The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Out of curiosity, when cities gain/lose major sports teams, does it have any significant impact on attendance or interest in the city's other sports teams?

    It's difficult to compare in England because of the lack of franchising, but the growth of rugby union since turning pro around 30 years ago doesn't seem to have had the slightest impact on football crowds, and crowds have risen significantly.
     
  2. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    What's the issue it isn't solving?
     
  3. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The issue is the ever widening revenue gap that the breakaway Premier League has created. The EPL is making money hand over fist. They are not obligated to share that money with the EFL, because they are legally a separate entity. Good luck getting the EPL to agree to share any significant amount of their wealth/income with the rest of the EFL.

    This is exactly WHY the EPL was formed in the first place. The largest clubs in England at that time knew that the game wasn't being presented in a way that would allow them grow and compete with their continental counterparts. They had no faith or confidence that the FA's and EFL's leadership could grow the game properly. So they formed the premier league, and here we are today. That genie isn't going back in the bottle.
     
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  4. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seeing as the Premiership has been in crisis mode this season......I wouldn't say that the game has grown a lot. They had two clubs go bankrupt this after the current season started.
     
  5. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Crawleybus already pointed out to you that there are other sports in Britain. Yes they are dwarfed by football but that's not to dissimilar to what the NFL does to other sports in the US. The draft will dominate US sports in most markets in April even as the NBA and NHL playoffs are starting. Here's the other thing, there are fairweather fans in England. My comments about the brits being "better fans" was half joking. Man United and City have similar levels of support in Manchester, but United is huge in wider Lancashire, Ireland, London and the rest of the world. Similar with Liverpool. and Everton. It's changed a little now with most supporters I meet being American but 20 years ago most Liverpool supporters I met were foreign but not Scouse. They were Irish, South African, ANZAC or English but from outside Merseyside. I don't think US and UK fans are that different I actually think we share a lot of similarities. The idea of going to the pub and just watching the sports that are on be it Six Nations, a cricket test series, darts, or snooker in the UK isn't that different than the US sports bar experience. Which at least in my experience I have NOT seen in other parts of the world.

    Now I am not saying that soccer in the US is the same as England, obviously, but here is a counterfactual. What if the NFL for some reason decided they wanted to adopt pro/rel. Let's say college football just became fully professional and some of the top programs wanted to get into the NFL but the NFL didn't want to expand beyond 32 so they decide to create a form of pro/rel. Do you think Americans would accept it?
     
  6. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Is the NFL the most popular sport in the US? Cricket is the 'national sport' in England though over the last 40 years or so its fallen behind football for sure (am I right in thinking that kind of 'mirrors' baseball and NFL 'over there')? Rugby is the no. 1 sport in Wales, though again football 'might' have overtaken it in some parts of the valleys.
     
  7. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Thats not 'proof its broken'!!? Surely its the opposite no? Its proof on how well it works no? If Wigan have been mis-managed then they LOSE, thats the whole point of pro/rel no? If Luton get promoted they WIN and they can build a nice shiny new stadium, if they don't get promoted they LOSE and have to stay as they are...............that's how its supposed to work! Put it this way, Oldham Athletic are LOSERS yet Brighton and Hove are WINNERS - one club has done it right and one club has done it wrong! To have winners you must have losers do you not? Why should we grieve over Wigan when there are thousands of other, better run clubs that may just deserve a place over Wigan?
     
  8. Chesco United

    Chesco United Member+

    DC United
    Jun 24, 2001
    Chester County, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I believe that the success of St. Louis City is in part due to the Rams moving.
     
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  9. Chesco United

    Chesco United Member+

    DC United
    Jun 24, 2001
    Chester County, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Baseball is the national pastime. The general consensus is that the NFL passed it with the 1958 Championship Game.
     
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  10. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    More than anything, it's an indication that vetting of owners is failing miserably. This is the fourth month that Wigan have failed to pay their players and the guy has only been owner for two years.

    As for Andy Holt, he's right about some things, but he's also a perpetual whiner who even complained and stamped his feet when the local council tried to enforce noise laws at his entertainment bar at Accrington's ground.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lancashire-64039198
     
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  11. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    It's grown hugely. Back then, crowds were much smaller. Northamption, who sell out their 15000 place, for example, had what looked like a decent non-league ground.

    You are probably looking at crowds rising to 3x the levels of before.

    The money coming in is also vastly more. Ticket prices are very expensive, and the game attracts high profile sponsors, due to the stereotypically more affluent nature of the fans of the game.

    Sadly, even with a salary cap, spending is an issue, although the two clubs that went did have other issues. A dodgy owner for one, and a plan that backfired for the other - even from the outside, the numbers never seemed to add up with regards to Wasps buying the stadium in Coventry. Had their Repton Avenue ground not been hopeless inadequate, they wouldn't have had to begin their nomadic journey to QPR, then Wycombe, then Coventry.

    Rugby's amateur ways kept it small time, if very friendly. Even today, the tradition of the players going into the bar after the game is apparently quite strong. Below the premier, where the game is much more like how it used to be, it's the norm, where you really feel clubs are 'clubs' more than professional sports. I went to a game at Rosslyn Park a few weeks back, and while the ground did have a certain charm, it would certainly have been condemned if football was played there.

    Maybe a kind of ramshackle charm is part of the place - their club bar used to regularly see Oliver Reed as a member after all. About 200m up the road is the tree into which Marc Bolan's car crashed in 1977, which has no relevance, but you can't leave a bit of trivia like that out.
     
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  12. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree (somewhat) about Andy Holt, but to be clear I was referencing the follow-up to his tweet. Where a Championship side can go up for even just one season, come back down, and afford to build a ground they would use in the Championship, but if they don't go up they can't afford to build that ground. A team can't afford build a ground for the division they're currently in unless they get promoted, but if they do they can get relegated in one year and still build the ground? The gap between the Championship and the EPL keeps getting bigger and bigger and its killing the pyramid.
     
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  13. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It was a money grab by 5 or 6 clubs. The rest just followed along, including Notts County and Luton Town.
     
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  14. STR1

    STR1 Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    May 29, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    For NFL only fans Pro/Rel will be an alien concept. But if the NFL were to adapt it and be willing to share all their revenues with lower leagues, sure go ahead. I just find it difficult to believe that the NFL would be willing to adapt a Pro/Rel concept. Too much money would be lost just for no other reason than to say "we have Pro/Rel".

    A simpler solution would be to extend the NFL regular season to 30 games. More games=more money. Making money is what really matters.
     
  15. Chesco United

    Chesco United Member+

    DC United
    Jun 24, 2001
    Chester County, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Where would NFL relegate teams to?
     
  16. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Very similar situation with regards to cricket and football 'over here' I think. There has been a bit of a resurgence in cricket 'over here' over the last few years, the English team are world cup winners and the T20 league cricket has been popular with younger people.
     
  17. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    #35817 Crawleybus, Mar 22, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2023
    That's completely irrelevant and it isn't 'killing the pyramid' in fact pro/rel does the exact opposite AS LONG as there is pro/rel, fact is 3 teams WILL be promoted into the money pit that is the Premier League and 3 teams WILL get relegated, in fact without doubt the 'gap' would be massively bigger without pro/rel, the same can be said for all the levels, everybody has access to Premier League riches and its that that keeps the crowds at the lower league clubs so high.

    Ryan will tell you how the supporters 'dream' over here:-

    https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/wel...er-league-dream-hollywood/blt45af354bfe4cc823

    He seems to have bought in to the way fans think/operate here, every club, including my hometown club harbour such 'dreams' and because of this its a bloody difficult, but enthralling ride. First step for Wrexham, get out of the Non-league pyramid (looks like there is a good chance they will be able to tick that one off this year). Incidentally in 1979 Wrexham were a Championship club, their highest achievement to date, they spent 4 seasons there until they got relegated back to League 1, if they could only have made it one step further into the top flight they might be a different club today.
     
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  18. Chesco United

    Chesco United Member+

    DC United
    Jun 24, 2001
    Chester County, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Do cricket fans in the UK tend to be elderly? That is the stereotype of baseball fans. I was lost as a baseball fan with the 1994-95 strike. I have a feeling I'm not the only one.
     
  19. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    The XFL. But it only appears every once in a while, sometimes almost 20 years later, so the relegation thrillers are even more thrilling.
     
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  20. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    It's kind of theoretical. It would involve going up and spending a minimal amount on improving the team, accepting immediate relegation, and a very disgruntled playing squad.

    As a long term plan, it would be a good idea, but would be quite painful in the short term, and the club could find themselves in League One by the time that ground is built.

    Weirdly, despite all the money being splashed about, the standard of the championsip is the worst I can remember.
     
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  21. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    It's a difficult one, as the game has several formats.

    You could probably stereotypically bracket fans youngest to oldest in T20 > normal one day games - test matches - county matches.

    The county championship is quite bizarre in that it's played out to very small crowds in an atmosphere of apathy, maybe a few hundred people at each game. The nature of the game, taking several days to play, and each day being from around 11 am to 6 pm on weekedays, does rather limit who can attend.
     
  22. AlbertCamus

    AlbertCamus Member+

    Colorado Rapids
    Sep 2, 2005
    Colorado, USA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    In the USA they would probably hit the taxpayers up for the money.
     
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  23. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    ... under threat of relocating the team.
     
  24. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    It's also just the latest installment of a saga that has been running for over half a century, including an attempt at one point to relocate to Milton Keynes. At this point it's hard to take anything too seriously regarding a stadium move for them.

    That's certainly my perception. Burnley are running away with it despite having to sell most of their relegation team to pay back the money that was borrowed to fund the 2021 leveraged buyout of the team. Even the other relegated teams, Watford & perennial yoyo'ers Norwich City look mediocre.
     
  25. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    It is indeed a stereotypical view, I don't know what the reality is though. When I was a boy at school we played a lot of cricket in the summer months.
     

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