The best games of the best players

Gazzetta give a 9 to Maradona Vs England and Vs Belgium in 1986

 

These are the Gazzetta ratings for Maradona 1986 World Cup

 

That's interesting. I definitely feel like I'd be inclined towards swapping the South Korea and Bulgaria performances with the Italy and Uruguay ones if anything, although I suppose they could take account of level of opposition (and therefore difficulty of the game) and put big emphasis on that (which I'd do too in certain circumstances if it seemed like a player didn't really need to play very well to be effective in some games, but in these cases it doesn't seem that way to me really - from when I reviewed the video footage I recall certainly feeling his Korea/Bulgaria performances were better than the other 2 quality wise).

Maybe by my own way of looking at it, I'd not go as low as 6.5 for the Uruguay or Italy games, but the way Italians tend to rate games maybe I would. Likewise I could think I could go 8.5 for the South Korea and Bulgaria games perhaps, but by Italian standards maybe not.

 

This is the Maradona game when he got 10 from La Stampa

 

@PDG1978

Okay I looked at this yesterday and today (first half yesterday, second half today) and it's certainly worthy of a 9 and a 10 is also feasible but a matter of taste and context.

https://footballia.net/matches/leeds-united-deportivo-de-la-coruna

Since it was and is Leeds best ever result in the Champions League (and the best in Europe since the mid-70s) against the reigning Spanish champions (#1 ranking in UEFA coefficients) there is something to be said about that too. Deportivo finished runners-up in the league in 2001 and 2002.

Leeds United kept it compact and tight, and all three goals came from a set piece situation. Ian Harte - who was a very good passer and distributor (for example 11:00 in the video time) - created all three goals.

Rio Ferdinand was on paper the captain, played clean, had a few good interceptions and won pretty much every duel. He had two good runs too although in one of them he over-committed himself and lost the ball (32:00 in the video timer). If you want to be critical some other moments of arguable positioning can be spotted too (11:30 - it was flagged for offside but it clearly wasn't). He scored the 3-0 from a corner.

Deportivo had only one shot on target in the whole match (in the 2nd half by Makaay - some sporadic pieces of combination play by him, such as 48:00) and were really cancelled by the Leeds organization, who won the physical battles/duels and made it difficult to play through. Deportivo probably missed some starters (Victor, Mauro Silva) and would say the 7 for Djaliminha is generous.

Djalminha had some showboating yes, but produced nothing of substance and had some really shocking passes too (and of course was 'lazy' in possession and without ball). The 8 for Emerson I can understand (do not disagree necessarily) because he could match them physically and was involved in the few dangerous moments, however his 'vision' is sorely sub-par, not looking beyond the nearest station.

Makaay struggled indeed (though I noticed that, like RvN, his overall game was much better than remembered; good ball carrier too at that phase of his career, and two instances of a neat distribution with the outside of the boot) and this only adds to the pedigree of Ferdinand and co since Makaay was one of the more prolific strikers at continental level of his generation (more goals and a better ratio than a Hernan Crespo for example - as usual this fails to register in certain circles). 29 Champions League goals (in 61 games) is surpassed by only six players of that era, all in many more games and for better teams. Don Balon placed him as often in their seasonal XI as the great Ronaldo! (somehow...). Diego Tristan with his 21 goals in 61 continental games (15 in 43 in CL) not too bad too.

Overall a 9 looks fair and a 10 is a matter of taste. It certainly wasn't completely flawless, but the context of Leeds best ever result and the quality of the opponent gives it a bump. Ian Harte also really good with the ball, but he didn't have a direct opponent and he wasn't tested a lot defensively. From open play Leeds created two chances I think.

 

As one last thing, yet (because this would be 'after the dinner' tomorrow), there is some attention today for the George Best game of 1976.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/sport/de-avond-dat-george-best-beter-was-dan-johan-cruijff-wordt-43-jaar-later-herleefd-in-rotterdam~bcf9e889

https://nos.nl/artikel/2305467-1976-briljante-en-baldadige-best-overtroeft-cruijff-in-de-kuip.html

It is doubted whether Best tunneling Cruijff actually happened, but it did happen he nutmegged players more than five times in the match - that is established truth.

There is also a consensus by the involved people Best was the most sparkling player on the pitch that day, against one of the best teams in Europe at the time (the return match in 1977).


(unfortunately the 6 minutes version - saw it on tv in the morning - cannot be seen abroad - it shows Best helping to create a goal and making another big chance, it shows Cruijff scoring the 2-1 and also involved for another big chance - alternative one minute version)


Also came across this when re-checking wikipedia (and the ESM team selection):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bas_Dost#VfL_Wolfsburg


(tip: switch off commentary)

It shows Son Hueng-min scoring a hat-trick 'before the fame' and also De Bruyne (widely recognized as one of the three or five best players in the league season) setting up some goals before his fame started to hit another level.

 

he is only 21 years old (the group stages of the 2006/07 champions league)
He literally dribbled past (in a conventional opta sense)every single outfield player on the pitch.

Ronaldo always seeked to impress against porto and benfica (his 'rivals' from Portugal)


Literally all that is missing is one iconic goal or one defence splitting pass and this would've unanimously gone down as one of the all time great performances

You give him the ball anywhere(even 60+ yards from goal) and he is a threat.
I never seen a thing like it since R9 in his pomp
The directness,on the ball speed, agility, close control,strength,stamina etc
a truly remarkable athlete

 

The true man of the match:

Gini had a stormer today. Had a 97% passing accuracy today (only other player with 80+ was Fabinho on 83%).

Lost possession only 4 times the whole match. Only players lower were Ox, Jesus and Gomez who played just 33 minutes between them.

A beacon of calm in a chaotic match. https://t.co/dAfEd6HjCH

— Stephen Drennan (@babuyagu) November 10, 2019

 

While watching the match I kept thinking Gini was the best player on the pitch, and was happy when the commentators mentioned it towards the end of the match.
Bernardo Silva also showing up vs Liverpool as usual.

 

There were a few good performers in the match but for me he stood out yes. It's a positive thing that when matches turn chaotic or sloppy (like the CL final) he keeps it tidy and picks the right colors. P.S. on twitter I saw some others making that 'Wijnaldum is a Seedorf clone' comment.

Bernardo Silva the best Man City player, I agree.

De Bruyne and Aguero dissapointed me a bit but of course Liverpool's tactics made it that way and KDB is at his best when he comes from slightly deeper (imho) and maybe a little bit more from the sides. Sterling also good but TAA is of course a rather weak one vs one defender (as we have seen before).

I also liked this comment by the English commentator: "Van Dijk can't be at multiple places, but the place he chooses to be in is mostly the right place." or as a variant "He can only be at one place at a time and he chooses the best place to be at".

 

What were your impressions of the Juventus match? Didn't see everything of course (didn't see Bayern vs Dortmund for example) but watched this as well. Ronaldo getting subbed out prematurely around the 55th minute was a surprising moment though later heard it happened before this season.

SergiXaviniesta/status/1193646695692812299

https://it.eurosport.com/calcio/ser...op.-finalmente-de-ligt_sto7533322/story.shtml

https://www.tuttosport.com/news/cal.../juve-milan_le_pagelle_szczesny_alza_il_muro/

 

Juve never really got going and I think Milan have to be credited for that. They nullified Pjanic which seems like half the job for a Sarri team. Then you have Bernadeschi and Matuidi who don't contribute much on the ball. Milan clearly won the midfield battle

Ronaldo seems to have some problem, although he was passed fit to play and yes this is the 2nd match in a row where Sarri subs him and Juve go on to look more dynamic upfront. It's very interesting how that will play out.

 

I saw it much the same way. Gini showing high IQ and good technique to dribble away from crowded areas though the commentators preferred to talk about his industry. His IQ and technique are impressive.
Bernardo for sure the best of the City bunch and Sterling really put pressure on TAA especially in the 2nd half, he just drove at him until Klopp had to do something about it. Angelino was a pleasant surprise. Another surprise was why Pep kept KDB so high up for so long.

 

To me it was obvious we missed him yesterday against Northern Ireland (we missed some other players like Depay too, to be fair).

In the main I think he's an underappreciated player - there was very little talk yesterday about him not playing, only Van Hooijdonk made a remark on that he's important, even against a rugged team as Northern Ireland.

Then I think of various things like the four non-penalty goals in one Premier League game (as attacking midfielder; it is an EPL record for a midfielder), or that he scored and beat Klopp's team when he was at Newcastle. His team-mates at Liverpool voted him as one of the captains (received the 2nd most votes, behind VvD) and that shows something I guess.

That being said, finishing 2nd in the qualification group is not bad at all. It most likely means we get Ukraine from pot 1 (2nd option is Belgium - if Ukraine loses against Serbia in their final match) and play eventual knock-out games in London or Munich instead of Baku and Boedapest. It seems the staff and players were aware of it too and played for a 0-0 in the second half (Northern Ireland didn't play to win anyway). There wasn't really the urge to score goals.

 

Gianluca Pagluica: Serie A 1990-91 Inter Milano vs Sampdoria 0-2 at the San Siro

Gazzetta dello Sport 9/10 rating
Corriere dello Sport 8,5/10
Tuttosport 8/10
GS 8/10

Pagluica made at least 11 key saves after being bombarded from Klinsmann, Matthaus, Berti, Serena... saved a crucial penalty from Matthaus when the score was 1-0 in favor of his side, in what was one of the most impressive goalkeeping displays in Serie A in the season and perhaps in the decade. Furthermore, it arrived against one of the best Inter sides of the era, which catapulted Sampdoria to an unprecedented Scudetto title with few rounds remaining.

 

Here it can be checked or verified:



Or the brief highlights:

 

I don't know if it's confirmation bias lol but I'm starting to see the Seedorf in him, a budget Seedorf indeed. Also looking for the Manchester United - AC Milan (2005) matches in full. It's almost 15 years ago now but I always seem to remember Seedorf being the standout midfielder in that tie (Scholes, Keane, Pirlo, Kaka, Rui Costa would have all been on the pitch for majority of the tie). Would love to watch both matches again but I remember being so impressed by Seedorf and the feeling of control he brought to the match at Old Trafford.
His 2007 performance against United, playing slightly further forward gets more coverage I guess but my initial impression was that his 2005 performances were both more complete.

On the topic of Seedorf (and Wijnaldum by extension), I try to wonder how many midfielders brought such a high technical level, combined with such athleticism and still be nicknamed The Professor without exaggeration.

 

The first I think of is Tigana although I'm not sure whether he had the same knack for scoring/creating (important) goals during the apex of his career.

It's similar in the way he was more prolific before he came in his 'winning window' but it decreased to such a level he had hardly any goals at all (only 1 continental goal, one goal for France).

I do think he was a 'smart' player in the way he could also play as defender very well (against the Careca-Maradona duo for example), he was technically good and had sense for position (better than Vieira, some have said). He had the level of defensive skills to merit the comparison.





Possibly there are more players like that, but thought of him because of the 1980s team thread (and me thinking on this).

The main limitation of the comparison is the creative part (in the bigger games especially) and also Tigana was more of a long distance runner than a protector/shield of the ball.

 

To name a South American player, albeit more defensive and restricted than I had in mind, Esteban Cambiasso. He was a more prolific player than Tigana, also against the bigger teams and advanced stages (though not as much as the above two). Give him a fraction of Tigana's dynamism and you're getting close. His body frame is comparable though.

Real Madrid expected him to do what Makelele did, while still creating a dozen goals per season, but that was too much to ask.

 

Mario Coluna possibly, with the combination @Edhardy mentions.

https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5475

This might be inflated, but he was defensively 'better' as for example Didi or Charlton, let alone Rivera.

 

@PuckVanHeel Jean Tigana certainly fits, to an extent or a lesser scale than Seedorf. I haven't watched much of Coluna but a quick look at pes stats and his career stats (his goals, relative to his position) and he does seem the part. I wouldn't know about his footballing IQ though. Cambiasso (Mancini era) was at a very high level! He can definitely be among those that are complete in that sense.

 

[Videos]

The ball had to run in that French team. He had to give it as soon as possible to Platini (or another player ofc, but that's what he explained some years ago : in comparision to Zidane who sometimes did pauses/ took time on the ball/ protected it, Platini asked for the ball was always running and Tigana yes, had the same philosophy. To be read between the lines/ almost pronunced : he would have not like to play with a Zidane. It's different approaches of the #10 role and different team formats btw, I'd add).

Back to the comparison with Seedorf, also, Tigana played in a 4-2-2-2, it's different. He had more offensive responsabilities (in the last offensive movement) and goals playing for Lyon. Still, he has 10 assists in 52 caps including two at the World Cup (North. Ireland, Poland '82) and most of all 3 at the Euro 84 (Belgium, Portugal, Spain). His only goal is at the World Cup too, against Hungary.
Other noticeable assists in NT are against Ireland and Belgium on the road to the Mundial 82 (as a player of Lyon and with France playing in a 4-3-3 still (so with one less offensive player clearly placed ahead of him).

He has not played in the CL era too, ofc, where Seedorf has multiplicated his numbers of assist during a while, playing like/ as the number 10 of Milan I think.

 

Well the thing is Tigana had the physical abilities but didn't go 100 miles per hour all the time. He didn't go in his gazelle stride all the time and that is part of why he has a comparable profile. He had also a sense for position, especially for his time. Furthermore, he has a clean disciplinary record and didn't rely on 'big tackles'.

Not without coincidence Cruijff called him one of his favorite players in 1984, and there is also a link to Seedorf.

I can see what you mean with this was still a time (1980s) where midfielders ran from one way to the other all the time, but Tigana was not super extreme in this without being less effective.

Yes, agreed, and that's what I meant above. He was more prolific before he reached the years of his fame.

Of course he was great at euro 1984 with France Football rating him the best of all players in the tournament, and I guess his game against Portugal is among the best in his career (to keep a connection with the thread).

I don't fully agree with this suggestion.

Most people would say the 'number 10' of Milan was Rui Costa and later Kaka. Rui Costa was more midfielder, the other more a counter-attacking forward, but those were the number 10.

Tigana has 1 goal in 47 continental games (Lech Poznan in 1990), and 1 goal in 52 national team games (Hungary in 1986).

What you can say - here is the nuance I agree with - is Tigana at euro 1984 was generally the 5th most advanced player of his team (behind two forwards, behind Platini, behind Giresse). For Bordeaux he was the 4th most advanced I think.

Seedorf was generally the 4th most advanced player of his team (2nd take) although he had big achievements in more advanced positions (around 2007 he had matches as the 3rd most advanced player of his team, behind Inzaghi and/or Gilardino and behind Kaka) and also played at times in more restrained positions. L'Equipe positioned him as defensive midfielder in their all-time European Cup team and that is not widely off the mark (he did play there in games of importance). At the same time he had also the final ball and creativity to play in more advanced roles, but for example the good long ball assist to Raul in the 1998 Intercontinental Cup was really from a 'restricted' role that allowed Redondo, Savio and Hierro (playing as midfielder) to go forward. I see now L'Equipe in their points based system of 2016 had him as the 2nd best midfielder in European Cup history, ahead of Xavi, Iniesta, Pirlo etc. (I'd have him as candidate for #10 all-time of his country)

@Edhardy asked the question which all-time greats had a comparable profile, and Tigana was the first I thought of. Indeed, the comparison becomes a better fit when one accounts for that Tigana played a notch deeper, relative to his team mates.

N.B. hat-trick by Gini today (while wearing the armband for the first time).

 

Seedorf was the #10 behind two strikers at Milan at one point. Kaka being part of the front-2 the most often. Same with another one, once he left to Real.
Since 2007-2008 for sure. Not always but very often.

In the link you provided that shows a 2003-2007 ACM team, Crespo is on the default formation wich is a big mistake since he stood here a very little time and was globally not even a starter + rarely played alongside Sheva let alone alongside Sheva + Kaka.
in the other link there's Seedorf as the #10 behind two st's btw, in the cl final 07.

so that's what I said : at one point Seedorf was the "3rd guy". I remember well and it's not just a couple of games between the serie a and the cl. it was quite often from 2007-08 to 2011. During Ronaldinho's stint, it depended and after verification having both atthe same time was rare in the most difficult games. When both played together Ronnie could be part of a front-3 or #10 thus Seedorf was the 4th guy or part of a front-2 thus Seedorf was the 3rd guy. All in all, from 2007-08 to 2011, Seedorf was often the 3rd guy, as he was growing old too (so we saw more of his lability to make the last passes and take shots). The other midfielders were generally Pirlo, Gattuso/ Flamini and Ambrosini and he was well at the top of this quator even though he did not become totally unable to provide some defensive work. But the balance between his offensive and defensive work was inverted for sure (probably that he had a perfect balance 50/50 at some point, a bit earlier though, I don't know but anyway you see what I mean his offensive contribution became the most important thing at one point). As LM/ LAM and as the midfielder who's the most in contact with the 2 st's, taking a more central position occasionally from his initial position but making the plays from this left portion of the pitch the most often.
I thought that it was something that made an impression and was remembered as a turn in his playing style or most of all, about how he was used at one point tbh and I did not think to be categorically contradicted on this one.

In 2009-2010, he's the best assist man of Milan in the CL I see with 3. In 2010-2011 also, joint with Robinho with 2. In 2007-2008 it is Pirlo with 4 but anyway, let's forget about the numbers because it's not the point, Seedorf was the one who built plays behind the strikers. Pirlo too but more like a regista in his zone + the long passes from this same zone whilst as for Seedorf it was more by progressing ball at the feet in the left/ centre left channel + the passes or crosses.


As a side note, Milan played the UEFA Cup in 2008-2009 and I could not find the stats of assists but as already said anyway, as it's not really th epoint or the evidence for anything.... Transfermakt says he has 1 assist in this campaign... btw I see now he played almost all these games as AM or LM... + even this, AM in a christmas three for example just by clicking on one game randomly : https://www.transfermarkt.fr/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/933661 so this is well what I thought or I'm not far off anyway. Well, I think I remember well.