The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So the mystique of pro/rel that we hear from many, many supporters is the idea that any team, including something like non-league Wealdstone, could one day become an EPL team, right?

    Of corure that hasn't happened in literally decades in England, and at this point the vast majority of the teams that have made it to the EPL have done so through significant investment.

    But it has happened somewhat recently in Germany. In 1999-2000 Hoffenheim were a fifth division local amateur side in a village of 3300 people. In 2017-18 and 2018-19 they played in the Champions League. How? A former youth player of theirs is Dietmar Hopp, who grew up in the village and after not becoming a professional soccer player went on to fond a little company called SAP. He's now, obviously, worth billions and over the course of more than 20+ years he's funneled money back to his boyhood club, and at this point has done it long enough that he got the Bundesliga to change their ownership rules so he could own the team outright.

    This is exactly what pro/rel supporters say is the ideal scenario that MLS doesn't allow. Which is why Dietmar Hopp and Hoffenheim are the face of "money ruining football" movement in Germany and are considered to have a lack of "tradition" and their fan base isn't real because their village is so small. At the end of February this year the Bayern-Hoffenheim game was stopped after derogatory banners featuring Hopp were unfurled by Bayern fans, and the same thing happened the next day at the Wolfburg-Union Berlin match.

    Seems like this is a case of saying one thing but actually supporting another. Only the "right" teams can be promoted and while its nice that the idea is out there that a little team can make it big, in reality the fans don't want that to happen.
     
  2. Chesco United

    Chesco United Member+

    DC United
    Jun 24, 2001
    Chester County, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    #26677 Chesco United, May 24, 2020
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
    There are matches on FS1 and FS2 in English. I watched Liga MX occasionally with a friend in high school, when Americans were playing in Mexico.
     
  3. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    I have been corrected on this, but FOX's rights are very limited.
     
  4. This is epl centric thinking, as we have seen several examples in the big leagues of clubs rising 3-4 levels to the top league.
     
  5. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member+

    Money Grab FC
    Apr 26, 2012
    The fans are protesting the increasing number of exceptions to the 50+1 ownership rule. I think all the pro/rel people would welcome that rule here.

    They also despise RB Leipzig.

    They also aren't dealing with the billionaire owned team jumping into the 1st division without winning every division between where they started. They still had to pour money in and then sport meritoriously.
     
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  6. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Literally the rest of my post is pointing out that its happened elsewhere outside of England.
     
  7. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    According to this its not just about that:
    https://www.goal.com/en/news/why-do...ffenheim-owner-hopp/erb07iqf7hht1h48pkvw2brfs

    Also Hoffenheim and Hopp weren't granted the exception until 2015, yet Bayer Leverkusen fans were protesting Hopp's money as early as 2008. So it clearly isn't just about Hoffenheim being an exception. Its also about Hoffenheim not being the "right" team to be in the Bundesliga.

    And of course Wolfsburg and Leverkusen, two teams that are also excepted, are considered acceptable by the protesters because they are the "right" teams.
     
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  8. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member+

    Money Grab FC
    Apr 26, 2012
    Ah, so it was about German fans not being happy when the sporting merit qualifications were met, but only though an alteration of the ownership rules that most of the other clubs follow that allowed a billionaire to dump money into essentially a village team?

    If Hoffenheim was still "community owned" and managed to make the climb through development/coaching/reinvesting after being pillaged by Bayern the rest of the league would be cool with it?
     
  9. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But, but sporting merit!!!

    By the way it does happen in England but hasn't happened to the same degree as Germany.

    Wigan is example of a club perennially stuck in the lower divisions and playing in a shack that was bankrolled to the Premier League and stayed there for several seasons and even appeared in the Europa League.

    Rushden and Diamonds were bankrolled into the Football League and stayed there until their owner had business problems and took the club down with him.

    But you know, sporting merit.
     
  10. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Compare the positive reaction to Union Berlin's rise to the BL compared to the negativity surrounding RB Leipzig.
     
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  11. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What rules were bent/changed prior to 2015?

    And without those changes, could Hoffenheim ever have hoped to make it to the Bundesliga?

    A team that was twice refused promotion to the 2nd Bundesliga due to financial requirements. But, you know, 'sporting merit'.
     
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  12. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member+

    Money Grab FC
    Apr 26, 2012
    Exactly. By virtue of sporting merit, the other criteria for promotion could be looked at.
     
  13. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    *rolls eyes* You know very well that's not the argument those that shout "sporting merit!" are making.
     
  14. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So why then are German cool with Wolfsburg and Bayer Leverkusen? Wolfsburg are bankrolled by Volkswagon and Bayer Leverkusen are bankrolled by Bayer Pharmaceuticals.

    https://www.goal.com/en/news/what-i...rn-munich-dortmund/1tbauau8p6cm01xbm8ok60k1uc

    Hopp's exemption was voted on and approved by the other DFB Clubs. If fans have issues they should take it up with the club officials who actually approved the exemption.
     
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  15. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member+

    Money Grab FC
    Apr 26, 2012
    Most likely they're grandfathered with some wistful thought that it was originally workers of those two companies that started the clubs? I don't know the depths of the german football fan psyche....
     
  16. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "In cases where a person or company has substantially funded a club for a continuous period of 20 years, it is possible for that person or company to own a controlling stake in the club."

    Leverkusen were founded in 1904 and Leverkusen in 1945. Both turned pro in 1963. The 50+1 rule was implemented in 1998. As Leipzig are technically in compliance with the rule, Hoffenheim have become the butt of protests.
     
  17. ThreeApples

    ThreeApples Member+

    Jul 28, 1999
    Smurf Village
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And they both were obscure clubs that got bankrolled by corporate money up to the BL, Leverkusen in the late 70s, and and Wolfsburg in the 90s.
     
  18. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How is Hoffenheim not in compliance? Hopp has funded Hoffenhiem for 30 years at this point and wasn't granted an exception until after 25 of those years.
     
  19. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Wigan, Watford, Swansea, Bournemouth, Brighton - I could go on.
     
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  20. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    None of which have been outside the 92 since since the 70's (Brighton since the 60's).
     
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  21. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You're right.
     
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  22. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah sporting Merit. which is literally how these leagues were formed. Of course money played a role, but the clubs are literally in the Bundesliga because of their play on the field.

    is it perfect? No of course not, and depending on your own personal beliefs and priorities you could identify numerous issues.

    But it's a bit rich to see defenders of a closed system where the owners wealth is literally the single most important factor in getting a team complaining about wealthy owners influencing who is in a league.
     
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  23. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Unless they don't meet the financial requirements, such as Union Berlin being denied promotion twice.

    Just like its a bit rich seeing defenders of pro/rel hold up a system where the fans in that system complain about the "wrong" teams getting promoted.
     
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