........... Yes very nice informations my dear friend ...yes I knew it about B. Laudrup already i mean i remember from that .. The young People .. don't realize this ..at all ... the fans of Messi ... the fans of Ronaldinho Gaucho ... the fans of Neymar jr. don't realize this ... the difficult in the Italian League 80's .. and in the Old European Cup (current Uefa Champions League) 80's .... don't had group phases ... was play-offs always ( losing backs to the Home already ).... in 1987/88 ... played ... Napoles vs Real Madrid ... in the first knockout stage ... so that's it ... man !! really ... was too much harder .. than today's Football .... the game was much more violent ...the fouls ... no redcards ..even ..the most of times there !!
............ yes i agree with you mate ... Ac Milan ... 80's never really reaching their full potential ..... by injuries .. too !! 1987/88 ... Van Basten injured ... 1988/89 ... Gullit and Donadoni injured ... 1989/90 Gullit ... injured ... Van Basten ... one part in the starting of the season ... 1990/91 ... Gullit ... Maldini ... vs Olimpia ... shoulder injured ... later Van Basten per sempre .!
............ from Barcelona ... 1993/94 ... don't knew that .. so sad at all ... i remember it when i was watching ...Barcelona 1996/97 playing Cup winners Cup ... playing very very well ... Figo ... Stoichkov and Ronaldo Nazario ... always shows ..in bRazil the games .. from this season at all ...
I meant English clubs couldn't use all their British/foreign players in Euro competitions of course too (pre-Bosman) - I realise I made a typo or forgot to add the word not before, somehow! Anyway, yeah, in Euro competitions there was a rule allowing a certain number of complete foreigners, and a couple of 'assimilated' players (normally non-English British/Irish players for an English club). It didn't always exist though (not when 1980s Liverpool were at their height of success, using many Scottish, Welsh, Irish players).
............. nice informations dear mate ! .. i remember abit from this ... on English teams ... i saw so many many matches ..Liverpool with Kevin Keegan ... i guess 1977 ... later Hamburg ..from Germany ... .. by Opta criterios ... how many goals and assists has Ronaldinho Gaucho by Opta Criterios ??? you know inform me correctly ?????
..... in Brazil for less it ... comes ... Ronaldinho with 816 matches ,,,... 302 goals ...... and 232 assists, indirect assists and pre-assists ... including together already . !
@Trachta10 is maybe the best one to ask about total Opta-standard assists by Ronaldinho I think mate (because his career goes back before the start of WhoScored for example, even though Opta was already an active company and producing some data for for example the Premier League I think). I don't remember if Trachta does have a full summary, but I seem to remember he features in his 'database' of goal contributions (I think)....
.......... yes i agree with you .. dear mate ... Ronaldinho Gaucho .. at TransferMarkt has ... direct assists ...indirect assists and pre-assists .. together there ...... I Prefer to do ... Direct assists and indirect assists .. to the only one category ... and Pre-assists ... another category of numbers ...But at Transfers Markt is all mixing ... and i don't really confidence them ... putting ... so many many assists by more++++++ even at Psg ... i saw wrongs there ..
I'm not sure whether they show pre-assists (but maybe you're right and they do, sometimes anyway), but for sure they show very wide assists (various rebounds and suchlike, penalties won...) compared to Opta. Sometimes the Transfermarkt data is incomplete because they haven't yet discovered who the assisters were in some games though, so it's necessary to check the pages for each game and see if they have allocated any assists. But it's useful as a guide to see their pages and data I guess anyway. Nice long Liverpool 1976/77 video you found! I was thinking about players you named in your top 50 (originally or finally) that I hadn't included when I went a bit crazy lol, and did this exercise (to select 250, and in the end 500, players more evenly among positions than normal): https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/bigsoccer-top-250.1695463/page-2#post-39103711 https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/bigsoccer-top-250.1695463/page-2#post-39118040 There are a few players I think that you named that I didn't put there, but one example is Mauro Ramos (another Brazilian member also rated him very highly I remember). I see that Gianni Brera (famous Italian critic, who seemingly could be very opinionated and sometimes very harsh on certain players) seemed to be of the opinion that Mauro Ramos might be the best sweeper/centre back ever: IL FURORE SPORTIVO SOVIETICO CI MANCHERA' - la Repubblica.it Do you remember any specific games (even if no video is available) where he played at his best (which could be good for this 'best games of best players thread)? Do you remember any particular Keegan games for Hamburg, Liverpool, England (for the Hamburg ones I think Kicker website might be of some help due to the journalist grades being available for each match, but maybe you can even remember some examples in your mind....although it's a long time ago - the available video is mainly highlights I think though, except for some examples - he did play well for sure vs Real Madrid in 1980 I remember feeling, and for England vs Argentina and Brazil around that time I'd say too, and there is the 1977 European Cup Final of course)?
By the way I guess it's possible if I did the exercise again I'd make some changes: hard to judge but maybe now I err to potentially picking Pedernera sooner or suggesting him for more of a key role in a squad, or I might err to thinking Jean Vincent can make it in a squad somewhere as a left winger...and then would there be more recent players or not (eg would I start to consider Harry Kane somewhere...but if I didn't put in Ibrahimovic as striker or false striker before then maybe not>...or already Florian Wirtz...but if I didn't use a place for Ariel Ortega to be an AM or supporting forward before then maybe not....?)
............. I can say like this ..dear mate ! .. I'm brazilian at all But i don't have pre-concepts against anyplayer in the whole World ... even .. when i'm watching massive games ... older games ... i can do this .. with too much love and passion ... I love All Sports ...in the World ... Boxe ...Football ... Mix Martial Arts .. Fights MMA .. Olympic games . yes Keegan ... i saw him ... against Brazil 1x1 ... and 1x0 .... against Argentina 3 x 1 ... including Uefa Cup games too ... Mauro Ramos .. and Zito ... were players ... with a great positional play .. with leadership at the same time ... great technique ... i saw them playing for Santos FC in Brazil ...
Thanks mate (yes those games by Keegan vs Brazil and Argentina will be the same ones I thought about, although I only saw long highlights I think and maybe you saw the full games back at the time). Yes, I guess you saw quite a few Santos games that are now not available. I have noticed and been impressed by Zito's play indeed in World Cup games (including the Final in both 1958 and 1962), but I guess I haven't noticed Mauro Ramos quite so much (I maybe didn't watch the 1962 Final as carefully/fully as the 1958 one yet though, but yeah it seems like he was renowned as a defender with technique and defensive qualities combined indeed, like you say (maybe a bit like Figueroa of Chile? - I'm not sure).
............ River La Maquina ... was the real precursor of the Total Football from Holland ... Pedernera ... was a false nine a very few of times ... winger left ... midfielder left ... !!
............. no Style of Figueroa ... but with the Style of Franco Baresi ... Scirea ... Collovatti ..from Italy in 1982 .. and Roma ... later .. but marking ... much more with a correct positioning .. with very very calm ... tackle ...later .. pass to Nilton Santos ... Mauro Ramos .. was greater to do good covers to the team ... with a budha soul ...in the field ...
Yes, I have seen a little bit of the River Plate teams from the 1940s, in highlights (also Loustau has been impressive to me in those for example) and noticed some neat and creative play by Pedernera - I don't remember where they all are right now, but I remember somebody did even put this Youtube 'short' online, with a nice piece of control and pass by him to Munoz (the right winger who Di Stefano named as one of the 5 famous La-Maquina forwards with Moreno-Pedernera-Labruna-Loustau): PASE DE ADOLFO PEDERNERA A MUÑOZ (1942) (youtube.com) And I know some guys rated Pedernera as the best forward/player they had seen (in the late 1940s for example, also having seen players like Friedenreich and Piendibene) - not all guys did though of course, and that Di Stefano said he was a great example about how to play football (for him) and a very complete attacking player. But of course, with little footage, and playing so long ago, it's a bit hard to really make a good comparison with later players (or imagine just how soon he might potentially be drafted in an exercise like I did there, if all players were available from their primes/peaks).
........... Pedernera .... was like abit Czibor ... with right foot playing for the left ... crossing til to the flank right ... !
Mentioning Loustau reminded me that I hadn't put Mario Zagallo in that exercise I did either, so that's another example of a player you had in your original top 50 idea (and close to your final one still I guess). But I do know him a bit better than Mauro Ramos, and I did already see that Brazil-France game from 1958 in full, and got a good impression of his play from 1962 too (where he even played a bit more withdrawn, more as midfielder, especially once Amarildo was in the team I think maybe; so maybe Zagallo is more comparable to Corso than to Loustau in terms of his best role? - I'm not sure though because Loustau was apparently/evidently also hard working for a winger of that time....and Corso for sure didn't only stick to the left wing in Inter's team). I have a book called All-Time World Cup where the author does also include Zagallo in his own historical top 100 players (as of early 00s) I remember anyway: He was in his 61-70 section which was Klinsmann-Kempes-Ronaldo-Suarez Miramontes-Rivelino-Zagallo-Dalglish-Sekularac-Coluna-Overath (1-10 was Pele-Maradona-Di Stefano-Beckenbauer-Cruyff-Puskas-Best-Garrincha-Platini-Bobby Charlton) Also, Brian Glanville put him in his 100 from the late 90s, so for sure other guys valued Zagallo very highly as a player https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/platini-top-ten-all-time.619847/page-10#post-19046912 https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/platini-top-ten-all-time.619847/page-10#post-19039651 As you can see Glanville was quite 'old-fashioned' in his choices, also compared to some other selections around that time even by IFFHS voters, or World Soccer magazine, overall (but still with some modern players...and you will be pleased to see Gullit so high in his list I guess!).
Yes, he started his career as left winger I believe. Thanks for the info about him being predominantly right footed (it can be assumed but it's hard to be sure about these kind of things with players from that time....but anyway I believe he was quite 'two-sided' anyway too I think wasn't he, able to use his left very well still?).
........... in Brazil ... had one great journalist called Roberto Petri ... he was brazilian at all from São Paulo city ... But ..he knows it ... too much about the quality of great argentinian players ,.,.. he saw so many many game s... that i don't saw them yet ... !!!
...............yes .... he could score with right foot and left foot .. too !! i say more ... when Pedernera is dribbling ...in the River training session .... he's using much more the right foot ... he's a guy with .. dark blue shirt ... and gray pants ... in the training sessions .... at River PLate .... But he could score ...with right and left foot .. for sure ... as Czibor .. could do it aswell ... and very well ... he scores one goal like this against ..Uruguay after heading passing by Sandor Kocsis ... !!!
.............. Mario Zagallo ... had 5 assists in 1962 ... two assists .. by Garrincha ..with header goals against England and Chile ... low crosses against Spain goal by Amarildo ... Crossing by Garrincha Chile game again ... crossing ... to Zito in the final in 1962 ... Zagallo .. was the Style of Van Hanegem or Brehme ... but with much more agility ... stamina ... sprint speed ... dynamic moments ..... but both Total footballers ... !!!
Where is Garrincha in this list? I agree that he is one of the most overrated players in history, but despite his very good performance in the 1958 and 1962 World Cups, he deserves to be on the list.
It seems like the database is now working for the time being and they give this as 10/10 players for the World Cup. Obviously not every tournament is the same and for example Switzerland in 1966 had an Elo rank outside the top 40 (pretty much the weakest of all 16 teams). Another hard one is Henry vs Inter in 2004 because if you go to his personal page it shows a dash, presumably because the data is not complete. I leave him out but didn't check this for all others players and those are all in. World Cups (since 1966 - sorted as shown on website) Eusebio (Portugal) vs North Korea 1966 Eusebio (Portugal) vs Brazil 1966 Beckenbauer (West-Germany) vs Switzerland 1966 Haller (West-Germany) vs Uruguay 1966 Cubillas (Peru) vs Morocco 1970 Tostao (Brazil vs Peru 1970 Szarmach (Poland) vs Haiti 1974 Cubillas (Peru) vs Iran 1978 Flohe (West-Germany) vs Mexico 1978 Quiroga (Peru) vs Netherlands 1978 Rummenigge (West-Germany) vs Chile 1982 Maradona (Argentina) vs Hungary 1982 Zico (Brazil) vs New Zealand 1982 Maradona (Argentina) vs Belgium 1986 Elkjaer-Larsen (Denmark) vs Uruguay 1986 Butragueno (Spain) vs Denmark 1986 Bats (France) vs Brazil 1986 Matthaus (West-Germany) vs Yugoslavia 1990 Salenko (Russia) vs Cameroon 1994 Ortega (Argentina) vs Jamaica 1998 Pauleta (Portugal) vs Poland 2002 Howard (USA) vs Belgium 2014 I'd personally say this also places for ex. Cruijff his performance and average rating in 1974 in some further context. European Championships (since 1980 - sorted as shown on website) Platini (France) vs Belgium 1984 Toldo (Italy) vs Belgium 2000 David Villa (Spain) vs Russia 2008 (group stage, not semi-final) Hazard (Belgium) vs Hungary 2016 Copa America they have since 2016 (thus also 2019, 2021 and 2024) but no player has a 10.0 rating though Messi and others have been close at times. Champions League (since 2003 - sorted as shown on website) For this I'll only show the first inclusion for said player. Players as Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Neymar, Lewandowski, Kroos, Robben have more than one, others as Stones or Neuer have only one. I think only including the first mention does more justice to the earlier players that have often not as many games in the database or where not all games are rated. Nonetheless, I think you can see an increase in high ratings compared to the mid-00s, arguably (more 'defensive' and higher fouls per game). This is for me also more about the peak a player was capable of. Some like Neuer seem to have their only 10.0 rating of their entire Champions League career when going to extra time and penalties, but that is what it is. Prso (Croatia, Monaco) vs Depor 2003-04 Tuncay Sanli (Turkey, Fenerbahce) vs Manchester United 2004-05 Van Nistelrooij (Netherlands, Man United) vs Sparta Praha 2004-05 Shevchenko (Ukraine, AC Milan) vs Fenerbahce 2005-06 C. Ronaldo (Portugal, Man United) vs AS Roma 2006-07 Fabregas (Spain, Arsenal) vs Slavia Praha 2007-08 Benayoun (Israel, Liverpool) vs Besiktas 2007-08 Neuer (Germany, Schalke) vs Porto 2007-08 (120 minutes + penalties) Jadson (Brazil, Shakhtar) vs Basel 2008-09 Messi (Argentina, Barcelona) vs Arsenal 2009-10 Arshavin (Russia, Arsenal) vs Braga 2010-11 Robben (Netherlands, Bayern) vs Basel 2011-12 Jonas (Brazil, Valencia) vs Genk 2011-12 Gomis (France, Lyon) vs Dinamo Zagreb 2011-12 Kroos (Germany, Bayern) vs Villarreal 2011-12 Mata (Spain, Chelsea) vs Nordsjaelland 2012-13 Moutinho (Portugal, Porto) vs Dinamo Zagreb 2012-13 Neymar (Brazil, Barcelona) vs Celtic 2013-14 Tevez (Argentina, Juventus) vs Malmo 2014-15 Nani (Portugal, Sporting) vs Maribor 2014-15 Koke (Spain, Atletico) vs Malmo 2014-15 Salah (Egypt, Liverpool) vs AS Roma 2017-18 Firmino (Brazil, Liverpool) vs AS Roma 2017-18 (the same match, semi-final) Stones (England, Man City) vs Feyenoord 2017-18 Coutinho (Brazil, Liverpool) vs Maribor 2017-18 Tadic (Serbia, Ajax) vs Real Madrid 2018-19 Di Maria (Argentina, PSG) vs RB Leipzig 2019-20 Ilicic (Slovenia, Atalanta) vs Valencia 2019-20 Lewandowski (Poland, Bayern) vs Chelsea 2019-20 Rodrygo (Brazil, Real Madrid) vs Galatasaray 2019-20 Gnabry (Germany, Bayern) vs Tottenham 2019-20 Sterling (England, Man City) vs Atalanta 2019-20 Plea (France, Monchengladbach) vs Shakhtar 2020-21 Giroud (France, Chelsea) vs Sevilla 2020-21 Mbappe (France, PSG) vs Barcelona 2020-21 Dybala (Argentina, Juventus) vs Zenit 2021-22 Haller (Ivory Coast, Ajax) vs Sporting 2021-22 Haaland (Norway, Man City) vs RB Leipzig 2022-23 Cancelo (Portugal, Barcelona) vs Porto 2023-24 (with Pepe scoring for Porto!) Julian Alvarez (Argentina, Man City) vs Crvena Zvezda 2023-24 As some have remarked, Kroos is here in most seasons higher rated than Modric (Pirlo vs Seedorf is a bit less clear, with smaller margins, and sometimes the other way around). This is maybe also a thing of getting the best out of your players, enhancing strengths and concealing weaknesses (Liverpool vs Roma 2018 semi-final?). I've also noticed now, but not all games are rated as I said, that Van der Sar was the best rated goalkeeper in each of his last three Champions League seasons (2008-09, 2009-10 and 2010-11 - 13th overall in the last one). Not 100% watertight for sure - but honestly, with my orange glasses off, that VvD is just as in WhoScored the best rated center-back in the database does not surprise me.