The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wait, Prem payouts come from Prem monies?
    Come on dude ....

    Do all Prem teams get it? No.
    Actually, do any clubs in the Prem get it? No.
    Only teams that FAIL to retain their Prem status EARN this compensation. Even if it's known/agreed before, the thing you're avoiding is WHY it is given...

    The fundamentals of p/r, no of course not .... The Championship would look a hell of a lot different without them (and to an extent the Prem too).

    The 17th placed club DOES get more money even if you take out p/r. Yes, they'll earn more money the next season considering they're a Prem side and the relegated one isn't. However, the relegated side is getting substantial monies STILL (relative to the rest of the Championship) despite no longer being a Prem side.

    They EARNED that compensation the same way the 1st pick is earned ...



    It has to do with the petard that p/r is held up (especially by a few in this thread), while I've maintained that it is a religious view of soccer itself that somehow makes it different when league structure is the talking point. There's essentially been a 'nobody outside of the US' thinks this way argument made in this discussion before ... and yet here's a Convo (with soccer removed) and there are folks that aren't lining up with that. These thoughts aren't out there about p/r, allegedly ... I don't have to know anything about the Super League other than it has p/r, in order to show this with regard to THIS discussion and everything it has entailed.

    Even then, if it is a particular Super League inner working or whatever that has caused folks to feel this with toward p/r ... then that would only further the point that league structure ISN'T yadda yadda yadda
     
  2. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    First you forgot to mention that before Norwich can just "show up to matches" they will have needed to have qualified for the premier league in the first place.

    Also not sure how your math works out. Wikipedia says you basically get an extra year of payments dispersed over two years. That's a lot of money. But the team that finishes ahead of you gets an entire years worth of money now and would still get the parachute payment if they go down next year.

    So to make the math simple let's say it's 100 million (which is not far off). So a relegated club gets 55 million. Lots of money. But a club that stays up gets 100 million. Now let's move ahead a season. Relegated club gets 45 million, other club either gets another 100 million for staying up again or is relegated but then they get access to the parachute payments. In either case the club that stayed up is getting a lot more money.

    I did try and look up Championship prize money and ended up in a google hell and couldn't find a difinitive answer but even within that it appears that the Championship TV money would not even be close to making up the gap. Seems pretty clear that the relegated side would be making less money than a club that stays.

    It's money that comes from the TV contract and is only available to sides who were in the Prem. If you have an issue with when they distribute it great but it's not crazy for institutions to have delayed compensation.
     
  3. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Other Premier League teams get even more money. So they aren't getting anything extra that other premier league clubs don't get. Where it IS extra is relative to the Championship. But it is an extra because they had qualified for the prem.

    Your analogy is actually terrible. First in order for it to work the team getting the #1 draft pick would need to have achieved an accomplishment previously. Maybe having the best combined record for the previous three seasons out of the teams not qualified for the playoffs or something like that. And even then it doesn't work because the #1 pick is something of value that other teams that had more on field success don't get.

    Parachute payments are less valuable than than a normal prem payout. So your continued comparison to the #1 draft pick fails at a pretty fundamental level.



    Okay yes there are none Americans who think the issues with Pro/rel outweigh the advantages. Fair enough this post does show that.
     
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  4. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But the clubs the relegated teams are competing against receive an average of about £9 million per season in TV and sponsorship money.

    So if the EPL is is going to award money for reaching the top-flight they should award it when the team is in the top-flight. The have up to June 30th in the season they're relegated.

    The problem they have is that that without parachute payments, promoted teams would be less willing to invest, leading to a bigger gap between rich and poor and an even less competitive competition.
     
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  5. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yikes!

    Derby’s administrators have been asked to provide a funding plan to the EFL to demonstrate how the club can fulfil their fixtures through to the end of the season.
     
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  6. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    By the way I remember being in a bar in Halifax, Yorkshire, in 1983 or 1984 and seeing Derby's employees being locked out of their old stadium on TV. That's when Ghislaine Maxwell's Dad bailed them out, illegally using his employees' pension money.
     
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  7. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  8. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well it's been seven centuries since the English last invaded Wales.
     
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  9. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What teams that succeed in retaining their Prem status earn is irrelevant. As a Prem club they're also earning much of those monies. Upon entering the Prem they've Earned a severance for FAILING to retain their Prem status. They then receive monies that neither any club in the Prem or Championship get. They're guaranteed to get them (currently) based on a qualifying factor and (lack) of performance measure. It is only awarded upon FAILURE and is not awarded to anyone in the Prem or the league they're moving down to. Whatever you want to call it or however you want to frame it ... it is a monetary payout for failing to meet the standard of a Prem team in a given year, period.

    Parachute payments are something of value that other teams that had more success on the field don't get ... Even finishing last in the Prem reflects having had more success on the field (and how they get put into potential parachute payment pool) than others. When in the Championship many times they're getting significant monies other Champ sides aren't despite not performing as well.

    Being less valuable than a normal Prem payout is irrelevant ... they're not in the Prem any longer. They get these monies as Championship sides and aren't privy to the Prem payout any longer.
     
  10. Chesco United

    Chesco United Member+

    DC United
    Jun 24, 2001
    Chester County, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Good to see Norwich City getting a win today.
     
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  11. AlbertCamus

    AlbertCamus Member+

    Colorado Rapids
    Sep 2, 2005
    Colorado, USA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    troll, lol.
     
  12. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    The joys of memory...

    Maxwell didn't buy Derby until 1987. It's not thought that he specifically used the pension money for football, but it would no doubt have aided his ability to spend.

    In 1983 he announced plans to merge Oxford and Reading, with a new stadiums in Didcot. Regardless of what he announced, it's inevitable that he'd have just sold off Elm Park and kept the money, with the new club just staying in Oxford. It was very close to happening.

    His death was announced shortly before Reading played an evening match. It's safe to say there wasn't a minute's silence in his memory.
     
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  13. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh yeah. It all sort of fades into one.

    I was in the Mirror journalists' pub the day they found out they had no pensions, The White Hart on Fetter Lane. I don't remember much about it. I believe it's now a Pizza Express.
     
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  14. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I used to read the Daily Mirror back then, and it was quite funny how fast the paper changed from the gushing tributes to a rather different opinion.


    As for pro/rel, there's been a lot of focus on the Championship being a financial clusterf@@@ due to owners treating clubs as an investment, and 'speculating to accumulate', with them doing a bit too much of the former, and not much of the latter.

    I think it's fair to say Reading's latest owner would fall into the "benevolent imbecile" category - doing some really good things, like building a new top-class training ground, and being willing to spend where it is felt necessary, yet having no clue at all about how to actually run a club (his previous two clubs both folded).

    Our CEO actually has this line on his LinkedIn page...

    Competent user of Microsoft Office applications

    Does anyone beyond office junior level list that as a plus? And I note he's not even good at them, just competent.

    Maybe it was him who sanctioned the club's statement of stripping Liam Moore of the club captaincy today, stating, among other things...

    "Our club, together with its manager, is intent on selecting players in the first team squad who are dedicated to giving their absolute all to Reading Football Club. That starts with our captain. As a result, Moore will no longer be given the honour of our club captaincy."

    Basically, airing some very dirty laundry in public, pretty much accusing him of refusing to play for the team.

    Netflix should have done a series this year about the club. It would have made brilliant TV.
     
  15. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I miss the Convey, Hahnemann days
     
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  16. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    They were a different world. Sadly the chairman at the time had a lot of his money tied up in property deal in Reading town centre, and with the 2008 crash, he lost a fortune.

    He sold the club to a Russian, who it turned out didn't have the money he claimed to have, and when the club went up, he saddled the club with some expensive (but not that great) players. The Russian then pulled out of the deal when a 2nd £25 million payment was due to be paid, so he had to find other owner quickly.

    He found a Thai consortium, but it seems the people with the real money behind it were really only interesting in turning the sizeable car park into a property investment. They still own the car park, but sold the club to the current Chinese owner, who still hasn't said a word in nearly five years since taking over. He now owns the stadium, after buying it from the club to try to avoid FFP restrictions.

    With the club having very high levels of debt, and no longer having any obvious assets beyond the playing staff, it's difficult to envisage a rosy future, unless some incredibly rich person decides he wants to buy the club and write off the debt.
     
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  17. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That sucks big butts ... They're one of the first clubs I started following when I finally got regular access to soccer over there (the year they lost in the playoffs ... He's first year there I think). Then Convey signed and it was just awesome.
     
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  18. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Sadly the only records Reading are breaking these days* are to do with wage deficits - 225% of turnover, which wouldn't be quite so bad if the team was half-decent.

    Given that the owner's previous two clubs folded, and he owns the land for the training ground and the stadium, I would say the chances of him deciding to cut his losses are worryingly likely.

    * there was also the worst FA Cup result in the club's history the previous Saturday, followed in the next game by the heaviest ever home league defeat three days later.
     
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  19. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not of more value. A parachute payment is of less value than a prem payout.

    A #1 draft pick is of more value then every other pick in the draft.

    You seem to be switching around the "how" and "When". "How" you qualify to be illegible for a parachute payment is by being in the prem. You can't get a parachute payment if you aren't first in the premier league. Basically you are guaranteed an extra year of prem revenue when you are promoted. And this is done to soften the blow of relegation, which seems to be the major attack for those against pro/rel.

    If the prem wanted to they could eliminate parachute payments which would in turn increase the amount the clubs get every year.

    But instead the clubs decided to give up some of the money they get to help soften the blow for the relegated sides, and allow them to plan further in the future and hopefully put out more competitive sides because they continue to have guaranteed revenue going forwards even if they are relegated. BUT this is NOT rewarding failure because the club that finishes 17th gets even more.

    The #1 draft pick is rewarding failure. We can debate whether teams play for the #1 pick or not (I shared my opinion on an earlier post) but the #1 draft pick is very valuable and is "earned" by being the worst team. Those are the facts.
     
  20. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Potentially of more value. Aren't there as many flops as successes?
     
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  21. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Under that logic everything is only potentially more valuable until we see the end result. Including actual cold hard cash.

    In reality the #1 draft pick is of greater value. There is a pretty strong correlation between where players are drafted and their success. It's not one to one and there have been some pretty famous busts, Ryan Leaf is still a curse word in San Diego for instance, but with a large enough sample size it's there. I apologize that I don't have the time to look it up now but 538 usually does something around the time of the draft in this regard.

    But I am assuming you had your tongue firmly in your cheek because any GM in the league would laugh pretty hard if you argued that. They literally have tables that list the value of each pick, and you can guess which one has the most. If you want to say "potential value" okay but then the parachute payments or any payments are only of "potential value" as well. I mean look at what Everton and Man U have done with their money :)
     
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  22. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They aren't entitled to the Prem payout though. They receive that for every year they are in the Prem. The parachute payment is literally money that nobody else is getting (save the other relegated clubs).

    Those payments are value that Championship clubs aren't getting.


    Yes, you're guaranteed a payout upon FAILING to retain your Prem status. You get ALL other Prem monies for each season you retain that status. When you FAIL to do so, you're still given substantial monies over what the clubs in the league you're moving to get.

    You're trying to inject the "how" to erase the why and when ...

    Well, that's just like using your draft pick though ... you either are smart and pick well (spend well) or you blow it. In either case, you're getting an extreme VALUE for having FAILED the previous season.

    What the Prem clubs get is irrelevant as these clubs aren't in the Prem! As Prem sides they got it. As Championship sides they aren't entitled to it. Instead, they STILL get paid substantial monies despite having FAILED to maintain as a Prem club.

    Those are the facts.
     
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  23. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They are entitled to what ever money they have been promised upon REACHING the premier league. Currently a team that is promoted is guaranteed an extra year of income on top of what they earn for being in the league.

    They are entitled to it because they played in the prem during the current contract.
     
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  24. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    2-3 years.

    55% of TV money the year after they were relegated, 45% the year after that, plus 20% the year after that if they stayed in the EPL for more than one season.
     
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  25. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    #33425 M, Jan 20, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2022
    Those are percentages of the fixed portion of the TV money, which is 50% of the total TV money. The other 50% is split equally between merit payments and facility fees if your game is televised. So a season's worth of extra money is probably a reasonable estimate when taking into account merit payments and facility fees a lower-level non-relegated team would get.
     

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