The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it's gotten better over time as businessmen who were successful in other fields have taken over the larger clubs and made their operations more professional. But the drop off in operational competence is probably pretty steep. Many clubs around the world are treading water, and are probably one or two bad months away from failing to meet their payroll.

    That's one of the reasons MLS has been able to sign players from smaller leagues in CONCACAF- No MLS player has ever missed a paycheck.
     
  2. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Cartel!
     
    KCbus repped this.
  3. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    Ex-pat in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    In this day and age, I'm sure that the biggest clubs are very much up on their market research. It's also not fair to judge them purely in the sphere of businesses. Historically, clubs weren't started as money-making endeavors and the commercial end has only risen to prominence as a means to build the best teams.

    Technically, Real Madrid and Barca are not-for-profit entities and the money they make is meant to be reinvested in the club. With that said, their financial performance within the sphere of sports is actually excellent.
     
  4. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    90m pounds ... your argument is invalid.

    There's several clubs I'd venture are at minimum, as good as Huddersfield Town was.

    Yeah no.
     
  5. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Chesco United repped this.
  6. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  7. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    "There you go again".
     
  8. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    I'd like to see empirical evidence one way or the other. My impression is that it's a wash. Better run clubs consistently make better use of them; the basket case clubs like Sunderland, Blackburn and Coventry fritter it away and get relegated again to their level of incompetence.
     
  9. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Isn't that NBC?
     
  10. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Yes in 40 years who knows, right now though it would be suicidal for a Liverpool or Arsenal to leave the EPL for a closed 'Harlem Globetrotter' league that their paying customers simply don't want, I think that if Chelsea Football Club abandoned the football league there would be a LOT of extremely 'pissed off' people out to course an awful lot of trouble there, I imagine that if Juventus dared to abandon the Italian league for some Euro league it would be even worse - the fans in Italy have BIG say in the clubs they support.
     
  11. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Only 4 points clear with 18 points to play for and you think it's meaningless!? That's called being in the thick of it! Never under-estimate a clubs ability to drop like a stone at the business end of the season! Traversely I remember a Crystal Palace team at the bottom of the Championship at Christmas that ended up promoted at the end of the season. Earlier this week we were supposed to believe that 60% of all EPL matches are 'meaningless' now we are supposed to believe that by the round of 32 they will be meaningless!? But the fact is that is simply not true! There will be NO meaningless fixtures on the 32nd round of games.
     
  12. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Listen, I know reading isn't your strong suit, but I didn't say it was a meaningless game. I said it was the closest to a meaningless game that Round 33 had last year.

    I.NEVER.SAID.THAT. you $#@%$! moron.

    Hey mods, at what point is this guy just trolling?

    Despite the evidence I just supplied you of round 32 games in 2017-18 and 2016-17 that were borderline meaningless (actually I'd call the Round 32 game in 2016-17 between WBA and Southampton meaningless.
     
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  13. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    #25589 Crawleybus, Jan 11, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
    Borderline meaningless? I don't think that's possible? You seem to be the one throwing insults not me so it's a bit rich you crying to the mods - look the point is the original claim was that pro/rel reduces the 'meaningless' matches you get between the bottom teams without it, and it does, that is a simple fact, The US league has a feel of 'friendlies' being played because perhaps, there us nothing of real consequence on the game, that is just what people think, I believe that introducing something that really matters for failure increases tension and excitement for these games, relegation dogfights have THE most incredible of atmospheres both on and most definately off the pitch, I have been lucky enough to be in a stadium at such a time. I believe the EPL would be MUCH MUCH poorer without rel. Whether introducing pro/rel into the US is a good or bad idea is, at the end of the day, something Americans need to decide on, its MY opinion that pro/rel would improve the product visually and would inctease interest from outside the US - but hey does that even matter? If people in the US like it the way it is then is that really a problem?
     
  14. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh, for the love of god.

    Yes. Pro/rel REDUCES the number of meaningless games. It doesn't eliminate them. There are 20 teams in the EPL. 7 qualify for Europe. 3 get relegated. That means there are 10 teams in the middle who wind up playing for nothing at the end of the season.

    OK, to be fair, there are sometimes teams OUTSIDE the relegation zone who are still fighting relegation, so let's add one team at the bottom who's playing meaningful matches. Let's also add one or two who still have a chance to qualify for Europe. But if you do that, it's also fair to note that there's usually at least one team that's already guaranteed to be relegated, so that's one MORE team with meaningless matches, and there's bound to be somone in the top seven who are locked into their spot (already clinched the title; already clinched the CL but out of the title race; already clinched the Europa League but out of contention for the CL). So we're basically saying ten spots that don't amount to anything. THERE ARE GOING TO BE MEANINGLESS MATCHES.

    MLS has 26 teams now. 14 qualify for the postseason. That means there are 12 teams at the bottom who will not qualify for the postseason. Let's say that with a couple weeks left in the season, five or six teams still have a shot to get in (because historically, that's the case). That leaves 8 or 9 teams playing meaningless matches. But you'd also have to say that of the 14 that qualify, a few of them will have nothing to play for (qualified, but can't move up or drop; clinched the Shield; clinched the homefield advantage but out of contention for the Shield, etc), so drop a few more. So basically, 10 or 12 spots with nothing to play for. THERE ARE GOING TO BE MEANINGLESS MATCHES.

    Neither system is perfect, and neither system is terrible. Both add intrigue and drama, and both have gaps that can't be filled.

    So what personally tickles me or what personally tickles you probably shouldn't be the deciding factor on which system is better, because that's subjective. Personally, I'd rather have MLS' system, because the consequences of failure are immediate (there's a championship tournament taking place NOW that you're not in) and survivable. The consequences of relegation don't start immediately (it doesn't take effect until next season) and far more dire. But that's opinion. Realistically, long-term effects on the league, the sport and the individual clubs should be more of the motivating factor. In many parts of the world, Pro/Rel works. In the U.S., I think it would make things worse.
     
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  15. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You’re the one who can’t read and consistently makes up claims that we’re never stated, despite repeated attempts to point out the truth to you. How is that not trolling?
     
  16. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The hilarious thing about this post is that most European domestic leagues resemble the Harlem Globetrotters far more than MLS does. Just look at the tables year after year.

    And beyond that, one of the most frequently seen objections to a European Super League is that the big clubs' brands wouldn't be as strong without winning constantly. That sounds a lot like... the Harlem Globetrotters.
     
  17. The huge problem with this take is the missing notion it takes two teams to make a match meaningless. As I showed the chance that this happens is very small and only at the last two matches. Either the club that has nothing at stake at the end of the run meets a club still in the running for a Euro ticket or one that tries to avoid relegation. So if these clubs would think to take it easy they get murdered by the opponents with still something at stake, and by their fans if these see a bunch on the pitch already on holidays.
    Anyway, tabel spot also defines the pay out for the club, so also from that pov this is a nonsense take.
    Spin it as much as you want, each match matters in the Euro leagues.
     
    Crawleybus repped this.
  18. upload_2020-1-11_23-27-49.png

    Wolves had on matchday 33 (57-/- 10)=47 points. Crystal Palace then had (49-/-10)= 39 points. This means those socalled meaning less last 5 matches were pivotal to the Wolves staying ahead of up till CP, lest to speak about the clubs between those two. So we already have meaningfull last 5 matches for nr 7-12 of the table in striking distance of a Euro ticket. So much for meaningless> Meaningless my arse.
    Now let's turn our attention to the within relegation striking distance.
    The difference between Cardiff at matchday 33 with (34-/-6)=28 points and
    other teams is of importance as the chance was always there Cardiff might win 5 times = 15 points.
    So Leicester City started at matchday 33 with (52-/-5)= 47 points and safe from relegation, but still in the running for a Euro ticket. The same applies to Everton (54-/-8)=46 points.
    Westham however (52-/-10)=42 points was both in the running for a Euro ticket as fighting against relegation. Losing all the last 5 matches would mean ending with 1 point less than Cardiff if these won all their last 5 matches. etc. etc..etc...


    upload_2020-1-11_23-30-21.png
     
  19. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Except I just provided examples from Round 32 in two of the last three years...
     
  20. Then you got your examples wrong. At least for season 2018/2019.
    I start with matchday 33, which is a match day more played.
     
  21. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not retyping my post on the last page. Feel free to read it, then we can discuss.
     
  22. The only hilarious thing is this quoted post.
    As I showed with the epl example the matches matter till the end, not so in mls. At a (early) given moment winning/losing doesnot matters anymore. True Harlem act.

    Your point being?
    To make a point, a superclub in the eyes of the plastic fans/star gazers is a club that wins trophees like the league title and gets far in an Euro Cup competition.
    In a Superleague there's only one winner and of your superclub status isnot much left if you continue to end at the bottom of that league. No shiny silverware, so what's the plastic fan going to be proud of?
     
  23. I read it and your take on meaningless is your odds making of the chance either charging into Euro spot place or falling towards the relegation zone. However that's not how things work. You still have to win the matches to stay out of the relegation zone. The odds calculating after the league has finished isnot a convincing method.
     
  24. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here I'll make this very simple for you and @Crawleybus since apparently subtlety is too difficult.

    Is it possible for there to be mathematically meaningless games in the EPL - Yes, probably not until the last two rounds, give or take.

    Is it possible for their to be meaningless games in the EPL, in that the form and current placement of both teams is such that neither team has to be particularly worried abut relegation or particularly hopeful about European qualification, given that it would take an amazing run of form (good or bad) by the team involved plus complete collapses/successes of multiple teams not in the game being considered, the combination of which is rarely, if ever, seen, so both teams fans feel pretty comfortable they're going to finish somewhere in the muddled middle already going into the game, regardless of the result? - Yes, and those start happening somewhere around Round 32 or so, depending on the exact schedule in a given year.

    Are both of those scenarios possible in MLS? - Yes, though obviously the positions involved are different since the muddled middle in the EPL are the ones fighting for the playoffs in MLS, and the relegation battlers in the EPL are the ones playing meaningless games in MLS.

    Happy now?
     

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