He was brilliant in the first half, amazed at the ease with which he consistently broke Arsenal's press as Arteta noted there.
Not saying I've the final answer, but; As Arteta indicates, his team tried to shut down the opposing midfield. That might not be always successful - however if it's say only 30% of the time successful (or 70%) then it makes a difference in terms of passing quantity (in actual accuracy some of the midfielders still do extremely well). Bielsa and others have tried the same, including placing pressure on one of the center backs or both. Matip and/or Gomez can both play football. For a part it's also Liverpool's own set-up, how they want to play, and it will be interesting to see what happens when Thiago doesn't play against ten opponents. I believe the 'six' has often been the one that looks the best midfielder for them, on the eye. Maybe it's a factor that they don't have a De Bruyne (compilation) in their team (who, noticeably, doesn't watch football of other clubs). Then there's also VvD his own quality (as signaled very early, and for overall lesser teams against much better teams), including his relative comfort with his weaker foot (passmap in the link) and that he's actually quite press-resistant himself (this is an overlooked facet though with teams sometimes pressing all over the field increasingly important, you have to win the offensive and defensive duels) and good in off the ball movement. The margin of error is small, as highlighted a few days ago: "Of the three errors he has made leading to opposition shots, all have been punished by goals. Wolves' Willy Boly has made nine errors leading to opposition shots in the same period of time, but none have resulted in a goal. In 3,600 minutes of football since the start of last season he has made three errors leading to an opposition shot - that's one every 1,200 minutes, one every 13.33 games." 1309883488095604738 is not a valid tweet id 🔴 Virgil Van Dijk at Camp Nou? 😏 He's been there before 💪#UCL #TBT #ThrowbackThursday pic.twitter.com/lPx6CzcTyW— UEFA Champions League (@ChampionsLeague) April 25, 2019 (the consecutive clean sheets record of 13 games and 1256 minutes in the Scottish 'pinball' or 'hustle bustle' league is a good achievement; with the league format existing for over 100 years) By the way, in the 'stone age' it also regularly happened John Terry had the most passes and highest passing accuracy of Chelsea (or even the league). What's more remarkable is the (considerable) progressive nature of the passes and the high volume of this. In all Premier League seasons since they recorded this it was a midfielder with the most passes of the league, until the last two seasons.
The compilation of this (as well as Italy recently) has appeared on youtube - probably deleted when you read - and I think the 'standard scene' of him having time to spray the ball around isn't so great (Ake, who has started well for City can do that too, and a handful/dozen other center backs). No, what's great is he can do this under pressure, with the recipient even having an opponent nearby, or with his movement escaping the pressure. Also doing it (sometimes) in his stride rather than from an idle situation. See also the miscontrols data.
I noted that too, subtle moves and anticipating the pressure to receive the ball in more space. David Luiz and Bonucci f.e. are more susceptible to mistakes in those situations
@PDG1978 You might appreciate this video, he was then 34.5 years old. He had his first and only ESM team of the month selection then (not only for this game, Sevilla and Espanyol in the same month as well). Shows his footballing quality well, outside of scoring goals. Has nine goals in major tournaments as well etc. As said before, I don't think he was at his highest prominence when he was playing here but he picked three players of those early days in this one: "Henrik Larsson picks his all star eleven from the players he's played with for club and country." It came back in my mind (to youtube him) after he was included in that book with an entry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrik_Larsson#Honours
Thought De Jong was great yesterday against a good opponent with their best team and that wanted to win. The Dutch national team also received compliments in the Italian newspapers for the performance in Bergamo. "Never has a team crushed us as much as the Netherlands since we are 'this' Italy", wrote Gazzetta dello Sport. According to Corriere dello Sport, Frenkie de Jong played like an "absolute champion". The FC Barcelona midfielder received the highest rating of all players from the newspaper: a 7.5. Barella of Italy also very good, just as Chiellini although he again escaped cautions for repeated elbowing (referee Taylor, familiar name, didn't see). Barella received a (too high?) 9/10 by Gazzetta. Special mention for Pepe of Portugal too against France. They improved after I sent the tweet, of course.— Leander “same handle *elsewhere*” Schaerlaeckens (@LeanderAlphabet) October 14, 2020
De Jong really grew into the game, completely dominated the midfield in the 2nd half. As you say, against a very good midfield too (Verratti, Barella, Jorginho, Locatelli...)
@comme This is another good example of what I meant... For @Gazzetta_it Frenkie de Jong was the best player on the field (7.5), for @CorSport the best player on the pitch was Cillessen (7.5). Frank de Boer receives a lot of praise in the Italian media for his approach. Many insufficient grades among the Azzurri. --> How is Memphis rated? With above sufficient scores (6.5): as mature player and leader, who had the winning goal on his shoe and with fierce duels gave Chiellini a lot of work. ---> Okay VI gave him a 5 and I agreed more with it. He lost a lot of ball and the standard situations were lousy. He can play much better. It was not my opinion either, ;-). But I think Italians are impressed by his appearance in the field. He kept both Bonucci and Chiellini busy. In the Netherlands, people were impressed by Spinazzola, which in turn the Italian media do not understand. --> In any case, it was a fun game to watch and of a decent enough level. This is a good journalist anyway; his 2007 book very good too (called 'suspicious crosses' about, inter alia, the subtleties of 'G14 referees' and their commission bosses). Yes I agree. There was beforehand scepticism about suddenly playing 3-5-2 and the cold start didn't help. Then they grew further in the match, without reaching the best heights. Some good combinations though, must be visible in the highlights I reckon. Third system in three games. Very curious how this will turn out. Again with hardly time to grind it in. It took Louis van Gaal weeks to get this right. Ronald Koeman got rid of this after a few duels. 5-3-2 is not that easy for a team that is used to 4-2-3-1. Against an Italy that has been set and plays with their best possible formation. --> All the players play at a different club and league too, doesn't help to suddenly change. --> Guess De Boer thinks and has messaged to his players something might be expected from the so called best defender in Italy and so called best defender in the English league. Noblesse oblige. Barella also good but his Italian ratings look exaggerated a bit... and not in tune with the text as well.
Gazzetta paper paying homage to Frenkie De jong after Italy vs Netherlands match. "He is the best CM in the world and on his way to being a great like Pirlo, Modric etc. Thats huge compliment. https://t.co/LThXQJXyyo— Christopher alex🖐 (@MightyGIn07) October 15, 2020
Correction; Barella received a 6.5 by Gazzetta. De Jong was in the first game, in September, rated as the best of his team and 3rd best overall as well.
Baresi’s performance in this is the definition of GOAT tier. Dude was 34, had an injured knee and had cramp problems plus this was the only game he played in 1994 WC.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=emb_title&time_continue=10&v=UEeR2tgj5GE https://thesefootballtimes.co/2016/09/30/where-does-the-world-class-talent-of-jari-litmanen-rank/
@PuckVanHeel - Since you in effect alerted me to Footballia.net still being available I did decide to watch some games myself, not necessarily to post here afterwards but potentially if I felt reason to.... I'm watching two games this afternoon, 45 minutes at a time, so thus far I've got through the first half of this game (Netherlands vs Norway 1995): https://footballia.net/matches/netherlands-norway Maybe Puck you even watched it at the time, but it wasn't one I'd have seen (or been able to see even I guess), and I'd not even realised the Overmars goal from the second half was definitely from this game (btw that remind me randomly lol - I have a feeling on one of the Yashin Youtube compilations is a great save that does probably happen to be from the game vs Argentina in 1961 although it seems to be missed off the actual 'Yashin vs Argentina 1961' video itself - that's more relevant perhaps to the discussion about goalkeepers on the Ballon d'Or thread although a 'great save by a great goalkeeper' so vaguely on topic here!). As half expected it is so far an excellent game by Overmars himself I would say anyway for sure, and given what happens in the second half surely with potential to be one of his best games as a right winger or even over his career in general. He's been very sharp with the ball, and incisive from his wing position in general, as well as putting his speed to good use of course, and has been controlling the ball very well and combining well I'd say too, and he's been close to providing good chances sometimes (he did provide a chance that led to a close effort, or his delivery was just about cleared etc). The other player to rival him for MOTM at this moment I would feel would be Ronald de Boer who himself is playing in not the role that was (eventually, although already by this time such as vs Bayern Munich as a great example from the previous season when he did play in a midfield role) his most noted one, as in this game he's at centre forward (with Bergkamp coming from just behind as it often was in those days, although as we've said Bergkamp did play as solo CF in some games himself). His touch has been very good too and he's shown sharp play himself, mainly coming to receive the ball rather than playing as a target man or something of course. If I try a score for every player on the pitch (so far for me it's an enjoyable game, with also Norway stringing some good moves together at times) I'll go with this: Netherlands - Van der Sar 7; Reiziger 6.75, Blind 7, F.De Boer 7.5, Numan 7.25; Seedorf 7.25, Witschge 6.5; Overmars 8.25, Bergkamp 7.25, Helder 6.75; R.De Boer 8.25 Norway - Grodas 6.25; Loken 6.5, Berg 6.75, E.Johnsen 6.25, Bjornebye 7; Mykland 7, Rekdal 6.25, Bohinen 7.5, Jakobsen 7.25; T-A.Flo 6.75, Fjortoft 6.75 Bergkamp has definitely had a few stand-out moments with skills or passes, mixed in with a few not so good moments. It's a bit the same for Bohinen for Norway maybe, but he generally got better after the early minutes I think, while Jakobsen started brightly but faded out a bit by half-time. Seedorf generally played pretty well and had a few promising moments, including some combination play with Bergkamp shortly before half-time, though Seedorf's heavy touch at the end brought the move to an end as there would be a decent chance of a goal otherwise. Maybe there is potential that I end up giving him a high to very high score, given what will happen in the second half still though. I am following the pattern of doing it 45 minutes at a time that I did in the past for some games, such as old World Cup or Champions League ones. The other game that I will begin to watch now though is this high scoring one between Liverpool and Manchester United from 1993/94 that I remember happening but I don't think I saw the whole game: https://footballia.net/matches/liverpool-fc-manchester-united-premier-league-1993-1994 Whether it'll be a good candidate as a match for some of the stars on show (or even some of the lesser known but high quality players) I wouldn't be sure but having started it for the Netherlands-Norway game I'll continue with deciding scores 45 minutes at a time I think. I might not get to the end of both games today necessarily, and it could be I'm also postponing the Van Persie videos and analysis about one player carrying a team to a title that you referred to on the other thread for another day (but probably only until tomorrow I think)! Maybe the reason is not a 'bad' one for you anyway, given what distracted me!
I have watched the first half of that one now too, and again as could be half-expected, it probably would be Nigel Clough I'd pick out so far ahead of everyone, in what was the major game of his Liverpool career. By half-time he'd have course scored his two goals to bring Liverpool back in the game but the 8/10 I'm awarding him to that point also reflects that he made a good start to the game, and mostly made good use of possession whenever he had it (the main 'bad moment' being when robbed by Ince to set a Manchester United counter attack going probably, unless including being booked for fouling Giggs). Other players who'd be deemed past their best, Barnes (although from the following season he started to do very well in a central midfield role) and Rush (whose touch seemed very good in the early stages, before United went ahead actually, particularly) are having good games for Liverpool too overall I'd say. For United Cantona and Giggs are playing up front together, and the promise/danger is clear, although the quality and effect of the game of each a bit sporadic too. The quality assist by Cantona is among a few quality moments though, and Giggs scores one goal very nicely while missing two arguably eassier chances at goal, but has some promising moments approaching half-time too. I'll go with this so far: Liverpool - Grobelaar 6; Jones 6.75, Wright 6.5, Ruddock 5.75, Dicks 6.25; McManaman 6.75, Redknapp 6.25, Clough 8, Barnes 7; Rush 7, Fowler 6 Man Utd - Schmeichel 7; Parker 6.25, Bruce 6.75, Pallister 6.5, Irwin 7.25; Kanchelskis 6.5, Keane 6.75, Ince 6.75, McClair 5.75; Cantona 7.75, Giggs 7.5
In the end I think I stick with 8.25 for both Overmars and Ronald de Boer. Especially Overmars played in general better in the first half I'd say, probably when he had the most energy, but I think he can 'save' his grade right at the end with his great solo goal, and he had assisted the 2nd goal with a square pass too of course just before. He did play some good passes in build up earlier the half too, but seemed less dangerous and impressive overall than he had in the 1st half and lost the ball a few times in comparison to that 1st half. R.De Boer did have another good half in general, and ended it in midfield in more of a 4-3-3 I would say, once Bergkamp had gone off. It was De Boer's pass that set Seedorf through for the first goal too obviously. Seedorf himself enhanced his performance overall during the second half I think, and played one very good crossfield pass to Overmars that maybe the winger might have made more use of in the first half I'm guessing (and he did play Overmars through before the 2nd goal too). From memory it might even be I'd decide that both R.De Boer and Overmars had better games in that game vs Bayern Munich from 94/95 (I did give my own grades for that too, and seem to think I did have Ronald at least with a higher one in the end), but still good examples of very good games by both I'd say in this one vs Norway. Without giving ratings to the final 3 subs who came on late in the game (even though one of them scored) I'll settle on this for the full match: Netherlands - Van der Sar 7; Reiziger 7, Blind 7.25, F.De Boer 7.5, Numan 7.5; Seedorf 7.5, Witschge 6.5 (Davids 6.25); Overmars 8.25, Bergkamp 7.25, Helder 7; R.De Boer 8.25 Norway - Grodas 6; Loken 6.5 (Haaland 6.5), Berg 6.75, E.Johnsen 6, Bjornebye 7; Mykland 7 (Leonhardsen 6), Rekdal 6.75, Bohinen 7.5, Jakobsen 6.75; T-A.Flo 7, Fjortoft 6.5 I maybe should have written Flo's name on the right of the midfield I think. I had been a bit unsure in the first half if that was basically where he was playing or if he'd been moving out there a lot. Mykland did already play infield a fair bit before half-time anyway I'd say.
I managed to complete an afternoon/evening of viewing by finishing the 2nd half of this one too now. I'm going to keep Clough on an 8 and I think given his general display and his two goals too a MOTM verdict seems reasonable anyway. His 2nd half wasn't much different to his first, except for missing the goals. As a Forest fan I'm probably not likely to suggest it was his best ever game, but it could well be his best as a central midfield player I guess anyway! I'll not add a rating for late-ish sub Bjornebye, even though he also did provide the assist for the equaliser. He came on for McManaman, to play on the left, and Fowler moved to the right (he'd already switched to the left, with Barnes moving permanently into a central role in support of Rush from at/near the start of the half). So for the full match I'll go with this, with Cantona nudged down a bit, although he had some good moments in the 2nd half too and was close to a headed goal and surely if he'd got that one in I'd not have moved his rating down. Maybe there were less goals in the second half because of the goalkeeping (there were a few very good saves at both ends): Liverpool - Grobelaar 6.5; Jones 7, Wright 6.75, Ruddock 6.5, Dicks 6.25; McManaman 6.5, Redknapp 6.5, Clough 8, Barnes 7; Rush 6.75, Fowler 6 Man Utd - Schmeichel 7.5; Parker 6.5, Bruce 7, Pallister 6.5, Irwin 7.25; Kanchelskis 6.5, Keane 7, Ince 6.5, McClair 6; Cantona 7.5, Giggs 7.5
Thanks, nice to read this Bratseth had just stopped playing in this season I see (I don't know this by hard ofc).
Yeah, I suppose World Cup 1994 was both his International swansong in effect, and his International debut at a major tournament! When he was playing Berg was normally/always at right back I think, while in this game he was in the centre as part of a flat back 4. He made some very good interventions defensively actually (notably once in the first half when Ronald de Boer took the ball very nicely in the penalty area and he just got a touch on the ball to prevent De Boer having the chance on goal for what could have been a great goal in Bergkamp-esque style probably; also another time in the second half where his interception was crucial I remember...not to the result of course in the end though!). I didn't give him a higher score only because he played too many long balls, mostly not leading to much, but I know that the coach Olsen did tend to like direct balls from the back so he could have been under instruction (even if sometimes a midfielder did take the ball down in his own half at least, and certainly like I said Norway did string a few good moves together of their own in the Dutch half of the pitch).
You as English reader might also like the 'Reconsidered' series. Some takes can be quite harsh (Zidane, and RvN is another black sheep with some unfair criticism; I can elaborate on both) but it's good that like you it's pointed out players are not perfect in their control. For example the 2009 Clasico: "There’s also a brilliant reverse pass to Messi midway through the first half, that should have created a one-on-one but for Messi’s poor touch."
Yeah, I wouldn't say it's a myth that some players (generally) have a great touch, or on occasions show 'sublime' control (first touch and/or consecutive touches), but undoubtedly bad touches and mis-controls can happen to anyone. I remember vaguely there was a Youtube video with a misleading title about a 'great' Cruyff moment (or showing how great he was?) from World Cup 1974 which was actually the ball bouncing off his leg and going out of play or something I think! Maybe vs Uruguay. But anyone watching all his play and touches in the whole tournament realises what a great player he was and how good his control could be and normally was, including when dribbling etc. Pele missed an open goal at the start of his game vs Czechoslovakia in 1970 'inexplicably' but proceeded to play great for the rest of the game. To mention a player in the game I watched yesterday, Bohinen could show great ball skills (maybe you remember some Forest vs Leicester highlights I showed you once that had some good examples of it), but sometimes he did mis-control and as one example I remember he gave an assist to Woan vs Sheffeld Wednesday, but only after initially the ball had come off his shin (not as intended at all, but happened to fall in place to make a pass that time). Sometimes a player's touch can be pretty good (by his and/or general standards) and still he doesn't have a good game - from the other game I watched yesterday I'd say Fowler had a game like that actually, as he missed a couple of good chances (not really by mis-control or mis-cuing it) and generally things didn't often come off for him ultimately, but his first touches weren't bad at all.
There was a moment where Bergkamp probably had a half chance after one impressive long pass from Frank de Boer too, and didn't even take a bad touch really, but I think the commentator thought he was capable of an even better one so was saying "ahhh, Dennis" or something I think (the commentary was in Dutch of course), considering that potentially he'd have had a chance if his touch was the best he was capable of (in terms of how tight it was and how close it would drop for him - as it was I think a defender managed to get to it if I remember correctly). That moment with Ronald de Boer and Berg showed that sometimes a great touch/idea can still be thwarted anyway by sharp defending sometimes, in potential goal scoring areas.
Maybe I watched it in one way or another, or saw it in highlights probably, but can't remember. This qualification campaign is best known for three matches: the Ireland play-off game (often seen as one of Kluivert his marquee games); the Belarus match (despite a deserved red card for preventing a scoring chance, they won by a 'Mulder junior' goal who played with #14, which is pretty much the only thing he's remembered for) and the loss against Czech Republic. That 3-1 away loss was the last game where De Goeij had a claim for being the #1 goalkeeper, and the referee was truly terrible (Helmut Krug). They came 0-1 ahead but then there was a weak phase of 10-15 minutes where three goals were leaked. Patrik Berger was very good in this game I thought. Czech Republic reached the euro 1996 final of course. In that they had a lucky/wrong penalty but at the same time Sammer escaped a red card (at least a yellow) in the very same scene. Who knows what happens if the opponent wasn't allowed to ship in fresh legs for the final, and UEFA had said managing suspensions, injuries and fatigue is part of the competition... (had it been the other way around, no way this happens). Maybe it is that a week later this month some of these players played Real Madrid off the park in the Bernabeu (0-2, but with two clear goals disallowed and a clear ball over the line not given; referee was the same Krug, and he appeared again for the 2001 Ireland play-off match with those crunching tackles on e.g. Overmars), followed by them winning the Intercontinental Cup in the next match. I see Feyenoord a week earlier had beaten Everton in Europe (eventually making the semis and shame they didn't win). So no, I don't remember really. In this last season before Bosman (and the further actions by UEFA after the december 1995 verdict) club football was fairly strong I think. If all those goals had been given - which is not open for discussion - then this would have been the largest European home loss for Real Madrid (the 1-4 win in 2019 is that now in the books). The football in 1995 was nice, but unfortunately the year is now equally or better known among the general population for what happened in Bosnia...
Yeah, in terms of the Ajax team, there was quite a significant overlap indeed with the Dutch line-up vs Norway (and in general around that time), and obviously Seedorf recently and Bergkamp a few years earlier had also been Ajax players.