The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because winning one game is less meaningful than winning the whole season? Isn't that obvious?
     
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  2. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    But what exactly did they win they finished 2nd in their tier??!!! Lol

    That's right! They celebrated like mad because they won.............PROMOTION!
     
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  3. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes and no.

    Winning is winning but not all winning is the same. Winning the last game of the season to improve your record to 3-14 is not the same as winning the last game to claim the Lombardi Trophy.

    It struck me in "Welcome to Wrexham" how everything was about promotion and getting into the League. Winning the National League was very much a vehicle not the reward itself.
     
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  4. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    As I've pointed out before, "Welcome to Wrexham" wouldn't exactly have been the same drama had Wrexham's prize for winning the National League been playing next season in... the National League.
     
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  5. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    I'm sure those Notts fans are delighted they won promotion back to the Football League last season. And I'm sure they're delighted to see their team with a reasonable chance of promotion to League One this season.

    Of course, you'll denigrate Premier League fans as not being "real fans", but the reality is that Premier League attendances are now at the highest level since the immediate post-WWII level when there was fvuck all else to do.
     
  6. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Still see you're peddling a bizarrely inaccurate comparison... Still see you're claiming Bournmouth is the smallest conurbation in the Premier League... And I still see that you are peddling the strawman that MLS "restricts membership to the biggest markets". No, the point was that there are conurbation size requirements for MLS. No claim was made as to what the cutoff point would be for those requirements to be met. Oh, and that "since day one" is simply wrong.

    Apart from all that, good post!
     
  7. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Next Paul will be claiming that there's no difference for fans between finishing bottom - getting better draft choices, playing in the same league next season - with getting relegated.
     
  8. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The most recent first round draft pick to go on to play for the USA was Maurice Edu in 2007.

    Well as The Guardian pointed out last week, watching a winning team in The Championship is a lot more fun than watching a team get hammered every week in the Premier League.

    https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...-league-really-the-holy-grail-for-supporters?
     
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  9. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sure, and my intention wasn't to say that promotion shouldn't or isn't celebrated. It was in direct response to this part of the conversation where Crawleybus refuted the idea of celebrating the prize of winning the league:

    which suggests that promotion is the only prize and the only reason to celebrate. Which is a ludicrous idea as pointed out with my example of leagues/competitions where celebrations happen without promotion being involved.
     
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  10. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    And yet the four teams at the bottom of the league who are "getting hammered every week" are getting full houses for almost every home game.
     
  11. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Crawleybus's comments were in reply to a claim about promotion places in general, not just who won the league. In fact, a large majority of promoted teams don't win their league and for that large majority, the celebration is almost entirely because promotion has been won. I know when my team has been promoted, I've wanted them to win the league as well. If we failed to win the league but still got promoted I would be mildly disappointed. If we failed to win promotion at all, well, my reaction was "a little different".
     
  12. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: the MLS draft crapshoot, the 2023 draft is fairly typical of recent drafts. 31 drafted players were on MLS contracts at the roster freeze date in mid-September, just over 1 per team. (Several of these signed reserve team contracts and were promoted to first teams during the season.) The players on first team contracts at the end of the regular season included 25 first-round picks, 3 second-round picks, and 3 third-round picks. Exactly two players, #6 Duncan McGuire and #69 Andrew Privett, were first-choice starters at the end of the season. A third, #3 Moise Bombito, was a rotation starter. No other drafted player started more than four games. Bombito was the only one of the top five picks to start any games at all.

    Going back a year to 2022, after having another year to develop, there are two players from that draft who are currently first-choice starters in MLS: #2 Roman Celentano and #12 Patrick Schulte. Schulte earned his starting role in 2023. A few others are rotation starters: #1 Ben Bender, #14 Ian Murphy, #34 Kevin O'Toole, #81 Jasper Loeffelsend. One undrafted player from that class, Kyle Hiebert, is now a rotation starter in MLS.

    No player from either draft is currently playing in a stronger league than MLS. The players currently playing outside the US and Canada are as follows: from the 2022 draft, one player in each of the Greek and Ecuadorian first divisions, Norwegian second division, and Romanian third division; from the 2023 draft, one player in the Irish first division and one in the Colombian second division.
     
  13. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    According to Crawleybus there's only one league so why the hell were any teams other than the Premier League winners (Man City?) celebrating?
     
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  14. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    I don't believe I did? Of course winning the league is celebrated. The ultimate 'goal' of league football is to become Champions of England. To become the Champions of English football you need to first get into the top tier. Premier League football is the aim for clubs and its fans, for obvious reasons, of which one of course, as has been pointed out, is the immense riches that being a Premier League club gives you.

    The 2,239 Brighton fans that faithfully turned up for League 2 home games in 1998 are now 'living the dream..........along with the extra 29,238 fans that seem to prefer playing in the Premier League.
     
  15. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    The Guardian! lol If that was the case then clubs would simply get bigger attendances in the Championship than they do in the Premier League.........which they don't!
     
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  16. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, because this is just another attempt to derail the actual points being discussed ... there will be no indulging a strawman and contrived debate that is only happening in the quoted poster's head.

    And it's odd that even in making up a debate, this poster cuts his own legs off once again. The support for clubs was there BEFORE any pro/rel existed. That's been shown many times over in this discussion. It's also been pointed out by more than one person more than one time that it was that very support, in part, that created the need for pro/rel in the first place.

    LOL holy shit ...

    No, this is an exercise that this poster can conduct themselves ... as the debate is only being had by them.

    Any confederation's CL, WC, Confed Cup, Club WC, EFL Trophy etc etc etc .... none of these (and many others) are prizes

    ... news to me

    [Kyle]Holy shit dude[/Kyle]

    That's not what he said ... and what he said is true. If you're a fan of a sports team you celebrate victory/winning, period. More people are there the more of it the team does. More people are there the more that is attached to it. But what is celebrated is the same ... winning, and then what comes with hit.

    You don't celebrate the Lombardi trophy without winning first ... nor do you celebrate promotion without winning first.

    Nowhere did he say that a woeful club winning an end of season contest was the same as winning a title game.

    Correct, it would have been different. The focus would have been on the club winning it's first league title in 45yrs. It would have brought even more of the "down on luck historic team returns to glory" narrative. There'd have been more about them obtaining a points record. There would have been even more about the club having to be bailed out by the trust twice. There would have been even more about how they brought the right people in and focused on reconnecting the club to the town.

    Different, yes. So what? Oh, there'd have been too much light shown on all of the other things that make the story wonderful and matter ... rather than just the gloss of promotion? Yeah, I guess for some that'd be shot to their narrative.

    That comparison is spot on. Just because it isn't kind to your narrative doesn't mean it's wrong. However, your take on MLS conurbation size requirements is flat out wrong. MLS doesn't have them.

    (according to match reports vs stadium capacity)

    Burnley hasn't sold out a single match this season.
    Everton are drawing worse than last year and haven't sold out a match this season.
    Sheffield United haven't sold out a single game this season.
    Even Luton hasn't sold out a match in their first ever Prem go ...

    Hell, Everton are 15% below capacity

    LMMFAO

    This same poster:
    "A prize for winning! lol The ONLY prize is playing a tier higher the following year!!! Unless of course you can tell me why else fans storm the pitches in celebration?"

     
  17. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The fact Luton didn't meet their listed attendance against Tottenham makes me suspect that there were some restrictions in place.
     
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  18. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    #39468 Crawleybus, Nov 30, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2023
    Thats rubbish! Every Everton league match is sold out! Every Sheffield United league match is sold out, every Burnley league match is sold out and every Luton league match is sold out!

    https://www.evertonfc.com/tickets/latest
    https://tickets.burnleyfootballclub...ctBrowse/ProductHome.aspx?productsubtype=HOME
    https://www.lutontown.co.uk/tickets/home-ticket-news/

    Capacities vary depending on segregation restrictions and the particular competition and unless you buy corporate tickets for hundreds of pounds, unless you get tickets that can't be used for the ticket holder having 'other' commitments (I believe there are websites) or unless you buy from touts for extortionate (and illegal) prices you are NOT getting a ticket for Premier League football.

    You may be able to get a ticket for early cup competition rounds depending on the day of the game and the 'level' of opponent but then again they are NOT league tickets are they.

    Now lets compare Premier League clubs attendances between the last season they had in the Championship (which by the very nature of being promoted means it was a successful season) with the attendances the club had the following season in the top tier:-

    Aston Villa 2019 (tier 2) 36,027 - 2020 (tier 1) 41,661
    Brentford 2020 (tier 2) 11,699 - 2021(tier 1) 16,912
    Brighton 2017 (tier 2) 27,996 - 2108 (tier 1) 30,403
    Burnley 2016 (tier 2) 16,823 - 2017 (tier 1) 20,558
    Crystal Palace 2013 (tier 2) 17280 - 2014 (tier 1) 24,114

    Need I go on!! Fact is even if you scoff at Burnleys attendances this season (and they WILL sell all their league game tickets) they will get more fans this season than they did last season - and that is DESPITE them finishing top of tier 2 last season!

    Fans want Premier League football and if they had no prospects of ever gaining promotion they would NOT get the crowds they get now.
     
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  19. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Restrictions? As in who can buy or something else?

    I know there's a block for visiting fans, but that doesn't explain Everton being 15% below capacity. PL says they only have to allocate 3K and that doesn't add up to the missing folks.

    Ten percent if stadium below 30K so 1105 for Luton, which would explain the diff almost completely.
     
  20. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Everton are NOT 15% below capacity EVERY Everton home game is a sell out! It has been for years.
     
  21. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just for reference, Goodison Park holds 39414 (according to the Prem itself) and this year they are avg 33540 (according to match reports).

    33540 is only 85.09% of 39414 .... which means they are avg 15% below the capacity of Goodison this season to date.
     
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  22. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    #39472 Crawleybus, Nov 30, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2023
    Everton are NOT averaging 33,540:-

    https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/premier-league/attendances

    https://www.statista.com/statistics...english-premier-league-by-average-attendance/

    https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/besucherzahlen/wettbewerb/GB1/saison_id/2023

    https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/eng-premier-league-2022-2023/1/

    https://www.evertonfc.com/results

    Everton sell out EVERY home league game, they have done for years!

    And as you can see here they will be in the future too!!

    https://www.evertonfc.com/tickets/latest
     
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  23. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  24. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Remember a lot English teams use police attendances based on turnstile clicks rather than tickets sold, so if a couple of hundred season ticket holders don't show up they'll be under capacity. I believe Manchester United and Arsenal use tickets sold.
     
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  25. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Which is exactly what MLS and US soccer gets roasted for by pro/rel clowns all the time. Goose, Gander and such.

    I remember in this last decade ManU finally getting torched a bit for reporting "sales" (and actually inflating a bit) rather than actual asses in the seats. If it's LOL MLS "sell out" with visible empty seats, then it's LOL EVERTON "sell out" too.

    Overall point, is that not everyone is showing up at Everton ...
     
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