The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Indeed. I donot question the geographical issues for soccer in the USA. For a part however it is created by the closed shop, that limits the number of clubs in a given market to 1(?).
    The Italian baseball league isnot a great example of the issue though, as iirc most clubs arenot professional or are semi proclubs. Hence not really generating means for travelling around.
     
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  2. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    As are most US soccer clubs. Beyond MLS, there really aren't a lot of fully funded professional clubs. To say it's created by a closed shop is bit disengenuous as the closed shop was created in what was a soccer vacuum 24 years ago.
     
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  3. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    The preseason tourney is also a closed activity, and in the same way competes with ability of domestic clubs to earn more money in their own preseason matches. If, instead of playing Barca and BMunch and PSG in a supersportstarssoccer championship in July in the US, those teams could be visiting smaller clubs from their domestic leagues, and that would help smaller club gate revenue. A SuperLeague competes with a CL, but the CL has every opportunity to win that competition. Compeition does not mean the CL gets to continue winning, however. If because the mega clubs bolt, the CL fails to grow, or shrinks, and finds it's broadcast contracts vanishing, that's just competition. The mega clubs are not restricting the CL, or restricting the Eurovase, they're just choosing not to take part and to compete in a different competition. Now, while that tourney is not open to all, neither are the CL or Eurovase. As is noted in the book I suggested earlier, the sport groupings are legal, and while traditionally they are defined by geography they can be defined by other matters, as is the case with all professional leagues. If an SL creates a minimum wealth required for entrance, that would probably satisfy EU law.
    Your argument assumes you know what definition of competition the courts will side with. I don't know, but I don't think the evidence points to your definition, which rests on some clubs being disadvantaged because other clubs don't want to play CL games and create a global interest, making it a very rich competition.
    A quote from the above post: "EU law will continue to apply to sport, particularly as far as competition, freedom of movement and non-discrimination rules are concerned."
    That can be read in several different ways. It is far from as open and shut as you are insisting.
     
  4. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    I don’t think we could credibly predict right now. Covid’s impact, especially on lower leagues, is far from over.
    This definitely seems like NISA’s aim. The question will be the gamesmanship from USL, MLS, and NWSL.
    But in that case I would argue why bother? Just build a pyramid inside D3.
    I don’t think we need more levels. The business case for D3 seems hard enough to make.

    I just think opening up the financial standards to more alternatives than “rich person’s hobby” - even if just for D3 (and maybe lower divisions of the women’s game, as well) would open the door for a lot of clubs.
     
  5. The one point missing in your reasoning is the point I quoted a long time ago. EU laws arenot fixed and rigourous. For instance fundamental laws like freedom of movement and the right of freedom of contract have been set aside by lawmakers and approved by the European Supreme Court, because of a greater good involved. That greater good must be specified and restricted, so it cannot become a means to restrict a fundamental right in general.
    One case is particular of interest in this setting. It was about a business(man) that was part of a cooperation/association of businesses. He/it joined another cooperation, competing with the one he already was member of. So he was told he was out of the original one. He went to court all up to the European Supreme court, claiming it was a violation of his fundamental right of freedom of association. He obviously wanted to stay in his first association as it was profitable to him.
    He lost the case as it wasnot to be expected from the first association and it's members to tolerate a member who benefitted from their organisation while he was actively competing with them via another organisation.

    So from a business pov the case already has been settled and from the infringment of fundamental rights the European court already has sanctioned such matters under the banner of serving a greater cause with the restrictions I mentioned.
     
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  6. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In 1997 the A-League went from 7 teams to 24 teams virtually overnight. Is there something to learn from that?
     
  7. Clubs are waiting to pop up like mushrooms if the conditions are right?
     
  8. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Not sure what you're trying to prove here. Football League attendances in general declined significantly in the period you are showing.

    I'm sure there are casual fans that jump on the bandwagon when teams are successful, but another factor is that higher division teams - particularly those at the top level - have a lot more fans following them to away games.
     
  9. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    I see the normal culprit is being disingenuous once again.

    So still no example of a professional pro/rel league in the EU converting to being a closed league. Maybe there's one out there; it would be interesting to know.
     
  10. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    The greater good, in regard to sports, is really difficult to determine.
    This is a good example, if a breakaway move moves in that direction. The issue would be that it assumes domestic leagues will want to kick out the mega clubs, the same mega clubs upon which they rely for success today.
    Southhampton might not be happy with the super league, but they're much less happy with losing £120 million a year in revenue, and that money is not possible without the mega clubs. In fact, we know what those contracts would look like without the big six: They'd look like the contracts leagues outside of the big five.I realize that in a very public manner, the leagues are huffing and puffing, but the example of the Prem is illustrative: The prem executives in private were urging this path during the last year.
    If the RMad broadcast/streaming revenue numbers have any base in reality, there is a lot of money to spread around. As has been the case with everything invovling football for the past couple decades, whether or not an SL happens will come down to cash money. My argument is based around the notion that filthy lucre will win. Your argument relies on the non SL clubs being more interested in principle.
    The reality is probably on your side, until the SL raises the kitty to an acceptable level. To, again, quote an old joke punch line, if the SL clubs come back with a $10 a week revenue share, the other clubs, the leagues, the FAs will stand firm and tut loudly. But if the SL comes back with a lucrative offer, well, we've already established that top flight clubs ar prostitutes, now we're just haggling over price.
     
  11. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Given that what you're describing eventually rebranded itself as USL Championship and is charging $12 million expansion fees, I don't think this is the lesson you think it is.
     
  12. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Attendances crashed across the board in that period, it was a time when hooliganism was rife, football had become the home of 20-40 year old men, when I used to go to Stamford Bridge women and children were a rarity. In the 80's less than 20 million people attended league games (across all 4 divisions) now its around 33 million, the highest attendances were in the early 1950's when over 40 million people turned up to professional football every year.
     
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  13. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Bundesliga average attendance dropped to 18k020k in the mid 80s from 20k-28k in the 60s, and compared to 40k and up since 2008
     
  14. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Yes most 'other' European countries didn't have the 'football bug' quite like the English until later in the 20th Century.
     
  15. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It wasn't in 1997 and those teams that joined in 1997 probably didn't pay significant expansion fees.

    The lessons I was referring to was about how to enable such a huge and sudden expansion.
     
  16. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not sure whether hooliganism was the cause or the result of falling attendances.

    I think other sports suffered a from falling attendances in the 70s and 80s, not just soccer.
     
  17. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    I keep a log of every game I've been to. The number of games per season dropped precipitously from about 1977 onwards. I was on the periphery of several ugly hooligan incidents at games and decided it just wasn't worth the risk. For the next decade, the few games I went to were mainly at the non-league level.
     
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  18. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Like I said Stamford Bridge changed from the 70's into the eighties, people used to call my dad mad for taking me (a child at the time) to football, kids, women, ethnic minorities were not in attendance, hooliganism is what 'damaged' the attendances at English football in the 1980's, most certainly at Stamford Bridge. I went to Stamford Bridge when (because if hooligan instances) the terracing had to remain closed as a punishment. The low attendances are particularly telling when you realise how cheap football was at the time, £1.50 to stand in the shed.
     
  19. The interesting thing with the epl is that after Brexit the Uk doesnot have to conform to the EU laws and their Supreme Courts rulings.
    I've no clue about the UK concerning competition laws and rulings about cartels from before they became EU members and if these are revived again. Also have no clue about rulings made in matters like I described in the post you reacted to. So it will be interesting to see what happens there post Brexit.
    Also wonder if they feel the same about football pyramid as a cultural heritage to preserve.
    Also interesting is where the seat of the SL to be is going to be located and what consequences are derived from that choice.
     
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  20. Yup. It was the time of rising spending power and with that came more diversity in entertainment on offer. In the fifties- sixties in the south of Rotterdam in my neighbourhood you had a street/road that stretched for about 1.5 miles at the edge of a new set up park. That street was lined with an abundance of amateur soccerclubs. Each of them pulled on sundays on home matchdays 6000-8000 fans when they hosted a rival or a top amateur team. That number of fans dropped significantly when prosperity rose after the lean years just post World War II. It doesnot surprise the number of clubs dropped too.
     
  21. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Boring football destroyed attendances. This gave hooligans the opportunity to take control of the terraces. But attendances collapsed even in places where there was no significant hooligan problem.
     
  22. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The UK will have to conform to EU law if it wants a trade deal. Its also subject to ECHR rulings until it withdraws (and it shows no sign of withdrawing). It looks like BoJo is hoping for a Trump win to get a quick US trade deal enabling a no deal Brexit.
     
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  23. kinznk

    kinznk Member

    Feb 11, 2007
    A log of games attended. I wish I had done something like that. Thats pretty cool.
     
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  24. They can do within their borders what they like post Brexit I think.
    The moment a UK company crosses with trade the Channel, then it becomes a matter of complying to EU laws. So the UK can import all the chlorofied chicken meat from the US they like, but have to eat it themselves as it's impossible to export it to the EU.
     
  25. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Football wasn't 'boring', I know that hooliganism was happening at every level, from Manchester United to Maidstone United, hooliganism destroyed the attendances, the fact is that when hooliganism was rife attendances were low, hooliganism nearly killed Chelsea FC, Bates knew it, he tried taken the hooligans head on, he even had electric fencing! Though ultimately Fulham council wouldn't let him switch it on! I got trapped in quite a lot of trouble, nearly had my head smashed by a tube train strip light (as a 12 year old), trust me Stamford Bridge was nasty, of course it affected attendances!
     
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