The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

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  1. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Then you can't deduct points until you've proven they did something wrong.
     
  2. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Once again an argument nobody in this thread is making...
     
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  3. Chesco United

    Chesco United Member+

    DC United
    Jun 24, 2001
    Chester County, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Tinfoil Teddy said so.
     
  4. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It seems to me that you’re missing the point. The point is that there’s obviously at least an APPEARANCE of Man City successfully delaying the process. The delay is the issue. Responding that they can’t be punished without a finding is straw manning. You are arguing against a thing nobody is saying.
     
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  5. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In my view these two sentences contradict each other. How can it be “under the guise” if the thing you say in the very next sentence is the actual intent? It can’t be a pretext AND the goal at the same time!
     
  6. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But the delay in the FA investigation is the the result of a criminal investigation.
     
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  7. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Big Clubs only care about themselves. They don't want uber wealthy people coming in, pumping up one of the little clubs into the big time and poaching their riches. They want to prevent another Man City from happening. So they use the guise of preventing a Malaga as a cover for their real purpose. IF they came out and said FFP was about preventing a Man City, fans would go into an uproar about sporting merit, etc. By explaining FFP as a way of "protecting" the smaller clubs from financial ruin a la Malaga, that medicine goes down much easier.
     
  8. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So then maybe nobody should be punished in a way that impacts the standings until everyone in the same league can be investigated and determined to be innocent or guilty. That way P/R is being determined on an even basis on the field, not by when your lawyers can delay investigations till.
     
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  9. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    I have 'moved on', I will happily wait until somebody shows me some proof to back up their, frankly, incorrect claims, until then I'll 'move on' but as its YOU that keeps bringing it up I suggest perhaps YOU move on?
     
  10. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I hope your right. I am not as optimistic, my concern is the rules will be carved away one by one and like a frog in boiling water in 30 years it will just be normal that some clubs primary purpose is to provide players for bigger clubs.

    What got my attention was the prem vote allowing loans between associated clubs, and that FSG, who voted to limit those loans, almost immediately started looking for a club to buy to support Liverpool. Feels like if you want to compete at the top level you need a "minor league" club.
     
  11. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    What a daft thing to suggest!!! There are certain things that MUST be in place at EVERY level of the beautiful game! We used to use jumpers as goalposts but that wasn't allowed in schoolboy football let alone tiers higher up!!! Its obviously health and safety, Luton KNOW that there are certain 'standards' that have to be met at EVERY level............its called health and safety and if Gateshead wan't to develop by rising through the tiers then I suggest they spend their money accordingly - its easily done thousands of other clubs have done it successfully before them!
     
  12. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    So in other words it's more heresay? You can't 'punish' Man City on heresay.
     
  13. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For different offenses, several years apart when there were different rules in place?

    Maybe they should have held back on expelling Leeds City.
     
  14. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nope that’s a different poster.
     
  15. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1. Hearsay not heresay
    2. That’s not what hearsay means either
     
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  16. Jeremy Goodwin

    Jeremy Goodwin Member+

    SSC Napoli
    Feb 16, 1999
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Right now Man City is too big to fail and too big to give significant sanctions to.

    EPL doesn't put significant sanctions on top teams. You'll never see Man City in League 1 or 2 as punishment for FFP violations, legal violations, or bankruptcy. Enforcement is just not that serious in England for competitive teams. They'll never be directly expelled from the league instead of having a fig leaf of points deducted from the current or future season. They'll never have titles vacated.

    And UEFA will stand by and take no actions as well.
     
  17. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Whatever. Its irrelevant. Like I said, I will happy to wait for proof, YOU are the one that won't drop it.
     
  18. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member+

    Money Grab FC
    Apr 26, 2012
    What if it's heretical hearsay?
     
  19. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
     
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  20. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
     
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  21. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If that is right it would allow any team to spend 2.5 times what Manchester City spend today.
     
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  22. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe. There is a chance this is true. If Man City are found guilty of what they are charged with then the prem will probably need to kick them out of the league, and vacate all of their titles for it to be meaningful. Can they really do that to a club that is on course to win it's fourth title in a row and what it's 6th in 7 seasons?

    But if that's the case why even charge them? Why not just ignore it all and pretend there is nothing to see here. Or just have an investigation, say they did a bunch of bad things but they can't actually be punished because it was to long ago. I mean there might be a story or two in the Athletic or the Guardian calling you cowards, and more fodder for rival supporters online but they'll be a match in a week and everyone will move on. Those seem the best options if the prem was not going to do anything.

    But they didn't choose that option, instead they publicly charged Man City. I think this is a point that is lost on a lot of people. This is no longer an investigation. The premier league has completed it's investigation and has said that they think Man City cooked it's books. That's serious, and as importantly they put forth charges. They aren't charging unless they think they can prove this to the independent arbitrator.

    So I think the much more likely scenario isn't that the prem doesn't want to punish Man City, it's that everyone knows this is extremely serious situation with massive implications for the future of the prem, so they have to be extremely slow and deliberate, make sure all the I's are crossed and the t's are dotted.

    They took their shot and expelled Man City from Europe only for it to be overturned on a technicality. This is EXACTLY what I suspect the prem is trying to avoid happening to them.

    Finally Man City is not historically that big of a club. I mean they aren't aren't a minnow and have history and a large traditional support within Manchester but if they were kicked out tomorrow, besides the embarrassment and a cycle of negative stories, I am not really sure it changes much. I don't think the prems next round of TV negotiations are impacted by it for instance. Now if Man City takes the prem to court and essentially gets every rule, process and punishment for the last 20 years declared null and void, now that would impact the league going forward.
     
  23. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As you're well aware you can't send someone to the electric chair because they've been charged with something. They have the right to a fair trial.

    So after a 4 year investigation in City's case was handed to an independent commission to adjudicate. The commission is taking the time it needs to reach a conclusion.

    UEFA had to rush their investigation because they have a time limit and their decision didn't stick.

    Everton and Forest broke different regulations and there are time limits on determining any punishment. These were introduced by the clubs by a majority vote. The majority of clubs are not the big six or big seven (or however many it is).

    Anyone who claims the Premier League is favoring the big clubs needs to understand that the Premier League is the 20 clubs.
     
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  24. STR1

    STR1 Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    May 29, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    https://urbanpitch.com/the-obsession-over-pro-rel-in-the-united-states-will-it-ever-work/


    USMNT Only fans (only care for US players abroad)
    MLS fans (show up to games not so much tune in)
    USL fans (not that many)
    Liga MX fans (big majority)
    EPL fans (big majority)
    Fans of other leagues (won't tune in MLS/USL)
    Fans of other National teams (big majority)
    USMNT fans (poor attendance/viewership)

    This is our landscape. This is what we deal with. We all fall under one of these categories.
     
  25. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Some of us more than one...
     
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