The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. BOSNAINTER

    BOSNAINTER Member

    krajina
    Bosnia and Herzegovina
    Feb 17, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    Bosnia-Herzegovina
    lol it just that now nfl. they can not even convincingly loose back to loosing draw board tactics
     
  2. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    BINGO ... anyone questioning coaches/players in this regard is just ... yeah, fill in the blank.

    Even more so, the field is watered down as it it. It's the CHAMPION's LEAGUE ... yet we get teams that finish 19pts or 33pts off their own league title getting in (Chelsea in this year's GS and last year's GS or Gladback in last year's).

    So a club that finishes 33pts off their league's title winners deserves to be in a CHAMPIONS league?

    K
     
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  3. BOSNAINTER

    BOSNAINTER Member

    krajina
    Bosnia and Herzegovina
    Feb 17, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    Bosnia-Herzegovina
    it is single table not a have loosing record and still be in play off lol. champions league get you for winning and getting into top 4. not getting in one division where everybody has loosing record
     
  4. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You didn't answer the question.
    You think a club that finishes 33pts off their own league title deserves to be in a CHAMPION'S League?
    LOL
     
  5. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    #32705 M, Nov 17, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2021
    Good point. I presume the argument is that the title "Champions League" is inaccurate given that teams from the strongest nations have four participants. Of course, the amount of teams a country gets is based on UEFA coefficients formed by weighted performances by each country over the last five seasons so that the competition has a high probability of having the best teams in it.

    And finishing fourth in a strong league is a little different than having half or more teams in a league qualify for a playoff. So, great, the competition name is somewhat incorrect. But it's classic "whataboutism" to compare it to the oversized playoffs that are a feature of US closed leagues.
     
  6. BOSNAINTER

    BOSNAINTER Member

    krajina
    Bosnia and Herzegovina
    Feb 17, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    Bosnia-Herzegovina
    does a team basicly has negative wins to other play off teams deserve play off spot. this is single table ad only 20% of teams make cl and only 30% make europe in general if we compare it to play off system
     
  7. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You still didn't answer the question.
    You think a club that finishes 33pts off their own league title deserves to be in a CHAMPION'S League?

    Perspective:
    33pts = at minimum 11 games off the champion of their league. Yet, they still got a chance to win the highest level of club competition that exists.
    Least year win Washington got in with a 7-9 record (by winning their division) they were only ONE game behind the last playoff team. Only ONE team that didn't make the playoffs had a better record than them (and they were 8-8). They finished 6 games off the best team in the NFC with a .438 win%

    BUT when Freiburg qualifies for Europe at .500 (and 34pts off the champions) or Dortumund does it with a losing record .... nobody cares.

    Let's not even get into cup winning sides that have losing records that qualify for Europe (which is essentially how Washington got in with a losing record, they won their division).

    One is just fined and cool .... the other isn't. Why is that?
     
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  8. BOSNAINTER

    BOSNAINTER Member

    krajina
    Bosnia and Herzegovina
    Feb 17, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    Bosnia-Herzegovina
    i just told you 30% of teams make play offs and not even in league they get a privilage to play in totaly different tournament with diferent teams then the ones they compete in saturday and sunday compared that to leagues where 50% of teams make it in which they don;t actualy compare wins and looses but standings in group and play same team every year
     
    M repped this.
  9. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know how it works ... all you told me was, nothing. You STILL haven't answered the question and avoided the new one I posed to you.

    You're just like M, except insanely harder to discern in regard to what's typed.
     
  10. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    #32710 M, Nov 18, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021
    Even in leagues with four entrants in the CL, the percentage is 22.2% or less for the CL. Compare and contrast to the 50% or more that we see in US closed leagues.

    Honestly, you're wasting your time trying to discuss anything with that particular poster.
     
  11. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Honestly sounds like your biggest issue is with the name. At the end of the day teams still qualify based on how they do not on the size of their population or the corporate footprint of their area.
     
  12. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Except that the rankings are set up so that more clubs in the biggest TV markets qualify for the tournament proper.
     
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  13. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    If the sticking point is the word champions, then a team that comes second on goals scored doesn't deserve to be in it.

    If it's a question of quality, then sadly, with the way football is today, even a team 33 points adrift in a major league is likely to be better than a fair number of actual champions from weaker nations that also make the group stage.
     
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  14. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    No, they're not.
     
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  15. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Which is how teams make the playoffs ... It's a joke for American sports though ...

    Sure, and I agree
    Though if someone is going to call one league (or whole country's sports) on it, then they need to apply the principle to soccer as well. A 9-7/8-8 division winner in the NFL getting in the playoffs is no different than the Champions of Serbia getting in the CL or an English/German club 33pts off the league title getting in.

    Except for the fact they get more games on tv/money (in the EPL anyway) and uh yeah, the coefficient favors higher profile leagues/clubs

    Them pesky facts
     
  16. BOSNAINTER

    BOSNAINTER Member

    krajina
    Bosnia and Herzegovina
    Feb 17, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    Bosnia-Herzegovina
    a leas it is single table pro/rel i know people here are used to their team being in top division even if they loose 0-16 or 40-62 or50-112 but still to me it is really boring to watch every week team and sports that just suck now mls same thing i mean just like epl make them self most competative football league off course it is not leastt competative leagues are epl and mls. epl for just how many points separate 1-4 at end of season and mls because 50% of teams get in too loose 1 game
     
  17. Chesco United

    Chesco United Member+

    DC United
    Jun 24, 2001
    Chester County, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    At my first college, I hung out with a lot of European students in 1996. They were unanimous in saying the addition of non-champion teams was a grievous mistake.
     
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  18. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    That was my opinion 25 years ago too. It no longer is.
     
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  19. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I like single tables and pro/rel and would love it if someday soccer became broadly popular and stable enough here to have it.

    That said--casual Werder Bremen fan speaking here--the thrill of watching your shitty team suck in a lower division against lesser competition is overrated, IMHO.
     
  20. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    It's not really the same. One is letting in average clubs who lose as many as they win, while even in Borussia Meonchengladbach's case, they won 20 and lost 9.

    Compared to the possibly of being stuck in that lower division forever, or not existing at all, it's not that bad though.

    In truth, being crap in any division is pretty miserable. I recall in th early years of Danny Baker's 606 phone-in, one of his suggested subjects was "It's only September, but you already know you're going down"


    One of the strange things in football here at the moment is the growth in both fans seemingly interested in only the biggest clubs, and also the growth in crowds at non-league level. Notts County drew nearly 13,000 at the weekend in the conference, and on Saturday I went to a game in the 10th tier and the crowd was approaching 700, and it's fair to say Hallam FC's glory days are a long way behind them - about 160 years to be precise.
     
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  21. AlbertCamus

    AlbertCamus Member+

    Colorado Rapids
    Sep 2, 2005
    Colorado, USA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    I've seen the ticket prices in the EPL have had the thought that if I ever lived there, I'd have my big 6 team to root for, and maybe go a couple of times a season, but would go on a more regular basis to a local minor league team that's affordable. One good thing about MLS in the USA is that it is really affordable.
     
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  22. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's happened at least three times over the last 7 seasons.

    Moenchengladbach 2015/16 (17 wins, 13 losses), Chelsea 2019/20 (20 wins, 12 losses) and Nice in 2015/16 (18 wins, 11 losses).

    It's weird that they all finished exactly 33 points behind the winners, as there's nothing else close in the top 5 leagues since 2014/15. They should play the lottery.
     
  23. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In 2004/05 Liverpool qualified for the Champions League with a 17-14 win-loss record finishing 37 points behind Chelsea, with the same number of points as Bolton Wanderers.

    In fact they were 12 points closer to the drop zone than to Chelsea.
     
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  24. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
  25. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    And in fact they still had a winning record. And in fact entered at the first round of qualifying unlike Chelsea's group stage entry. Meanwhile in 2020 a team with a 7-13 W-L record qualified for MLS's playoffs, as did another with an 8-9 record. And this season a 14-14 team did.
     

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