The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do you mean the Washington Spirit? Despite the shared name when they were founded, they aren’t associated with DCU.
     
  2. BOSNAINTER

    BOSNAINTER Member

    krajina
    Bosnia and Herzegovina
    Feb 17, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    Bosnia-Herzegovina
    reading this if there is a league where pro/rel would not impact clubs financialy is usa. youhave salary cap you have sadiums where people should still watch have culture where people go to sytadium for fun not competition sorry but to me that is closed competition leagues mlb nfl nba. taking and adapting soccer culture from europe tifosi. having pro/rel does not have that much of impact in usa when it comes financialy or competative or fan wise like in europe
     
  3. Phenix

    Phenix Member+

    D.C. United
    Oct 5, 2019
    It can be applied in 2021 with Toronto, or 5-10 years from now with team #31 and #32...

    Does this extend to boycotting next years World Cup?

    You root for the players, the front office comes and goes.

    :rolleyes:
     
  4. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In 2017 Toronto won the Supporters Shield by 12 points while LA Galaxy and DC United shared the wooden spoon.

    This season Toronto have won 3 out of 23 games and are clear favorites to cradle the ladle and they haven't really done anything wrong. They have the second highest payroll, with 3 decent DPs but their manager leaving, combined with injuries and being unable to play in Canada for most of the season has really hurt them.

    Meanwhile Colorado are proving again how in MLS you can turn seemingly endless crapness around, while FC Dallas are skirting the relegation zone because of their insistence on fielding home grown players.

    If you're going to have relegation from MLS you'd have to change the salary mechanism to give teams like Galaxy and Toronto the chance to buy their way out of trouble and I think you'd have to do what Argentina and Mexico did and have relegation decided over multiple seasons. Otherwise a CCL runner-up can suddenly become chump change.

    As for Houston and Vancouver, I think they'll be under pressure from Garber to turn things around. I mean Portland just ended Vancouver's 10 game unbeaten run while I think Houston have new investors.
     
  5. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think he means Vancouver.
     
  6. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well if thew CPL continues to grow, and the three MLS Canadian teams continue to NOT develop & play Canadian talent, a few of our friendly Canadian posters say the CSA will not renew those teams sanctioning to play in MLS. So those teams crapiness may in fact get them relegated, hell those teams may even be added to the long list of US Closed League teams folding.....
     
  7. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    I heard FIFA is going to ban MLS because TFC's Twitter account blocked some obnoxious person.
     
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  8. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nothing bout the closed league model prohibits a club/team from doing "in return" for the fans. Absolutely nothing. There are terrible owners in pro/rel leagues that do "nothing in return" and they aren't all "punished" or fall down the divisional ladder. Arsenal says hi ...

    Birmingham City has been shit for five years ... not relegated though, and the fans aren't showing up. The fans dropped off by a 20% rate when the fell from the Prem and sit at just over 10K now (of just over 25K max).

    How many people do you think would be showing up in Vancouver if they'd dropped from MLS and then proceeded to be at the bottom of the 2nd division five years running? I'd bet it is less than the 19K they've averaged for their TWO home matches in the last 18+ months ...

    There are perennially bad teams in other sports that draw quite well. Football (pro) wasn't popular for a hell of a long time (not really and not at all comparatively to college/hs). The sport's popularity here sees abysmal teams drawing as many/substantially more than all but the top of the top teams in any pro/rel sport.

    But, we see that folks don't give a shit unless it's TOP TIER. Austin got an MLS club (already having a USL club) and it's SAD how those players have to try and put on a professional effort in front of as many folks as we had at my 8yr old's match this weekend. BUT, slap an MLS club there and POOOOOOOF .... all of a sudden Austin has tens of thousands of soccer fans ... WEIRD EH?

    There is a major/minor mindset in this country, period. That is the sporting culture that has been cultivated here, period. SOOOOOOO many people want to paint soccer as different but it isn't. The most popular sport in this country has STARK differences in interest when other leagues pop up despite this country consuming football in multiple forms in exorbitant amounts.

    Dangling the, ultimately fruitless for the vast majority, carrot of promotion is going to somehow change this thinking? It's the nature of fans to not care the worse your team is (whether being perennially shit or falling down a laddered leagues structure). In England where the absolute tip top of this model and structure goes we see fans knock off in droves upon relegation .... but you want to sell me down the river that somehow, someway interest HERE, where domestic soccer popularity is barely cracking the top ten of sporting endeavors, would see a monumental shift simply because "could" enters the equation?

    NOPE

    Vancouver has also finished third overall in the league and made the CCL semis in the last decade.
    DCU has also finished third overall twice and won a USOC
    San Jose has also won a supporter's shield

    ... the CAN is absolutely there
     
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  9. BOSNAINTER

    BOSNAINTER Member

    krajina
    Bosnia and Herzegovina
    Feb 17, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    Bosnia-Herzegovina
    america is different people here value looser just look at browns and other teams. most people go to stadiums to do tiffo and for day out they would do that in second division to. in europe is competition more important then good day out at stadium. america is different in that regard most of time people go to stadium for n=beer good day out to chit chat even at mls they do not go for do orr die games at all
     
  10. BOSNAINTER

    BOSNAINTER Member

    krajina
    Bosnia and Herzegovina
    Feb 17, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    Bosnia-Herzegovina
    How many people do you think would be showing up in Vancouver if they'd dropped from MLS and then proceeded to be at the bottom of the 2nd division five years running? I'd bet it is less than the 19K they've averaged for their TWO home matches in the last 18+ months ...

    now ask your self how many people would be showing if promoted club comes to mls as well
     
  11. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Two sides of St Andrews are currently shut due to finding structural problems. Those two sides held around 15000.

    In 2019/20 they averaged 20,412 which is really pretty good considering how poor they'd been for several years.
     
  12. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Known since December 2020 so some serious incompetence and a lot of pissed off season ticket holders.
     
  13. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    aaaaaand Napoli's owner now has a 10b Euro Super League proposal in the works ... Yes, based on performance in national leagues BUT comments he made talk about the top leagues being too big and need to be trimmed.

    It's odd seeing how he talked about not enough prize money for the top clubs to keep competing and being in the CL/EL yet the "democratic" proposal seems as though it'd just take the current set up and pump it on steroids (gaining entry to new super league/trimming down top leagues)
     
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  14. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here's a link to what HTTK mentions above:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...ster-proposing-radical-football-shake-up.html

    https://www.otbsports.com/sport/nap...-new-e10billion-super-league-proposal-1252235

    He's a smart man. He's little crazy, but he's smart. IMO he's not wrong. I also don't believe that UEFA and all of its members would be open to such ideas. They tend to cling to the past, and how things have always been done. It'll be interesting to watch and see what his proposal contains.
     
  15. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    It's repeating the ridiculous idea that top clubs are losing money because the current tournaments don't bring in enough revenue.

    It's a mix of wildly irresponsible owners presented with a system that has, for the past 20-30 years at least, allowed a chunk of debt to be paid off with each tv revenue hike every 3-4 years. What would happen in the event of such big rises ending wasn't considered.


    What I do find a bit depressing is hearing 'modern fans' talk about Barcelona having to let Messi go, etc. I feel they really do want a permanent elite who always challenge. They may be dead against the idea of their favourite Liverpool / Man Utd / Arsenal / Chelsea etc leaving domestic leagues, but they don't want leagues where those clubs aren't permanent challengers.
     
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  16. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Probably around the 5,000 who watched their predecessors in USL.
     
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  17. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You could actually look at the "promoted" teams to see what their lower division attendances were like. This is an approximation, attendances inevitably increased when they won an expansion slot and of course some teams played in multiple stadiums.

    Timbers 6,000
    Whitecaps/86ers 5,000
    Montreal 10,000
    Sounders 3,000
    Orlando 7,000
    Minnesota 8,000
    Cincinnati 20,000+

    Cincinnati of course still had that new car smell, as did Orlando to an extent.
     
  18. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In just over a quarter century, MLS has had 14 different champions, and three other clubs have been finalists.

    La Liga have had 9 champions in nearly a century.
     
  19. BOSNAINTER

    BOSNAINTER Member

    krajina
    Bosnia and Herzegovina
    Feb 17, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    Bosnia-Herzegovina
    and what league is taken more seriously la liga or mls. off course la liga people want to see competition not sunday league in sense of competition. it is like we win or not it is ok we GAVE OUR BEST next year when we get players we will be better or draft. there is no such thing well mnothing is working this year for us but we gave our best. it very likely that if nothing is working for you and you gave your best you are last and in second divission there is no next year if you get the players you will be better. so in europe is like that there is no planning for 2-3-4 years ahead because injuries and unforeseen circumstances can happen so you might be relegated
     
  20. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That has nothing to do with my point though.
     
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  21. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    There is planning of sorts. Youth academies are part of that, and I'm sure most managers, if they survive more than two years and start to feel secure, start looking further ahead.

    Owners do seem to be getting more trigger-happy though, not helped by a media that likes to portray "sacking the manager" as the solution to any disappointing season, regardless of circumstances.
     
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  22. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    This is a little disingenuous: the league is twice the size it was during the first half of its existence and is designed to promote parity. Even with that, 2 teams won half the MLS cups in the last 10 years.
     
  23. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    MLS is the more interesting league for me by far regardless of what Euro sniffers think of it.
     
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  24. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So, Seattle won twice, the Galaxy won three times, and five other clubs won the other five. One of them winning their first and so far only title in over a decade of existence.

    I mean, that's not exactly Bayern Munich-vs-the-rest-of-the Bundesliga level there, is it?
     
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  25. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    No, but that’s not the argument. The turn of phrase is “any team could win the MLS Cup every year” and that’s simply not true. Yes, absolutely there is a much larger pool of teams that can win the championship, but there are absolutely upper and lower classes.

    And I want to be clear, I personally favor some of the things that give MLS more potential champions: playoffs, salary caps, etc. but let’s not overboil the distinction. MLS is designed to have more parity than European leagues so comparing MLS to La Liga is like comparing the fuel economy of a Prius and a Dodge Challenger Hellcat. I mean, yes, the Prius obviously outperforms the Challenger in a category that Dodge was not remotely considering in its design.

    I guess what I am trying to say is that there are absolutely merits to the American system, but I don’t think fabricating myths like “any team could be the champion every year” is either truthful or particularly productive for bottom rung teams.
     
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