Apparently what really boosted Ligue 1 domestic TV ratings was PSG signing a bunch of megastars. https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/psg-ligue-1-tv-rights-lfp-ceo A possible lesson for MLS.
Weird how similar USL Championship (independently run teams) and French Ligue 2 attendances are., not that I'm reading anything into that. RC Lens is a big club that has had some financial irregularities.
I'm not questioning what you posted. Perhaps English not being my native language plays a role, but I donot know what you exactly mean with your posts on the fan subject. It's an attempt to understand what exactly you do mean. I can't criticize or support something if it isnot clear to me.
Well, thy could go to the wonderful Musée Toulouse-Lautrec every weekend instead, but yeah exactly. Pro/rel opens an avenue to lower division teams that simply doesn't exist in closed leagues.
I'm so glad you mentioned this, because I truly love that museum. I love delicious conflict that Toulouse-Latrec himself would have over it: in the provincial nowhere that he would never return to, but at the same time in a converted abbey designed to showcase his work... The man was intimately familiar with camp, and this would definitely tickle his ironic fancy.
A lot France has interests beyond football (not counting Les Bleus: the French are nothing if not nationalistic). It's not so dissimilar to here.
Did you compare the population of places in lower tiers in France with populations of conurbations of USL teams?
I was staying to the south in a beautiful village in Languedoc. That museum was one of the highlights of my time there.
UGA/FL is always an early afternoon game (FL/TEN as well and yeah I know TEN has been shit for a while but this is still a marquee game). A&M/ARK is always the first game of the day. The nooners for the SEC that are "big" ARE almost exclusively in the first 4-5 weeks of the season though. Is this where we debate the meaning of superstar? That's been done on this thread. I have a feeling you meant 1% or something akin to the Messi/Ronaldo level types. I already did quote you: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/t...er-in-the-usa.2029961/page-1063#post-38668494 So what is driving interest in top tier in their country soccer leagues that AREN'T the top leagues in the world? What is compelling about them? I mean the already top tier fans. What's the point in being (not picking on feyenoord here) a Utrecht/Heerenveen fan (solidly in top tier, no going to win the title), or if you're in those locals why are you watching the Dutch league when there's SEVERAL better leagues? You're saying that MLS doesn't have a compelling reason, in of itself, by being the top US domestic soccer league because there are better/more popular leagues elsewhere in the world. So then it would follow that leagues like the Eredivisie isn't compelling, in of itself, by being the top Dutch domestic soccer league because there are better/more popular leagues elsewhere in the world ... right? Pro/Rel isn't why superstars are playing for the top European clubs/leagues. It isn't why Arsenal is a global team. It isn't why Barca/Real had their own TV deals for so long. I wish RichardL still posted here. He's a READING FC guy and spoke directly too this. He talked directly too how Championship club fans didn't hardly care about the Prem except maybe in passing. It was irrelevant to them even though there was promotion/relegation. Nothing about it mattered until the last 2-3 weeks when Championship folks would see who was joining them next season. Even the promotion "race" wasn't a thing for the majority of folks. Inherently the EPL or League 1 meant nothing as that isn't where their club sat. I also feel the "because there's better out there" point diminishes the question you ask here and render it moot. Jeff used to shit all over MLS all while championing his NPSL Tulsa darlings. He used to spout off at the lack of quality of MLS clubs/players all the while vehemently supporting a much inferior quality side. So why would you be a Triumph or roots fan anyway? MLS clubs are better. Not one in your city/town/market? Odd, there's not a Premier League, La Liga, Serie A, or LigaMX club either ... ... sooooooooooo Is that the one where lower league clubs can get into the top league? Because, simply, that does exist here. France probably is the best analogue for the US in terms of number of other sporting interests/fan captivations.
I think this depends on the fans in question. If those are the fans in the mls stadiums those are the best players in the league. If those are the ones watching soccer on a global scale with access to Messi etc. players, the bar of course is on another level. Fan context matters I think.
Apparently League Two teams want the season to be terminated but with the top 3 promoted as per usual with playoffs for the fourth promotion spot. But they don't want any teams to be relegated because "sporting merit". Funny that. The bottom two teams are 7 points adrift of safety.
Ok - I mean, I feel like you're bending over backwards here to make your point that unaffiliated rando in NV is going to watch WSU/Idaho over a more marquee matchup. It didn't have to be an SEC matchup and you know it. I'm sure you're going to turn this into something literal I said, though. WTF does that have to do with the argument I'm making? Man City is a team stacked with actual superstars and managed by one of the best coaches in the world. Nobody is going to think, "meh, watching NYCFC is just as good" unless they're in the metro area. No. The difference is every club in the Netherlands has the opportunity to play in the Eredivisie. The Eredivisie is all part of the same system, so if your club is 2 levels down or whatever, you may not pay that much attention to the top division, the whole ecosystem is interconnected. Ugh this again. You're actually making my argument with this, whether you realize it or not. The difference is that Reading spent 8 years in the Premier League in the last 15 years. Whether or not a Reading fan pays attention to the PL in a specific calendar is irrelevant. If Reading wins their league, I guarantee Reading fans will care about the Premier League. If Reading was permanently relegated to division 2, I think that would have a detrimental effect on their fanbase, as well. But they're not. Every year they could they could be at the top of the table. Also, this is completely ignoring what I'm saying. He loves Tulsa Athletic because they're his local team! MLS is nowhere near Tulsa. My point completely this entire argument is that locality trumps quality. I have said all along that it makes sense to be a fan of an MLS team if you're in market. But there is no pull at all if you're not. And there is much higher quality than MLS if you're not territorially connected. How many Greenville Triumph fans do you think exist outside of the upstate? Diehard Roots fans outside of the East Bay? Ok, so let's check in with NCFC and San Antonio. No? Let's try Louisville then. Rochester? Outside of specific cultural differences (especially regarding workers' rights and the relationship of the citizen to the state) I've often said that France and the U.S. are really really similar. Yes, exactly. I can go to an Atlanta United match and be thoroughly entertained by Barco and Pity and Josef Martinez, but they're not like watching De Bruyne or Hazard or Neymar or Griezmann or whatever. But I have an attachment to Atlanta - the context is that those players are representing something I care about. They don't have to be the best in the world, just better than the other ones playing in the USA. However, until ATLUTD came along I am not sure why I was supposed to pay attention to MLS. If I want to watch soccer that doesn't mean anything personal to me, why would I choose MLS over Barça or Liverpool? Even if, say, Nashville SC had joined instead of Atlanta in 2017, I have zero connection to Nashville, despite Chattanooga being equidistant between Atlanta and Nashville. Similarly, if I hadn't lived in Atlanta for 10 years, I wouldn't have any reason to care about United, either.
You don't have to watch anything you don't want to, so if you ignore MLS because Barcelona exists, great! Continue to indulge in your fandom how you see fit. However, as to how someone else might approach that question, again, more soccer is a good thing. More so than the major sports in the U.S. the soccer landscape is already far less centralized. Multiple top leagues in the world, multiple competitions, and that's even before getting into national teams. If someone follows their local team, a Premier League team, the national team, plus watches other notable match ups from top league Europe, I have hard time fathoming them being totally uninterested in MLS. Again it's fine if that's their choice, but it seems weird to me if a fan of the sport in general couldn't ever find something worth watching in MLS, be it a guy like Zlatan or Vela scoring some great goals, or following guys like Morris who look to be very solid NT players despite not being in top league Europe, or even just watching a game to appreciate the stadium atmosphere of the MLS clubs who can pull it off. Growing up in the 90s I couldn't fathom a U.S. soccer team putting on a game day experience like Atlanta has been. Why should I have checked out some NISA games on youtube when my local team is USL Championship and I already have an existing predilection to watch Dortmund and LA Galaxy on TV? Because I like soccer.
I don't think that makes as big a difference as you do. I don't watch Premier League football because one day Notts may be in the Premier League. I occasionally watch it when I have nothing else to do. I rarely watch Championship games and usually for no more than 20 minutes because I find the style of football boring compared to MLS. I also watch some Bundesliga matches but only to see how the American players are doing.
You're also commenting on a soccer message board. Surely, every one of us realizes we're somewhat exceptional, right? There is a finite number of hours in the weekend and MLS has to compete with a lot for the casual sports fan. This is exacerbated by the fact that MLS is hard to find anyway! Meanwhile, the best soccer in the world is played at a time when most Americans don't have a whole lot else going on (well, church, maybe). I'm not talking about fandom, though. I'm not even claiming that anyone shouldn't watch MLS. I'm merely making the argument for why MLS is going to have a hard time closing the gap (much less overtaking) NHL until stars, in their prime, are choosing between MLS and the big European leagues. I just feel that if MLS wants to be relevant in Phoenix or Indianapolis or Tampa or Greenville or Omaha or Tulsa or wherever, if clubs in those cities play their way in, it would go a long way towards getting people in those markets interested. Because while the first three might be attractive markets to MLS, Phoenix is probably the only one with any real shot. Even then, it won't exactly be the same team. I'm betting there won't be dollar beer nights.
Yeah. If my local club had a shot at promotion I'm definitely not going to go out of my way to follow MLS matches that don't already have viewing hook for me. And besides, if aspirational dreams are necessary I can just think of a USL Premier League happening one day since our system allows for the promotion of whole leagues.
Ok. So tell me how a fan in Omaha or Albuquerque is going to connect with MLS? A 60 year old football fan in Bournemouth might never have felt much connection to the Premier League, either, but I bet they do now. Well, you aren't in the UK anymore, either. But I think people generally have plenty of other reasons to watch the Premier League. Besides, that statement was about why someone in Grenoble or Noordwijk would care about Ligue 1 or the Eredivisie, respectively, vs. La Liga, BuLi, Serie A, or the Premier League. And it also has a lot of the biggest stars. But you're also invested emotionally in NYCFC, so it makes sense that you'd fill the soccer void with MLS, since what happens in it is relevant to you. You have a team in the system, so you're invested in it. I mean, maybe that's not it. But I don't see how MLS reaches those fans in the current system when it's both not making a regional connection nor does it have big stars. It's kind of like wondering why the XFL struggles to get attention each time. Well, this is sort of the argument I'm using against MLS, though. I don't think anyone is choosing to watch the Championship as a neutral. Ok? I mean, I've already said that I think a big part of the American attraction to the Premier League is cultural familiarity.
It does interest when the entire population of Holland lives within an hour's drive of a top 3 Eredivisie club, with most of them a lot closer.
I didn't say an hour's drive to all three. I think most of the Dutch population can drive to Eindhoven, or Rotterdam, or Amsterdam, in under an hour, and the rest of the country can in under 2. By contrast the teams involved in "401 derby" in MLS are 555 km apart.
Anyone that puts sporting integrity and football in the same sentence is deluded.They’d shoot their grandmothers for 3 points.Clubs are blowing their brains in, losing fortunes. In the name of sporting integrity.Clubs are selling stadia and warping ffp rules in the name..— Andyh (@AndyhHolt) May 15, 2020 An interesting thread and take on sporting merit by Andy Holt.
100% agree ... which is why saying "superstar" doesn't really do much in this context. Giovinco, Keane, Beckham, Henry were all superstars on loads of levels (not just the MLS viewpoint). Vela is a superstar now. However, I will say that you can be a "superstar" here in the US and be a draw even if there's the potential to see a Messi on TV. If you're not willing to explore points or opinions, why post them? This is a poster for the myriad of variables involved and how you (or I, or feyenoord, or anyone else) chooses to present them in this discussion. The fact that you said "otherwise unaffiliated" matters to the point. The fact that marquee match ups happen at 10-12 in the morning for said person matters (SEC or not). With no prior attachment the only thing drawing that random person to watch is is that they like college football. THAT IS THE POINT, ditto soccer. Well, in where I quoted you ... you say "in the USA" in regards to the other 4 sports ... and NYCFC is in the top tier of domestic soccer in the USA. So again, is that not a compelling point in of itself to watch? Why does it only work for the other 4 and not MLS? Is it because the other four are also the top for the sport in the world? If so then ..... So being the top level of Dutch soccer isn't a compelling reason to watch it then? Because it isn't the top of the sport in the world. Same with Ligue 1. AND ... Well yeah ... this again because it's a perfect example from someone that was/is a literal part of it. They aren't there now and they could care less about it. The fact the WERE or COULD BE AGAIN ONE DAY does nothing to drive their interest in it. They only care about it when it's actually a thing. Even with the ability to be there their interest in the PL isn't there. Yet, people in the US shit on the "closed" structure and say that MLS would garner more interest if clubs could promote up to it .... like say some dude in Tulsa would all of a sudden care about and follow the MLS "if one day his club could get there" ... speaking of ... "no pull" (that goes back to the question above about the MLS being the top domestic outlet for soccer). And again, why is someone in the US latching onto Everton that an MLS club doesn't have the ability to provide? ZERO promotion or relegation worries with them .... no superstars (on their scale) really. Quite limited Euro engagement and not any cups either. Plenty of folks latch onto clubs like that, from over here, despite there being (in some cases) much higher quality. So what gives? As for this here ... quality isn't really the issue. It's a cop out. If you're willing to slog through an NPSL or whatever match because it's "your team" then you aren't actually worried about the quality of the soccer being played at all. How available are those two clubs compared to say LAFC/LAG or even Charleston? I can point to clubs that are ... and clubs that aren't in pro/rel set ups. Doesn't erase the fact that lower tier clubs CAN here in the US. Unless you're saying they can't ... there's no real comment to be made here. or Dutch clubs .... or Mexican clubs ... or rando German clubs? Because that's why folks here are doing even though there are higher quality options This is a fundamental thinking difference between you and I. (this next part isn't aimed at you, just using as an example) - many in the pro/rel camp selectively apply things like this. "Quality" for instance .... or "no attachment" even though they have selected a non US club that 99% have no reason to care about. Having to bend, selectively apply, or qualify is what the vast majority have to do in order to exclude MLS as an option but watch (insert non MLS team from not in the US here). You literally just made the argument that you "UGH THIS AGAIN" above. In the deepest and richest soccer pyramid in the world RICHARDL commented on how THAT ISN'T REALLY THE CASE. Folks in Reading don't give a shit about the PL unless they're in it! So why would Tulsa or Omaha fan? It also excludes the LOSS of interest from (insert relegated teams here) and glosses over the fact that the interest is only held (majorily) while the club is there. The same way a slew of folks connect to major league teams in the US that aren't in the market of a major league team. The kid they knew growing up made it. The guy from NM United got signed. Things like that. Oh please, people on the pro/rel side of the "discussion" have no interest in facts ...
Because you're simply trolling with this: you knew the point was was marquee matchup vs. pillow fight but you strawmanned your typical unaffiliated Nevadan into suffering through watching a Washington State game. Bravo. Because the other 4 sports are, by a very large margin, the absolute best in the world and MLS simply isn't. But this has nothing to do with what I am talking about: the PL is relevant to a Reading fan, just like it was relevant to a Bournemouth or Brighton fan. I don't expect fans to follow leagues their team isn't in. How is MLS relevant to an OKC Energy fan? MLS has a major irrelevance problem. How do you address that? I am proposing that in more clubs cycled into it, it could reach more places. I don't think I am being much of a revolutionary bomb thrower with that line of thinking. You are absolutely projecting here. There's a huge difference between focusing on the Championship because your team is in it, and "not giving a shit about the PL". I bet a fair number of Reading fans tune into the Merseyside and Mancunian derbies. Plus you're basing your analysis of fandom in England on one poster on BigSoccer. Any club cannot make it to MLS. Yes, that is what I am saying. In fact, for majority of clubs, it's literally impossible. Oh we are, but we're also not interested single counterexamples being used as proof that the system doesn't work. His Twitter feed has been posted here a few times, and I think it's a good example of the dangers of the system are. I would argue that his beef is not against "sporting merit", but against the corruptibility that we've seen in England, Mexico, and elsewhere. Given the current economic and political climate here in the U.S., I think it's reasonable to be cynical about the same thing happening here, too. It's not a given, I don't think, that you have to have corruption and pro/rel together: the Dutch seem to regulate things fairly well. The Germans to a lesser degree, but certainly better than England or Italy. But, yes, the status quo in England is broken. Is he really calling for a stop to pro/rel, though? Or for stronger oversight?