Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.
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Forest is just now finding it's cohesion after turning over nearly the entire team from last season. They're 6 points clear of the drop currently. I have a feeling Everton, Southampton and Bournemouth will eventually be the three to take the drop.
Oh, this is a new one. You can't learn tactics without coaching in lower leagues with pro/rel, as if the rules of the game are somehow different? And American coaches don't learn counterattacking soccer, the style that has virtually defined the US national team for most of the last three decades?
I don't think even the most rabid pro/rel fanatics have made those arguments before, because they don't even pass the laugh test.
I wonder how many times (in the history of the English football league) the same clubs that were promoted the season before all went straight back down - I genuinely don't know, by some peoples reckoning it should be a very common event, the reality is though I think its rare.
On the flip side, in the 35 years since there’s been pro/rel to/from the Football League no team promoted to the league has been relegated back to the Conference the following season.
You seem to care a lot, actually.
But it's off topic, so...back to prol/rel in American soccer.
IMO, those of us who live outside of the UK, and are fans of English Soccer perceive this to be the case. What is actually happening is that there is a group of about 15 clubs that tend to yo-yo between the Championship and the Premier League every few season. We're talking about Norwich City, West Brom, Wolves, Fulham, Crystal Palace, Swansea, QPR, Burnley, Watford, Sunderland, Hull City, Stoke City and Reading. Now, they might survive and stay up for 3-5 seasons, and then go down. Some go up, and then back down. For the most part they are all established Championship level clubs. For the most part we tend to see a combination of any 3 of those teams going up or down every season. Yes there are exceptions (Leeds, West Ham, & Newcastle in years past, & probably Everton this season). It's not that the teams that go up that year and down that year take one another's place. It's that we see a combination of the "same" teams going up and down every season. With some exceptions.
We see teams come up, and a few stay for coffee & breakfast, some stay for Lunch, some stick around for Tea, others have managed to make a home, and others barely manage to stay for coffee.
Which, IMO, Everton could very well be the next Sunderland. I'm not sure they are equipped/have the fight in them for the grueling mosh pit that is the EFL Championship.
It's healthy. It's brilliant. It's unique. America is not there. There simply are not nearly enough stable and healthy clubs below MLS yet to entertain the thought of pro/rel here. Not to mention below the USL Championship........barely exists at the moment.
They've been ineptly managed for many years now, both on and off the pitch. But they've always managed to escape relegation, sometimes by the skin of their teeth. So there are definite parallels with Sunderland's downfall, which was many years in the making too. Additionally, Everton are in the middle of building their dockland stadium (which looks amazing, btw) so that further complicates their situation. Honestly, I think they need to clean house on and off the pitch in the manner that Burnley - on a much smaller scale - seem to be doing successfully.
I remember it happening around 1997 or so.
The 'bigger' the club the more likely it is to succeed, that is obvious, you are not likely to get a village team play Manchester United........HOWEVER history has told us that 'big' clubs can and do 'sink' into oblivion and 'small' clubs can and do joint the ranks of 'big boys' - ultimately success brings in crowds, crowds bring in money and money breeds success.........alternatively failure loses crowds, which loses money and lack of money breeds failure, it all of course takes time, elite clubs have a long way to fall and visa versa. Oldham are perhaps the latest example of a Premier League/Top flight club to fall into complete oblivion whereas Bournemouth or Brighton are perhaps the latest examples of 'small' clubs hitting the big time. Sometimes a club can 'fall' from grace only to 'pull their socks up' fairly quickly, other times they 'fall' from grace for a long time. It can work the other way of course for example Brentford are playing their first top flight football since 1947! Huddersfield recently played their first top flight football since the 1950's, and they won the league three years in a row in the 1920's.
Oldham Athletic could easily fall out of the National League into National League North this season however because of their more 'illustrious' past they would still pull in 5000 or so fans, which is small fry by Premier League standards but would make them the 'big' boys of National League North (which in theory anyway should give them advantages).
Brighton in comparison used to get 5000 crowds at the turn of this century but now get the benefit of a sold out home (and away) stadiums, they are 'bigger' than they were (by some distance) and therefore now they've gotten to the top the longer they stay at the top the better their resources for staying at the top. In 1993 Oldham Athletic had the opportunities Brighton now have...........Oldham failed, Brighton are succeeding.
I wonder where both clubs will be in 50 years time? It would take a monumental 'shift' for their 'roles' to be reversed but as they've swapped around once there is always a chance (be it a very small one) that they do it again! Will take exceptionally bad management, exceptionally good management and a fair amount of time though.
I'm not the mod, but what does this have to do with pro/rel in the USA?
I'm simply responding to previous posts no? Maybe you could take it up with them? Besides the whole post is EXACTLY about pro/rel? There seems to be (mainly among the 'newer' football fans) that the football landscape is set in stone even with pro/rel, I'm just pointing out that that is simply not true, any club that thinks relegation is just temporary and that promotion is inevitable is likely going to find itself in some bother! Nottingham Forest were the Champions of Europe yet even they found themselves outside the top flight for 22 years after they got relegated!
That would be a massive crowd for most USL Championship clubs here in the states. That's one area many fans in the states overlook. Would implementing Pro/Rel drive attendance in the lower leagues? I honestly don't know if it would be the needle mover many want to believe it will be.
I think it would likely be fairly rare.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again--I love pro/rel and prefer it to closed leagues and playoffs. I also think it would be a disaster here in the USA.
Just going off of play/numbers that they've put up at the halfway point. GD really starts to come into play and be a pretty good indicator for going forward and they're worst in the Prem. Add to that, their remaining schedule is top half heavy ... they're sitting in the "top" relegation spot as of this post.
Sure, and I've never stated that the BASIC SYSTEM doesn't work. As we've all stated/acknowledged/understand ... the money in the EPL makes this anything but basic. Honestly, I think that's why we're seeing what we're seeing these last couple of years. The money is making its way to more clubs thanks to that last tv deal and the stratification from say 5/6th to 15/16th isn't what it used to be (and is closing quickly). That's enabling more clubs (I mean duh, more clubs have money means more of a competitively balanced field). That and the inability of clubs to hoard players anymore, is really shaking things out. Instead of a clear cut 2nd class and then the rest ... we've got muddy waters (which to me, is much much more interesting).
It also helps a club like a Leeds or a Fulham that began building EPL clubs in the Championship (and this is a key piece IMO).
Quite possibly but they too have a top half heavy run in for the season. They're 4pts clear with a horrible GD. We'll see if the last 4 matches are just a hot streak or a turn in form.
Some time ago I actually talked about this very thing (here in this thread). I don't remember my research exactly, but I found that something like 5-6 clubs accounted for 2/3 of the promotion spots from the Championship over like a 25yr period or something. It was insane.
... and if you look at the Championship right now
I do think talking about English football is useful in a way--it shows what sort of circumstances have to exist in order for pro/rel to thrive in the 21st century.
As an example of how pro/rel could/should work in the USA...it's less useful.
I don't know...you take the top 20 MLS teams - the 24-60K seat folks?. The next 9 and say the top 12 from USL-C avg attendance 10-22K (avg pulled down by low USL-C numbers to begin, but with incentive to build..), the rest of USL-C and the top N from USL-1 for your 10K-2500K stadiums
Minimum standards on stadium size for D1 and D2 similar to what we have currently, so if Shaktar Podunk takes d3 and d2 in consecutive years on sporting merit they can't just cause the Don nightmares of his beloved MLS sides playing in the middle of nowhere in a 2,000 seat stadium....
I think it would be closer to possible here (I know, I'm ignoring the actual single entity/franchise models of MLS and USL)
If your 1st division can conveniently expand to suck up all the viable 2nd division teams without sending anyone down, good way to perpetuate the "there's too big of a drop off between MLS and USL-C" narrative...
My club won USL this season .... and we'd have been shellacked over the course of an MLS season. I love my club and all but truth is truth. Day in day out the top end of USL over the course of a season IS quite a bit off from MLS. What has played out over the last 3 seasons or so puts USL top end clubs essentially at what MLS 2.0 clubs were. 1 super standout and then 2-3 difference makers or maybe 5 really good for your level players sets you apart.
An Open Cup match ... or month worth of games? Sure, USL has some clubs that'd be competitive. NOBODY is CLOSE to a season's worth of matches at the next level ... and again I say this as a supporter of the reigning USL champions (who also has one of the best academies in US soccer arguably).
How will teams in use imptove if they do not have a chance to play top teams that this country has to offer. I mean teams like atalanta or Shalke 04 how will they get better if they sit in second dividions. Shalke might go down but they tasted what is needed to be in Bundesliga and next time they come up theybwill be ready. Atlanta was serie b for long time and then
Figure out how to playbwhen in top flight
Goal difference is literally worth half a point, and it almost never actually determines who gets relegated. I looked at every season back to 2010-11 and didn't see a single team getting relegated on goal difference.
Now if your trying to say G/D is an indicated of form I guess you could but remember this is a side who replaced their manager after being demolished 9-0 and have been much better since.
Finally not sure how they can have a top heavy schedule when we are only one match past the halfway point.
So even after 20 years of chicken littling about the prem vs the lower divisions pro/rel still works. In that newly promoted clubs can compete at the next level.
"Tasted"? In the 60 seasons that the Bundesliga has existed, Schalke has only been out of the first Bundesliga six seasons. Before being relegated after the 2021-22 season, they were in the first Bundesliga for 30 consecutive seasons. They've won the first Bundesliga four times. They're one of the historically great German teams. Tasted?
You have idea about football. At all 04 was not in Bundesliga two years now and it shows just how fast you loose that top division pedigree when you get relegated but it is hard to get it back but you fight and you make it again
you really want me to destroy nfl every time i say something all americans here go that is not true, coaching sucks( i do not know why some coaches here want to study nfl coaching for football) players need to basicly spoon feed the information to them. everybody constantly need somebody to tell him go right or left like in replaceable movie. i do not care about it at all
and yet.....someone still posts about the NFL more than any American has in this thread.....