The Art of VAR - Other Teams Thread[R]

Discussion in 'Real Madrid' started by Eddie, Apr 20, 2019.

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  1. Dr. MvN

    Dr. MvN Member

    Real Madrid
    United States
    Oct 22, 2018
    Estados Unidos
    Well, Sevilla will be nine points ahead of Villarreal for the last CL spot after today barring a meltdown in the last 10 minutes against Mallorca. Villarreal play Sociedad tomorrow; if they don't win that game, the CL is gone for them for good and they would be pretty much a lock for an EL spot (6-7 points clear of Athletic for 7th place with two games to play...in fact, a draw would clinch a direct EL spot), so I guess that's what's to root for tomorrow, because that would, theoretically, lessen the urgency for Villarreal in that game. Maybe it won't matter at all, but every little bit (perceived or otherwise) would help.
     
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  2. Eddie

    Eddie Member+

    Oct 19, 2005
    Club:
    Real Madrid
  3. madridismo

    madridismo Member+

    Feb 28, 2007
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Definitely, especially given that Leganes are probably going to be 3 pts from salvation on the last day when we play them. Fking weak ass Parejo missed a penalty against them today. Guy seems to go out of his way to make life difficult for us. Ffs!!!
     
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  4. hala_madrid722

    hala_madrid722 Member+

    Jan 10, 2013
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Most if not all major team sports have gone in the same direction.

    The rules have made it to favor more offense, less defense & less brutality. It’s a natural progression. Athletes now may have better diet, nutrition, & stamina. That does not mean players now are more talented though. Some may be, some may not be.

    I feel like there are less legendary players now than there use to be, and that’s not just nostalgia speaking either.

    The idea that athletes now have to be better than players from 10, 20 , 30 years ago is ludicrous. First of all evolution does not work that fast, you literally have to be dumb to think that.

    In golf there is no one close to Woods at his peak. Basketball I don’t think I even have to say it, no one even close to Jordan especially now. I might be biased but for me Barry Bonds is the best baseball player ever even with the cheating, no one makes you scared like he did nowadays not even close.

    Soccer/Futbol - okay we prolly seeing the 2 best players ever in Ronaldo Messi. So it just shows how all this is an imperfect science. I’ll tell ya what though right now Vinicius might be the most exciting teenage Brazilian in the world, no disrespect to Vini but 20 years ago we had Brazilians like Ronaldo 9 & Ronaldinho running around, the quality of this generation players for Brazil is so much lower.

    Health, nutrition, lifestyles etc certainly have had big affects on sports. And sports are definitely softer now than they used to be in the 70’s, 80’s, 90’s - that’s a good & bad thing. But it’s a thing and can’t be debated.
     
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  5. J-Mezzy

    J-Mezzy Member+

    Oct 14, 2013
    Orlando
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia

    This may be the best post you've ever made
     
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  6. hala_madrid722

    hala_madrid722 Member+

    Jan 10, 2013
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    lol thanks

    Its a subject I’ve definitely put thought into over the past few years
     
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  7. Tribune

    Tribune Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    I did not want to engage in this because it seemed off-topic, but since you guys are going at it, I would like to make some points and address one question to 4x4.

    First of all, I have one observation to make about Umar's statement. I would say that the notion of "cars or computers are better over time" is a bit simplistic. Better in what way?
    I would not make such a sweeping generalization because linear improvement, in any field, is impossible. Improvement is a curve, because, when a technological breakthrough is achieved, a fast pace of improvement takes place at first and it will start slowing down once physical limits are reached.
    I will explain by an example: the first seven decades of the last century saw massive improvements in aircraft technology over the basic parameters of flight: speed, range, altitude. But all the records in this area date from the 60s and the 70s. The last 5 decades saw a quantum improvement in computer technology, which had applications in many other fields, but planes today are not flying faster, higher or farther (with no refueling) because there are physical barriers which are very difficult to overcome.
    Let's take Umar's own examples: a car from 2020 is better than one in the past? In the sense that it has a lot of electronic devices incorporated. But a car from today is not faster than one from 1970-1980. Again, there are physical limits. Safety issues aside, a car cannot go past a certain speed limits because of friction (which would damage your wheels and car components) and lift (and enough high speeds, depending on the car's weight and shape, it would roll over).
    Even computers, which have known the most improvements in last decades, cannot improve in all aspect at the same rate. Here is an example, in 2000, a typical PC hard drive was 10-80 GB; in 2010, a typical PC hard drive was 500 GB-4 TB hard drive. Fast forward to 2020, and a typical PC is still 500GB-4 TB. That happened because the physical limits of how much you can miniaturize a HDD have been reached.

    Now, the question I have for 4x4: what exactly makes him so sure that players today are so much better than those of the past? Is there any reasoned foundation for such assertions (that Messi&Co will "destroy past defenders etc"). I want to make something clear: I am not seeking an argument/debate but information. If it's based just on 4x4 visual perception, then let's agree to disagree. But, if it is not, I would like to hear his reasons.

    Personally, I am quite skeptical of such claims for several reasons.

    First of all, as I pointed out above, linear improvement is impossible. In biological bodies, even more so. A human body can't improve its performance forever: at one point, even taking the matter theoretically, it would reach negative records. But, seriously, a human would never outrun a cheetah, nor wrestle a bear, no matter how hard it trains.

    I tried to research the matter and I have found several articles on the issue:

    https://theconversation.com/what-is-the-absolute-limit-for-human-athletes-heres-the-science-63749

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0001552

    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.464.862&rep=rep1&type=pdf

    I shall quote the most relevant parts:

    First article (published in 2016)

    "Over the last 100 years, large improvements have been made in the javelin and shot put, for example, while much smaller gains have been made in short-distance races, such as the 100, 200 and 400 metres. In 1909, for example, the men’s shot put record was 15.54 metres; the current record, set in 1990, is 23.12 metres. This means that we had an increase of almost 50% in throwing distance in just over 80 years. By contrast, the improvement we have seen in the men’s 100 metres over the last century is a relatively small 8%"

    "The performance of sprint athletes mostly depends on two variables: reaction time and fast muscle fibres. In endurance athletes, meanwhile, peak performance is regulated by slow muscle fibres, and by aerobic capacity. The latter can substantially be increased by either regular training or manipulation (blood doping, for example). Conversely, reaction time, which is strongly dependent on the nervous system, has a limited margin of improvement when compared with muscular power and aerobic capacity. Indeed, the nervous system cannot increase the speed of transmission of an eletric impulse, therefore there is little potential to improve reaction time through training. Here, genetics is key."

    "Equally, jumping events are limited by tendon stress limits, which cannot be overcome past a certain natural limit and this might explain why the curve of improvement for these specialities is now almost flat."

    "If these considerations are true, then limits will be approached, and a point will be reached, perhaps soon, when performance levels become essentially static, with only the occasional, once-every-generation “super-athlete” able to set new records. Indeed, this situation may have already been reached in some events, such as the long jump and short distance runs, as progression of world records in these events has nearly stopped or has substantially slowed."

    "Although world records initially progressed according to a linear model in the Olympic disciplines of track and field athletics, in most instances the progression curve has flattened out over the past 20 years (for example, in running and jumping), while in some sports (for example, shot put) no improvement has been recorded since the mid-1990s. Hence, if the present conditions prevail for the next 20 years, this will support the hypothesis that most of the male world records will probably no longer be substantially improved"


    Second article (published in 2008).

    "Starting at 75% of their estimated asymptotic values in 1896, WR have now reached 99%, and, present conditions prevailing, half of all WR will not be improved by more than 0,05% in 2027. Our model, which may be used to compare future athletic performances or assess the impact of international antidoping policies, forecasts that human species' physiological frontiers will be reached in one generation.

    "
    During an initial phase of rapid improvement, interrupted by two major events (Fig. S1), WR progression rate may have been described by a linear model. With a 40 years hindsight on the WR rate decline (Fig. 2), debate on the limits now clearly emerges. As expected from biology, accurately fitted curves (high r2 values) now refute the linear model. In all measurable Olympic contests from five different disciplines, involving either aerobic (10000 m skating) or anaerobic (weight lifting) metabolic pathways, leg muscles mainly (cycling) or all muscles (decathlon), lasting seconds (shots) or hours (50 km walk), either in men or women, small (Fly weight) or tall athletes (100 m free style), individual or collective events (relays), all progression curves follow the same pattern, supporting the universality of the model.

    "In fact recent data show no progression of the 10 best performers in the last 20 years for the 100 m track women or men high jump [27] suggesting these WR may not be challenged anymore, especially when anti-doping agencies increase their actions and penalties. This is also observed when comparing the sprint events in running, swimming and speed skating over the second half of the XXth century"

    "In summary, an epidemiological analysis of sport performances demonstrates that WR progression follows a piecewise exponential decaying pattern, altered by historical events. Results point out that in 2007, WR have reached 99% of their asymptotic value. Present conditions prevailing for the next 20 years, half of all WR won't be improved by more than 0.05%. As compared to the positivism triumphing at the time Coubertin inspired Olympic renewal, the present analysis emphasizes the ineluctable rarefaction of the quantifiable proofs of human physiological progression."

    Third article (published in 2005).

    "Examination of the logistic curves’ beta values b and centered year for male runners at each distance demonstrates the period of greatest gain (acceleration) in world record performances occurred from the late 1940s to the mid-1960s. This period coincides with a shift in attitudes to a more professional approach to training and competition as evidenced by the introduction of professional coaches and the use of coaching and sport science (5). In addition, the globalization of sport during this period resulted in an increased participation and the inclusion of a number of the key running nations, that is, middle Africans."

    All three articles conclude the same thing: that during the 90s the performance improvement in most individual sports has pretty much flattened out.

    People here have referred to players in the 80s and 90s (not in the time of Billy Meredith, by the way) as scrubs, so on what basis do they assume that football made a quantum leap between 1985 and 2005? Heck, some people spoke derogatorily even of Mario Basler, a player who was in his prime when Xavi was starting his career, in the late 90s!
    Why on Earth do some people act as if Maradona played during during the time of Columbus and Pele during the Roman empire?
    Human technology in the 80s was sufficiently advanced to perform heart transplants and in the 60s to send men on the Moon or develop planes like the Jumbo Jet which still flies and is produced TODAY!

    Soccer began in the second half of the nineteenth century, it turned gradually professional during the first half of the 20th century and since then we had no less than five generations of fully professional players. Soccer had already become a millionaire's sports in the early 70s: Cruyff transfered in 1973 for 922,000$, which in today's money is around 11 millions $ - and that was for a single player. Yet somehow it was some amateur stuff full of drunkards and chainsmokers?

    With all due respect, I would call that slander. Yes, there was the odd case of players who had a disorganized lifestyle, the most notorious being Garrincha and Best. The current generation had Ronaldinho and Robinho who did the same thing and all fours pissed away their careers (Best, Dinho and Robinho faster, Garrincha somehow lucked out until he was 29).
    Whether this was an exception or something common, I have documentary evidence. In 1968, my NT went to Brazil for a tour of friendly matches with Brazilian clubs. One journalist who accompanied the team wrote his impressions in a book published in 1969, called "Pele, Brazil, Football and Samba". He had the chance to interview at length Pele, Tostao, Garrincha and Djalma Santos and visited the facilities of Brazilian clubs. The issue of "drinking/smoking" came up when discussing Djalma Santos' longevity (he was 39 at that time). Djalma refuted it categorically, so the idea that past players were a bunch of irresponsible morons all and one is false.

    The second reason why I am skeptical about claims of "how superior modern players are" is related to the argument "Messi&Co built on the accomplishments of past players". Actually, no, he did not. I fundamentally disagree with this assertion: Messi cannot "build" on anything because sporting ability is not transmissible from individual to individual like scientific know-how and technology. Each player starts from scratch. Training methods are transmissible, but now matter how good the training, it still depends on the individual being trained: you can train a donkey until it falls flat, it will never become a purebred race horse.

    As an aside, I would like to know what kind of irreplaceable uber-technology do modern players possess that they train so much better? For developing technical skills, it all comes down to practicing with a ball until exhaustion. Either you are doing it with the footbonaut (a device which fire balls at you which you have to trap and pass back, designed in 2012) or the old fashioned way, by having a teammate do that, is that much of a difference (except being more convenient).

    My two cents.
     
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  8. sneakking

    sneakking Member+

    Sep 11, 2009
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  9. Digital

    Digital Member+

    Dec 10, 2012
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Simple , and you are correct, this isn’t just nostalgia , I say again, despite all the longevity that Messi has I’d rather watch Brazilian Ronaldo when he was at his peak play football a hundred times before I’d watch Messi even once

    I mean , I’m sure he has a great diet , is stronger , faster, more stamina, might have a longer career, the epitome of the modern footballer playing the supposed much better modern game, but, instead of Henderson , I’d much rather watch .............. Zizou from 20 years ago
     
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  10. Eddie

    Eddie Member+

    Oct 19, 2005
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    More like $10 bud.
     
  11. hector_br

    hector_br Member+

    Feb 13, 2007
    All I can say about the subject being discussed is that Rapinoe is a toxic attention hole and Pogba should deliver his messages through means other than his hair.
     
  12. YOUNGSTARS87

    YOUNGSTARS87 Yellow C@rd Bandit

    Dec 21, 2005
    Pogba can do whatever he likes. You despises his message anyways so he definitely doesn't need to take any advice from you.

    In fact you can tell how effective Pogba is by how much it bothers you.
     
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  13. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I am assuming when you say peak R9, you mean pre-injury right ? Quick question, did you have a chance to watch him play back then ?
     
  14. Umar

    Umar Member+

    Sep 13, 2005
    One step ahead
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Palestine
    I am really disappointed in your unethical behaviour with this click bait. I spent three hours reading your links and there was not a single thing about bears or cheetahs in any of it.
     
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  15. Chinky24

    Chinky24 Member+

    Real Madrid
    Dec 26, 2004
    Nashville
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    This thread has really become a Master’s level thesis argument. Jesus I was just looking for shitty bets and a chance to bash Chelsea and here we are examining asymptotic peak performances of athletics over a five decade period. Wow!
     
  16. MaxY

    MaxY Member+

    May 24, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    1. Fck Rapinoe and other toxic attention *cough*
    2. Pogba doesn't need to do shit. He can get whichever haircut he wants, stop being so obsessed
    3. Game being full of brutality doesn't make it more manly, just plain stupid. They're footballers, not UFC fighters
     
  17. natenate101

    natenate101 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 16, 2006
    California, US
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seeing certain people here hate on Rapinoe makes me like her even more.
     
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  18. 4x4s

    4x4s Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 26, 2006
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Casemiro is arguably the best in his field in world football.

    What I think people don't understand about Brazil and the impact open borders and youth signings have had on football is that the individual style of football is being watered down and clubs around the world produce players that provide solutions.

    There is no use for tricky fainty players that record bad numbers but bring moments of magic anymore. A club can make a better investment into a strong cb or a player that is all around solid.

    In general players are not as defined by their nationality as they used to be. Mbappe could very well be German or Uruguayan. Most that's left about countries and their individual styles are clichés.
     
  19. 4x4s

    4x4s Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 26, 2006
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    She's an amazing person and very self aware of the attention she gets and for what reason. I got to listen to her plenty and there seems to be absolutely nothing wrong with her or her message.
     
  20. Serengeti_Boy

    Serengeti_Boy Member+

    Sep 15, 2009
    Serengeti, East Africa
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Tanzania
    None of these teams can take on United imo. You need good defenders against their current set up and clearly inter are the only ones who can pull it off.
     
  21. 4x4s

    4x4s Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 26, 2006
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I'd give Sevilla a solid chance vs United, or anybody on a good day.
     
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  22. hala_madrid722

    hala_madrid722 Member+

    Jan 10, 2013
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    This doesn’t have much to do with anything I said. You may not be wrong on this specific example but everything I said prior & the general message I was trying to get across still stands.

    I don’t think with we are even disagreeing with each other tbh, my post was a general statement to the forum.
     
  23. 4x4s

    4x4s Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 26, 2006
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I don't think we're disagreeing either, I'm just saying from a general standpoint, a player like Ronaldinho is now seen as a liability. He'd be playing as a winger, where he wouldn't be as effective, and blasted for not giving enough support to the fullback when the opponent attacks, because the creative midfield player that doesn't work off the ball is seen as a lazy cherry picker.

    Nowadays even Ronaldo (Cristiano) puts up some decent defensive contribution stats, which just shows how much the game has changed really.
     
  24. Saeta Rubia

    Saeta Rubia Member+

    May 28, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
     
  25. Prit Javier

    Prit Javier Member+

    Real Madrid
    England
    May 9, 2018
    I agree Casemiro is the best player in his position and hes proven it time and time again, not to mention he is a role model.
     

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