The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

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  1. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wonder what they think about the progress over the first 10 years.

    Transfers
    Man City - NYC: Shay Facey, Angeliño, Yangel Herrera (all loan pre 2019)
    NYC - Man City: Mix Diskerud, Jack Harrison
    NYC - Girona: Taty Castellanos (loan)
    Montevideo City - NYC: Santi Rodriguez

    Man City are interested in England youth international Christian McFarlane but as he's on a MLS contract they're probably not going to get a discount.

    NYC loaned Shay Facey and Angeliño in 2015 and Yangel Herrera in 2017.
     
  2. Jeremy Goodwin

    Jeremy Goodwin Member+

    SSC Napoli
    Feb 16, 1999
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Arguably, the big 5 (whoever they are at the moment) have always been more important than the competition. That's why there's a premier league at all.
     
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  3. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member+

    Money Grab FC
    Apr 26, 2012
    Spend, don't spend, they're in the league next year regardless. I don't follow and don't care to google, my impression is they make the playoffs every year, which is probably good enough - a few extra dates with butts in seats/concession income/merch sales. Which probably is couch cushion money to CFG :)
     
  4. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Very fair point
     
  5. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Tranmere fan based in Polegate, in response to the FA announcement of dropping all FA Cup replays starting next year:

    But I've been told no true English fan thinks this way...
     
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  6. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know it's not cool and doesn't get you street cred for the hottest of hot takes but I think I am going to wait until everything plays out until I call it a joke.

    Also this isn't a "Handful of clubs" this is one club, specifically the ownership of one club. Liverpool, United, Arsenal, aren't doing this, hell Newcastle appears to be following the rules, much to their fans frustration, and Chelsea ratted on themselves. One club believes it's bigger and more important than the league.

    And this is an ownership group that is also in MLS. As far as we know they haven't cheated in MLS yet, but I think that's because they don't care enough to cheat. If they decided to cheat do you really think they wouldn't blow up MLS if they thought it would further their goals?

    There is a massive difference between the way the prem is set up and the way franchise leagues are set up, including their responsibilities and powers. The prem is much more like a conference in college sports who's primary purpose is to organize the competition than it is like the NFL.

    There are advantages and disadvantages to both systems, as the 1600's pages of this thread have laid out. And you highlighted a downside to the prem way which is that the clubs are looking out for themselves first, and you often have competing priorities. But that's just a different way of doing things, doesn't make the league a joke.

    But here is the thing, you can have that without pro/rel. You see exactly the same thing happening in college sports but 10x's worse. Stanford and Cal are in the ATLANTIC Coast Conference now. And you could have pro/rel within a franchise league. You would lose some of the advantages of having "Independent Clubs" but you'd have the advantages of an organization looking out for the whole. Even if "looking out" means making the most money for the owners. So I don't really see this as a pro/rel thing.
     
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  7. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I think the sentiment is more of a "the greedy bastards are going to do it eventually, so just let them do it now" rather than a desire for it to happen.

    It is all a poor cave-in for the increasingly weak FA, who've seen their gem crushed in part by the Frankenstein's monster they created.

    When clubs moan about the FA Cup, they really are just complaining because it doesn't bring in the money.

    After all, when UEFA suggests expanding the champions league to increase the number of games, there's not a word said against it. Somehow playing seven cup games, some of which will be played with heavily rotated sides anyway, is a massive burden, yet playing 13 CL games, with the extra travel that involves, is absolutely fine.

    The really sad thing is that the worst the likes of Liverpool could have done is threaten to put their reserves out, to which the FA should have just said "OK, fine by us". It's like they've come to believe that they need a "Big 4/5/6" club to win the trophy every year to appeal to overseas markets, or something.

    The flipside is that The FA were criticised for years for being a bunch of old fossils in ties and blazers, unwilling and unable to change their ideas. Now that they have changed, everyone complains they've lost their way.
     
  8. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    The Premier League's defining principle was greed, with the idea being thought up in meeting between ITV and the top clubs of the day, as a way of them all making more money. The FA didn't get on board until later, giving it a veneer of respectablity. ITV got blown out of the water by the Spurs chairman telling Sky what ITV had bid (he had a deal to supply satellite dishes through his company), which stitched ITV up completely, while Spurs themselves got shafted, as did Everton, by slumping just as the money for success came rolling in.
     
  9. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think the only thing that would undermine an EFL that wasn't connected to the Premier League is that a dozen or so EFL clubs would want to be part of the Premier League. You'd probably end up with a Premier League 1 and 2 and then the rest.

    As it stands Leeds, Sheffield Wednesday, West Brom, Leicester, Stoke, Derby, Ipswich, Southampton, Norwich, Portsmouth, Bolton, Blackburn, Sunderland, QPR and Birmingham would all be looking to be among the "big clubs". Middlesborough, Bristol City, Hull, Bradford and Charlton would probably want in on that too.
     
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  10. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So here's the difference.

    Everton, Forest and Leicester broke FFP regulations. They knew the rules, they knew the punishment and they still broke the rules. It's in their annual financial reports.

    Man City aren't just accused of breaching FFP. They are accused of breaking the law. They allegedly falsified their accounts for 10 years. If they did falsify their accounts they may have breached FFP.

    People involved with City could to prison. Some of those people are high ups, or work for high ups in the UAE government. The British government is so concerned it's sent a diplomatic mission to the UAE for discussions. That's why the investigation is taking so long, because of potential criminal charges.

    At least that's how it was explained to me.
     
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  11. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    According to the LA Times in 2016, the City of Orlando said the number of scanned tickets at Orlando City matches at the Citrus Bowl was 17% below the reported attendance.

    A MLS spokesman responded "you can't prove that unless you have photos, na naaa na naaa na".
     
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  12. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've been told fans who would rather stay in the Championship than get promoted don't exist...
     
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  13. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You realize he's bashing a closed league right? He's saying take your ball and go away and leave us to have the game we want, which of course would include pro/rel. And of course when he says "they" it's the owners not the supporters he's referring to.

    I do think some massive changes are coming and most them I won't see as good, but I do think even with those changes they will still have some form of pro/rel.
     
  14. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    First agree 100% that the owners like the idea of the champions league expanding. But I already have seen people calling the Sainted Jurgen Klopp a hypocrite because he has been open about his thoughts on FA Cup replays. Well here is what he said in 2019 when the expansion was just a rumor.

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles...ions-league-expansion-report-as-absolute-b-ks


    I mean could you imagine the scandal if every premier league club announced before the tournament that they would only play their reserve sides so they could make room in their schedule for a newly developed tournament with the Spanish League? It would be an outrage. But luckily even the greedy Premier League wouldn't go that far.

    From the outside looking in the FA seems to be the worst of both worlds, stuffy and intransigent over small things while still willing to sell out over important things.
     
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  15. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The FA Cup makes teams money.

    The prospect of playing a real MLS club in the fourth round of the Open Cup has not lit up a frenzy under USL teams. Birmingham and New Mexico even hored smaller stadiums.

    Reported Open Cup 3rd round attendance (league avg)
    North Carolina 1,112 (1,911)
    Las Vegas 1,197 (1,394)
    Monterey 2,564 (3,917)
    Detroit 2,017 (5,693)
    Louisville 4,373 (9,872)
     
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  16. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For that matter, last year Las Vegas got 300 for an Open Cup game against an actual MLS team.
     
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  17. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Vitesse just got a bunch of sporting demerits.

    After 30 matches they have -1 points.
     
  18. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This worked out as Wealdstone won 3 of the last 5 and finished 4 points clear of the relegation zone!

    (Though a large loss today combined with a Boreham win would have relegated them, but they didn't lose and Boreham only got a draw)
     
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  19. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    So, can't disprove what I'm saying so resorting to personal insults from behind the safety of your keyboard instead eh?
     
  20. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    You even asked the question again in the same post you wrote denying you'd asked the question!
     
  21. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Careful that's EXACTLY what I said and Jason went into meltdown over it!
     
  22. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I think given the choice betwen a championship season in which their team is winning games, and a premiership season in which they were outclassed and clearly going down from October, few would choose the latter.

    That doesn't mean they'd happily be excluded forever.
     
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  23. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The problem is you keep arguing against a straw man.

    You’re right about a thing nobody is talking about except you. Congratulations. Please move on.
     
  24. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "sporting merit"

    https://www.thenationalleague.org.uk/national-league-statement-gateshead-football-club-81474

    "sporting merit"
     
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  25. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #41350 Paul Berry, Apr 21, 2024
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2024
    The local council is trying to find a new operator for the stadium, so can't guarantee it's availability for the next ten years.

    I think it would also be the only Football League stadium with a permanent running track, which never looks good, as any longstanding Brighton or Rotherham fan will tell you.

    I haven't been there personally since watching track meets featuring Brendan Foster and Steve Cram in the 1970s.

     

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