The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    It makes perfect sense: there aren’t consequences to the ownership group, they’re consequences to the coach and possibly the GM (although rarely). Peons, fall guys.

    The owner of the Fire or the Quakes or FC Cincinnati does not have to worry about playing “in Chattanooga in a stadium of 4,000 people on a crappy field with no fans.” He will rest easy knowing he’s got a few seasons before he loses the fan base. And since they’re guaranteed D1, all they have to do is string together some winning seasons to get the crowds back. Or not, why does it matter really with revenue sharing?
     
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  2. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Firstly, failed coaches and sporting directors manage to get jobs again and again despite repeated failures all over the world. Take Mourinho or Ranieri.

    Owen Coyle's win % in British football since leaving Burnley is
    Bolton 33.3
    Wigan 30.4
    Blackburn 29.7
    Ross County 18.2

    Russell Slade is an English lower division manager who has had success at a couple of clubs but since getting sacked by Leyton Orient his win % is:
    Cardiff 37.2
    Charlton 23.8
    Coventry 18.8
    Grimsby 25.6
    Hereford 21.7

    But he keeps getting jobs. They're just random examples of what is called the lower division "managerial merry-go-round".

    You'll find the same thing in Italy, France, Spain, Mexico, Holland and just about anywhere else.

    Secondly, coaches and sporting directors get paid by their teams, not by MLS.
     
  3. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    But not the bottom picks.

    So what you are saying is that the NHL needs to reward failure with "better draft choices" so that the ineptly run teams aren't quite as hopeless. Yeah for closed leagues!
     
  4. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    But this sounds like these aren’t really consequences because any other business that squandered their privileged position would go out of business.

    It seems like these consequences are easily fixed by stopping the mismanagement. In any league in any sport anywhere you see interest wane for chronically bad teams. They should: it’s an entertainment business. In other countries, however, there’s a financial incentive to improve.
     
    M repped this.
  5. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Houston and Fire will be under pressure... from the other owners.
     
  6. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    What leverage do the other owners have? I’m sure every billionaire has skeletons in the closet, but I don’t know that they’re going to be Dell Loy Hansen sized skeletons.
     
  7. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Also you’re asking Hunt, Kroenke, Kraft, et al to come down on other owners?
     
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  8. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You completely missed the mark.....again. The sabres aren't playing for "better Draft Picks." They just suck. They're not tanking. They're kist f'n bad.

    And yet, nearly 10 years on.....hasn't been fixed despite multiple head coach and FO staff changes.

    Poor attendance, lower gameday revenues ARE consequences of poor performance though.
     
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  9. Phenix

    Phenix Member+

    D.C. United
    Oct 5, 2019
    #32359 Phenix, Oct 13, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
    Owners, investors aren't really responsible for who should be playing at right-back, that's for the coaches and technical/sporting directors who are their higher-ups to decide. Owners are the ones that balance the checkbooks. Sorry if this is new information to you.

    Strawman alert. Lol, since when is this all about you guys or any small market in flyover country?

    Stop playing the persecution card, no one's buying it.

    Garber is mostly right, except you guys average 2,000 people per home match, I'm sure you paid attention to my NISA team attendance posts.

    He was honest, straightforward and speaking his mind when he said "if you're investing billions and billions of dollars, which we are now at about $3.5 BILLION invested in MLS in twenty years, to build something in Kansas City and they have a shitty season, to think they might be playing in Chattanooga in a stadium of 4,000 people on a crappy field with no fans."

    Yes it would be a bad investment. Yes it's not financially viable to relegate MLS teams to the minors. Why ruin your own investment? How would you legally give Nashville SC owners half a billion dollars back they already invested in club infrastructure such as a new soccer stadium and training complex to roster building?

    1) Instead of an unforgivable sin of *gasp a LOSING season why don't reshape their roster with new players and coaches that can compete for championships next season? Why demote them to minor leagues?

    Did you want to demote the Cubs to Triple-A baseball because they couldn't win a World Series for 100-something years?

    2) So realistically, how many teams in the Premier League, La Liga, Serie A and Bundesliga can win the league? Five? Six? How many can place into UCL slots? Man City, Liverpool, Man United, Chelsea? Oh wow such competitive balance there. The rest is just fodder that compete for concession placings while their best players move to those better teams I've mentioned above.

    3) There are depleted attendance numbers in some cases, like Newcastle. St James Park has 52,000 capacity and they don't sell out every match there, especially under Mike Ashley. Russia and China which has similar geography size and population to the United States, their top division leagues attendance isn't higher than MLS, despite soccer probably being the second most popular sport in Russia behind hockey.
     
  10. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    There was no mention by me of the Sabres in that post. Nor of tanking. So you not only missed the mark, you weren’t even on the same planet as it.

    And yet, nearly ten years on... they're still cluttering up the NHL with their abject failure. Yeah for closed leagues!
     
  11. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member

    Money Grab FC
    Apr 26, 2012
    https://www.angelsonparade.com/2015...0-million-expansion-fee-in-full-up-front-2018

    Garber: The LAFC owners wrote a $110 million check upon closing. And that money is distributed to the MLS owners in payment for the dilution of their interest in MLS.

    I'd like to believe you, but, Imma go with the Don on this one...
     
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  12. Phenix

    Phenix Member+

    D.C. United
    Oct 5, 2019
    Yeah, Nashville SC like LAFC paid an expansion fee thus reducing the remaining shares of ownership by 1/27th, 27 meaning the number of MLS teams. That's not a cash windfall. Professional sports isn't a profitable venture.
     
  13. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Not really. They still get games on national tv, major league media exposure, and get to host Toronto, Rangers, and Bruins how many times a year? And I haven’t looked it up, but I am sure NHL also does some sort of revenue sharing as well. Not much consequence, honestly.
     
    M repped this.
  14. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    If it’s not at all profitable, why should dilution of shares be an issue?
     
  15. Phenix

    Phenix Member+

    D.C. United
    Oct 5, 2019
    There's an issue?
     
  16. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member

    Money Grab FC
    Apr 26, 2012
    The soccer isn't profitable, other than providing a vehicle to shakedown local governments for real estate deals. It's the shares in SUM that are profitable.

    But SUM does a bit more than those other leagues. SUM handles all the television rights for not just MLS but all soccer in America. That means if a soccer game happens and is broadcast on national television in the United States, SUM gets a cut. All those friendlies featuring touring European clubs that happen every summer? MLS owners get a cut of that. Whenever Mexico plays a friendly in America, SUM gets a cut of that. Whenever the United States hosts the Gold Cup, SUM gets a piece of that action. SUM also has broadcasting rights for the national teams. Every time the USMNT, USWNT, or one of the youth teams has a game on TV, these MLS owners split the pot. World Cup qualifiers? SUM collects a check. This is way greater than the money MLS puts in. Essentially, SUM and its investors benefit from the entirety of American soccer, which makes the investment into MLS appealing.

    https://www.starsandstripesfc.com/2...jor-league-soccer-marketing-usa-mexico-canada

    The MLS team is the toaster you'd get for opening a new checking account...
     
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  17. Phenix

    Phenix Member+

    D.C. United
    Oct 5, 2019
    Time to regurgitate the SUM topic for I don't know, like a 115th time...
     
  18. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    And correctly, for the like 115th time.
     
  19. Phenix

    Phenix Member+

    D.C. United
    Oct 5, 2019
    Actually I was way off, that was the ~610th.
     
  20. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Owners, investors are responsible for their company. Period. You don’t have to micromanage hiring Mike in accounts/receivables, but if accounts/receivables’ mistakes are massively affecting the bottom line, the owner’s probably getting involved.
    That’s not a strawman. That is a verbatim quote from the commissioner of MLS on the subject of relegation.
    Again, his words.
    Which is a hell of a lot more than “no fans”. He’s also not remotely right. He’s imagining some scenario where SKC is magically transported to D3 (non-league when he said that) in some system where pro/rel kept the lower divisions exactly the same as they are now. You’d almost think his statement was made in bad faith!
    Maybe the problem is considering the lower divisions some kind of death sentence rather than wondering why you might think that.
    Now where’s the strawman? When did I say to force it on MLS? I mean, I have been pretty clear that I think that ship has sailed unless MLS is compelled to financially.
    The problem isn’t one season. Look at the Browns, Jets, or Lions. Within one post of this is discussing the decade long ineptitude of the Sabres.
    Strawman!
    I see why you do this, although it seems like a lot of projection when you do.
    1) you don’t get relegated for not winning a championship 2) If AAA was an independent league with teams in Louisville and Nashville why not?
    Strawman! Pray tell, what does this have to do with pro/rel?
    Newcastle alienated their fans under terrible ownership, why are you mentioning them?

    The KHL averages less than 7,000/game, way less than half of the NHL, which is, what, the third most popular league in the country? COULD THIS BE ANOTHER STRAWMAN?!?
     
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  21. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Actually....What the Don said is exactly what Paul was explaining to you.......The expansion fee is distributed to the owners in payment for the dilution of their share in MLS....

    Yeah...except SUM does NOT control all Soccer rights and activities in the US. When La Liga, the Bundesliga, and the EPL are broadcast on National TV in the US, SUM does NOT get a cut....

    https://www.releventsportsgroup.com/ also holds rights to hosting events and also negotiating deals for broadcasts.

    IMG also negotiates and holds rights to broadcasts and events in the US.
     
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  22. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    I kind of feel this whole thing is belabored: the expansion fees go to the owners. Realistically, it should recoup some of their capital investment or spur new capital investment, but it’s ultimately at the discretion of the owners what they do with it.
     
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  23. Phenix

    Phenix Member+

    D.C. United
    Oct 5, 2019
    Efficient owners make strategical decisions, if they don't think the coaches, technical directors, general managers can perform to the best of their abilities they get fired. Owners, even bad ones, come and go, they sell their teams, but at least Newcastle fans doesn't care at who balance the checks just as there is $250m in new investment per season amirite?

    Nope.

    Your words...

    Go see how Sunderland face consecutive relegations and how that affect sponsorship and gate revenue. Ownership changed three times.

    Yippie, your team is in EFL league hell with no Middle East or Russian billionaire that's going to dump money in someplace not named London, Manchester, Liverpool or now Newcastle upon Tyne.

    Also the words can be interchangeable to mean any MLS team to D2, D3 or vise versa.

    It's a bad investment. Period. If you start a professional soccer league now in Asia or Europe it wouldn't have pro/rel.

    The solutions for those heavily followed teams in big market cities is to relegate them in minor leagues? What?

    I like how you reverse what I said just so you might think you sound smart or something. I'm not the one with a major chip on his shoulder because of what Garber said a couple of years back.

    Think you might know why...

    Ok, so I got that mixed up. Still while soccer is the most popular sport there, it doesn't get MLS numbers. FC Tambov folded.
     
  24. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not asking anything. I'm expecting the owners that have pumped $100s of millions into the sport to hold other teams accountable for contributing to the success of the league. I think Hunt, Kroenke, Kraft and Anschutz to be beyond accountability because the league was built upon their backs but I do expect pressure to be put on other under- performing owners.

    I think we've seen major changes at Chicago, DC United and San Jose following pressure from the league, also Vancouver seem to be trying but they've got other issues.

    I think Colorado and New England's renaissance is more down to good appointments than changes in strategy. New England have MLS's most successful manager and Colorado have put together a hell of a competitive roster.
     
  25. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    So correctly for "~610th time" then...
     

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