 ratings which backs up the under-performing idea I suppose (maybe his retrospective young player award is partly because there was a lack of qualifying players - would Laudrup and Butragueno be just too old?, and because he was a renowned star and did have some moments such as his goal vs USSR and a disallowed free-kick goal vs Paraguay - one of his 2/6 games according to France Football though).
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Maybe it is an idea to calculate and post the average ratings for each tournament? Will not do that myself though.
     
    msioux75 repped this.
  16. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I know you mentioned this before, but I'm not sure if it's clear: was Passarella part of the squad throughout the entire course of the WC86 tournament, was he with the team for all matches? I just don't remember him being part of the celebrations after the final win against Germany.

    From these brackets, I would say USSR and Spain/Denmark gives a team the best chances of advancing to the semis in a Cup tournament, as back then USSR and Spain were known for playing good football but not getting the needed result when it mattered.

    Morocco played some nice football in their four matches, I don't see where you get that they were a bad side, they split the table (1-2-1) against four European opponents, including two former WC winners and two sides that had reached the semifinals of the previous edition.
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    And Morocco and Mexico were known for getting the achievements when it mattered?

    You yourself said that Spain deserved better in 1986.

    USSR could be dangerous for everyone. Including for Italy 2 years later at euro88.
     
  18. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    He was always a part of the squad, he wasn't cut from the side or anything of that sort. But he did end up in the hospital for some time due to contracting an intestinal virus disease. He did get his medal in the end though with the team in Mexico.
     
    Pipiolo repped this.
  19. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Sorry, just to clarify I didn't watch each game in its entirety. In many cases I only watched extended highlights (ten mins or so), but from those I was able to get a pretty good feel for the tournament as a whole.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    That of the hospital at Mexico City was on 22th of June. He lost 3 kilograms of weight.

    He lost the first two games because of troubles with his stomach. The two matches after that because of some troubles with his leg. And then they found out that he lost weight, too rapidly. This also affected his recovery once they found out what the problem was, the Argentinian team doctor said.
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I can imagine that rating all 22 players might be very difficult too.
     
  22. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Mexico is always tough at their home, and that team had some very good players in Sanchez, Aguirre, Larios, Flores, Quirarte and Negrete. To me, it's the best Mexican side along with the one from WC94.

    Spain slightly outplayed Belgium in their matchup, they could well have advanced with a bit more luck, but their forwards Butragueno and Salinas let them down in that match, plus Pfaff was amazing. Still, until last WC, Spain always had a reason that kept them from reaching a semifinal at the WC.
     
  23. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Yeah, he had issues right on the eve of the debut, which caught the viewers by surprise, since he was originally listed to start the opening match from what I remember, but suddenly the team had to make the change for Brown.
     
  24. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Ah ok, sorry - yeah that makes sense and did according to what you initially typed as I doubt all the games are available to see in their entirity. I guess those France Football ratings, among other similar things, are certainly useful/enlightening to an extent for you then.
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Maybe the reason why this 'myth' of a cut could develop is because Passarella did openly criticise Bilardo and made praising remarks for Borghi at the expense of Maradona. I.e. he was not happy about losing his captaincy and cut players like Trossero said in the papers that Passarella would nevertheless be seen as the real leader and hero instead of Bilardo or anyone else.
    In a test game against a club side a week or so before the tournament started Passarella was also sent off the pitch and apparently Bilardo made little attempt for seeing it otherwise (not sure though, but this was written; Passarella was anyway sent off in that test game against a club side halfway May 1986).

    I'm not sure of course but interesting that this developed into a myth, often written in printed press and newspapers later on (when they look back at the 1986 tournament).
     

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