Who are you trying to convince? We all know that the ESL is about money. BTW, where does UEFA rake all of this money that they redistribute??? Oh yeah, that's right.......The Euros, the Nations League (which the clubs and more importantly the players themselves don't want) and the UEFA Champions/Europa/Conference Leagues..... An ESL would certainly diminish the value of UEFA's Club Competitions. Sure at one point in time UEFA was a morally and ethically pure organization doing right for all Football Fans in Europe! Those days are long gone. Why isn't the Club World Cup more popular or a bigger competition? Oh that's right......because UEFA is against it. You would think that an organization that is supposedly for keeping football with the people and growing the game would be all for an expanded Club World Cup. What many continue to ignore is that their are bad actors on both sides of the ESL divide. There are also some who have good, intelligent points as well. The ESL isn't the answer either. Though that isn't to say that some of the points and concerns that Angelli brings up aren't worth discussing.
Sorry, but UEFA is a European federation community for the benefit of European football. Nothing more, nothing less. Players and clubs with the players union have been complaining about the ever increasing number of matches, which this socalled club world cup is another not wanted example. UEFA doesnot control popularity of whatever matches there are available. That club world cup isnot broadcast in any form in Europe, because no tv station is interested as no football fan gives a shit about it, not because UEFA doesnot approve of it. If that CWC was greatly wanted by fans in Europe, the networks would gladly put it on their schedule and cash in the advertising money it would bring in. Just go to the Real threaads to see how they view that CWC. The overwhelming majority are in favour of sending their "B-team". UEFA isnot among the Real posters, who are mostly in favour of the esl, not very popular, so I doubt that it's the UEFA controlling their sentiment. This quote from you again demonstrates that you don't get it: "An ESL would certainly diminish the value of UEFA's Club Competitions." It's not about this in the first place, it's about the esl wanted to be a parasite inside the UEFA. Nobody can stop them under EU laws to go rogue, but the don't. Simply because the only way to have a chance is to do it the parasite way. What is it that you blame the UEFA/member FA's/clubs for being against that? You throw in the nations league as an example that is not wanted by players or clubs. Dude, really? The matches of the UNL replace the excercise friendlies national teams play in preparation for tournements. So these arenot matches added to the schedule, but replacements to add meaning in them for nations not in the top category of the UEFA rankings. Do you really think players would object to a selection by a national team coach for an excercise friendly before the UNL existed, and jeoperdize a selection? When Advocaat was Belgium coach superstar Kompany thought he could permit himself priviliges given his status and arrived two days late in training camp. Advocaat told him to get a hike and made clear to all players there was only one rule and that's his rule and nobody gets an exemption to it, whatever his status. So you get players complaining about matches that would be played anyway, but under another name and without consequences of the standing of the national team in rankings. So try again dissing an UEFA measure as being an addition to a crowded calendre. Failed again. You have yet to put on the table something that goes along with your mantra of UEFA is bad/not better than the esl pushers. You're running in circles. Remember I've been analysing and predicting the outcome of this whole esl mess from it's first incarnation as a stand alone break away league through the parasite incarnation and everything I wrote has become reality, from a financial viability up to the political, cultural and legal side. You don't stand a chance in defending the esl by attempting to make UEFA a lookalike of them. Just stop it. It's getting ridiculous.
Get off it dude. You're selectively applying a principle, period. I didn't realize you'd go so far with that as to lend it to this type of thing, of which you've taken part of over the entirety of the discourse. In regard to pro/rel in the USA, how folks apply opinion/thought/etc to it is absolutely relevant. Case in point, how you view owenership and what they should be doing in regard to their league despite not carrying that weight to all endeavors. That's part of the issue with fans here in the US, and the whole pro/rel DING DING DING DING DING Winner winner chicken dinner
Oh dear, onather one without a clue or in complete denial of what has been posted that jaikoz can't refute with real arguments Ding ding
Sure Jan ... you're in denial of what UEFA really is, is about. You're in denial of the realities surround the game everywhere.
Dude, you're with your buddies just spouting insinuations. Put on the table proof of what you claim. The point however is you guys don't like the esl outcome as you desperately want the European football landscape be transformed into the barren wasteland of the usual professional sports of the States, a few have alls in a handful of cities and nothing outside of it. You desperately want to see European football transformed into a wasteland with only tv matches for the majority of the fans and all the tens of billions that now are spread out over the continent over numerous clubs, ranging from massive ones to very modest ones, into the hands of NFL/NBA like closed shops. You're frustrated because your years on end spouted nonsense about the esl going to run over the P/R format leagues in contradiction to what I put on the table has been wiped off the table. So now you have nothing else left than spouting nonsense about UEFA as bad guys without any example of it. Sorry dude, my analysis and predictions about the esl in the end turned out to be exact correct up to the recent European Court decision. That you guys steep down to the level to become apologists of the corrupt parasite scheme of the esl by pretending UEFA isnot different is proof of blatant ignorance, even worse, denial about what UEFA in fact is, not a organisation on it's own, but a collective of members, the European FA's. But keep on creating a fake reality, it's so American like Donald Trump stolen elections. I guess you sleep better with your unicorn reality.
Honestly don't know what you are talking about. Still don't know what you are talking about so I'll restate my position and you can decide what you agree and don't agree with. Every league should be looking around the world to see what is working or what isn't. To me that makes sense. And I know they are. During the pandemic apparently the commissioner of the SEC read a book about the rise of the Premier League, recommended it to other people in his orbit so much that apparently it is influencing the SEC's thoughts going forward with expansion and their place in wider college football. Now obviously you can't take on board every lesson and often the way another league does something may not even be applicable for a variety of reasons. Now to focus on MLS, not because I am actively trying to cherry pick, or ignoring other leagues, but because this thread is about Pro/rel in the US. MLS should be looking around to see what works. We know they took a lot on board from the NFL. Garber worked there, a number of influential owners have NFL teams. And of course the NFL is the biggest league in this country and despite what certain weirdo posters claim on this board, actually serves the fans pretty well (with the huge exception of San Diego). So again makes sense that MLS would look to the NFL. But unlike the NFL and other American Sports leagues MLS does not exist only in the vacuum of the US. It is part of a huge worldwide sport that most current and potential fans are aware of. So it makes sense for MLS to take lessons from other leagues playing the exact same sport. That doesn't mean they have to be clones but again makes sense to see how other places do it. And a specific difference between MLS and almost the entire rest of the world is pro/rel. And whether you like it or not pro/rel does matter. It does add to the league, it is in integral part of the leagues that have it. I have never in my life heard a person who follows a league with pro/rel advocate the ending of pro/rel. I am sure somewhere they exist but I've never heard it. Now assuming you are still reading I agree that just because another place does something doesn't mean MLS has to. I don't want MLS to adopt Pro/rel because "that's what the prem does". I want MLS to adopt pro/rel because I think it would make MLS a much more appealing product. It takes away the need to have an 18 team playoff to keep the season interesting. Reduces issues with owners not investing. And in a sports world that seems be shifting back to the individual fans supporting clubs through tickets, merch, and direct to consumer streaming it allows MLS to grow it's supporters by having clubs in an infinite number of markets. I have heard all the excuses why it can't happen in the US but they are getting fewer and fewer. At this point the only two are that it creates more exposure for the owners and would reduce the price of future expansion clubs.
Clubs in an infinite number of markets? Have we broken the space-time continuum? If MLS ever has pro/rel, its number of clubs will still be however many clubs it has.
In what way does the manner in which pro sport contracts in the USA are put together differ from the European style? Especially those for the MLS players?
I knew someone would take me literally. But you could have as many as you wanted. Which theoretically you could have now. But the league is set up horizontally so you run into bigger and bigger issues around keeping the season relevant for struggling clubs, making sure the clubs get to play each other, and having massive disparities between the best and worst clubs among other things which eventually necessitates a cap on clubs. Those issues are greatly reduced if you divide the league vertically allowing more clubs.
Huh? You made a comment abvout the "biggest supporter" of UEFA and I pointed out that fans who opposed the ESL were implicitly bigger supporters of it The fact they may or may not be English fans is irrelevant to the comment I made - by strongly opposing the ESL they are implictly supporting UEFA. Nationality is irrelevant to the point I was making.
As an American I could care less about the fate of European Football. I don't care about the ESL either. Yes, UEFA is the Union of European Football Associations. Great, I knew that already. Doesn't mean that the people running some of those FA's and UEFA for that matter aren't corrupt and driven by self interests. At the end of the day they're all members of FIFA also...... Also, you're little rant about how EUROPEANS don't want the CWC.....proves my point. The rest of the World, you know the other 5 Confederations in FIFA...want a World Club Championship. Do you not think that having the best clubs from South America, North and Central America, Africa, Asia and Oceania competing against each other and the best clubs from Europe wouldn't be a compelling competition? Not to mention something that would bring much needed money the member FA's of those Confederations? One last thing, don't ever bring up that spray tan dufus again. The majority of Americans voted against him in the past two elections, including myself.
Why do you think, say ... The CL clubs move down from the CL group failure to Europa? Because Europa needs the "big name" clubs that don't make it in CL in order to generate the money. It isn't about the good of soccer at all ... it's about the bottom line. There, now you show a point ... I actually don't give one hot damn what leagues in other countries do. I will point to how a European league switched from the common model to an "American" one and it saved the league while bringing it to heights it'd never seen before (the KHL). Yes, I believe there are MERITS to how our system operates but again, don't give a crap that very few places elsewhere operate the same. It's irrelevant to my enjoyment (or lack of) of sports outside the US. The only fake reality in play here, is the one you've made up about what we believe and think. And in my experience, the person having to go to tossing insinuations about the other person's actual person (such as your little quip here) is the one that's talking out his ass and has nothing.
@feyenoordsoccerfan: "But keep on creating a fake reality, it's so American like Donald Trump stolen elections." Since you brought it up, regardless of how Americans - or non-Americans - feel about it, claiming an election was stolen or that there was interference in voting has happened in other countries in the past. So the "fake reality" that you think is "so American" isn't really "so American." Not sure if you're American, but if not, and are European, that's "so European" - having very strong opinions on a topic that's more or less an American issue, and in this case whether or not a domestic league should or should not implement pro/rel (and even if MLS never does implement it it won't even negatively effect your way of life and livelihood). I mean, Liga ACB, Spain's top flight basketball league, is pro/rel and I really couldn't care less, with its basketball clubs staying with European names. What's really "non-American" is saying that X or Y is "so American" when not fully understanding X or Y issue/topic when acting like one does. Now that's more of a fake reality than whatever you perceive as bizarre, weird or stupid that's happening in the States - politically or sporting.
There's a fundamental difference between pointing out that league structure in Europe across different sports differs from that in the USA in this conversation, versus yammering on about how stupid Americans are or how much you hate the NFL.
Okay but what does that have to do with any of the conversations I was having? Please point to a place where I said I hate the NFL. (I hate Dean Spanos and the Chargers organization thus I am annoyed at the NFL because he is part of it) This happens all the time where I respond to a specific point and get a response based on inferences someone is making about what they think I believe. At one point I almost created a word document with standard responses like, "I don't have a problem with playoff's", "I don't have a problem with conferences" "I actually like other American Sports" "MLS is not required to adopt Pro/Rel" "I will give MLS a go if there is a club in my home market" and so on to copy and paste to save time in my responses. The original conversation was another poster saying the Euro Basketball League isn't set up exactly like the NBA as an argument that MLS doesn't need to be set up exactly like the Euro leagues. And I literally agreed with that. But I then went on to explain that maybe MLS should think of adopting Pro/Rel because it is so universally popular in other soccer leagues around the world. Which then got me called out because I didn't engage on specific ways Euro Basketball should work? Huh? Hence my response saying I didn't realize we were talking about Euro Basketball which then got me called out by you for hating the NFL? Again... huh?
I thought you were referring to my earlier comments in response to some posts I deleted. If you weren't referring to those, my apologies.
You keep missing the point, while it isnot that hard to understand. With 4 clubs in a CL group the chance that two clubs only have dead rubber matches left because two clubs already have qualified for the KO stage is large, especially as the groups are composed from one club out of tier 1, tier 2, tier 3 and tier 4 quality groups. So a relegation spot to the Europa League is needed to prevent dead rubber matches. And by definition the chance real big names end up in 3d place isnot that big, so your stupid assumption/suck your thumb conclusion it's to big up the EL with big names doesnot hold much content. On top of that the EL making money in the end is making money for the clubs involved, not for UEFA. The big names you're blabbering about were already in the EL, so no ...you're once again completely wrong. For someone (you and your buddy) who cares so little about what goes on in Europe/esl matters you really give alot of effort to sweep UEFA on the same dunghill the esl is with things you still havenot backed up with concrete facts.
Still waiting for facts, not fake news about corrupt UEFA people going their way unhindered/unpunished. Are there people in certain FA's corrupt? I don't know, but I'm not trusting those in countries with a proven history of corruption and nepotism. Especially those countries the EU has called out for breaking down the Rule of Law. They however have no possibility to do that within the UEFA organisation. But still this all has nothing to do with what the esl had in mind and the actions UEFA and the individual FA's took. European club players don't want it, because of their already overloaded schedules. On top of that it doesnot make money, as almost no one in Europe wants to watch it, so no networks are going to broadcast it. But the first thing that should be taken care of is sweeping off the schedule other matches to make room for it without harm for players health.
The irony of course is that UEFA used to have three cup competitions that were all taken seriously, until they shovelled the bigger clubs into one competition and rendered the others as devalued 'also ran' competitions. Then, when they realised their mistake, they picked up the least interesting part of the Champions League, the group stage, as their way of making the Europa League more interesting. The fundemental problem with changing these competitions for TV is that there are three things that attract viewers for UEFA's competitions; 1) big name clubs, 2) teams from the viewers' own country, 3) latter stages games. Outside maybe a semi-final, fans in England won't watch Lazio v Atletico Madrid. Fans in Spain won't watch Spurs v RB Leipzig. The game is sadly being run as if it's there for the benefit of a small number of 'elite' clubs, and a few of those elite clubs clearly now think the same way.
This has been the result of the big clubs blackmailing UEFA with a breakaway. Now their threat spectacularly failed and with the European Supreme Court decision in their pocket added to that failure they can undo the pampering of the big clubs. Something UEFA should take notice of is how they were taken by surprise by the popularity of the Conference League matches. Many football journalists wrote how much more fun it was to watch those matches over the socalled big club matches in the CL. They put the final in Tirana in a 25thousand seat stadium. It turned out the application for tickets from both Roma and Feyenoord was for each over 300thousand, so it could have sold 600,000 seats if such a stadium existed.
Pro/rel doesn’t eliminate meaningless matches, it just changes them. In MLS, the important end of season matches are at the top, for the Shield, and in the middle, to make the playoffs. In Europe, the big matches are at the top and the bottom. Nobody cares about the middle 10-12 teams, except as entry into another competition. Since the Fight for Fourth (and the Champions League) isn’t about the league, that’s not a reason to support pro/rel. How many important matches were there in England this weekend that only pertain to thenEnglish league? City, Arsenal, and a number of clubs at the bottom. In a month, some of the relegation candidates will either be clear or be dead, and maybe Arsenal will have pulled away, and there might be 2 interesting matches a week. That never happens in MLS except maybe the very last weekend. the reason most posters think pro/rel leads to more matches that are meaningful is that they don’t understand that the Fight for Fourth has nothing to do with pro/rel. I don’t understand why they don’t understand it, but there you have it.
I think you're confusing several themes being put up in here, with the P/R one of course the main topic. Another topic is the topic of meaningful matches, brought in by the mls supporters because of the forced parity in it and the way the mls competition is structured without home/away matches and play offs. So when it is about that subject meaningful matches, the battle for CL/EL/Conf. League matches and the fighting off of relegation are meaningful matches, of which of course only the relegation battles have to do with P/R.