The A-League Expansion Thread

Re: when should we enter new clubs into the a-league?

I think a bye is a bad idea at the moment considering we don't play that many games as is. Two teams would be sensible. I have to agree that we don't quite have the talent at the moment to support to many more teams at a good level, but with more teams hopefully the young guys will be much more prominent, and given game time, many of our young players could be the top players in the league.

I think if Wellington goes alright next season, at least showing they aren't going to be another Knights or Kingz, then we could concievably expand for season 4. But if Wellington are a flop and get replaced, then we should wait. We need the NZ player pool to bolster up the strength of the comp at the moment.

 

Re: when should we enter new clubs into the a-league?

I'm not sure about Wellington???

I thought that North Queensland should have been given the chance.

Other than that I do not think Sydney and Melbourne need another team.

I say add Nth Queensland ( not Townsville, be based in Townsville though ie Cowboys).

Thats it for a few years. Then look at adding Wollongong, maybe Gold Coast and then look at maybe a Westen Sydney team and another Victorian team.

 

Re: when should we enter new clubs into the a-league?

I think season 08/09 would be a great time for 2 more teams to enter the comp. NQ definitely has to be one.....Not sure who else, maybe Woollongong/Canbarra/GC.....I can't choose. I guess the FFA will have to just take a look at which bids stack up the best.

 

Re: when should we enter new clubs into the a-league?

IMO next season (08/09) is the right time to expand to ten teams - just before WC, interest building, with players hopefully coming home to bolster the ranks for 2nd term for new clubs (09/10). The two teams chosen should be the ones that are showing justified interest now - ie out Townsville, GC and the Gong, perhaps Tassie if they really pull their finger out (these are the only for I've heard anything from - nothing officially has come from Canberra). Expansion should always be slow, so only two teams should be let in (unless Wellington farks it and folds). After this expansion would depend on how these two new teams went - if positive immediately (which I'd give 50-50 chance) then 2 more years (11/12) for 2 more teams, if it takes a bit longer then, then it should take longer for expansion.

The furthest we should expand IMO is 16 teams (earliest season 13/14), after this we can hopefully and eventually move to prom/ relegation. After the next expansion I really don't care where the new teams come from, as long as they are viable. If you look at the football demographic, under the old regions, NSW was (and still is) by far the biggest, therefor deserves the most teams, then QLD, then NNSW(Hunter, North Coast, New England) all before Victoria, so whilst I'd have nothing against a second Melbourne/ Victorian team and be fairly certain they would succeed, something could be said for a North Coast (Coffs, Lismore) or second Newcastle team being in front of them, this would be where Prom/Relegation comes in handy, also by the time that would come into play we should be over the anti-"wog" club thing (and the "wog" clubs should be over there exclusivity thing, as most of them already seem to be) enough such that any club good enough backing can try to get in, ie for promotion have all the state league champions play off or something.

Of course that last paragraph all seems a long way into the future but it could happen in say 10 years, 10 years in the past and SA was still running things, we had no money, we still hadn't even been beaten by Iran yet and there was no real future on the horizon.

 

Re: Official Queensland Roar FC Thread [R]

lol.. must be the roar's new home ground as suncorp has got too expensive to play at..

on a serious point, whats with alan hunter's plan to enter brisbane FC in the aleague in a few years... 2 teams didn't work with Rugby league... don't think its gonna work with the aleague... surely north QLD or gold coast is the better option for QLD..

 

Re: when should we enter new clubs into the a-league?

http://www.smh.com.au/news/football/expand-too-quickly-and-well-bust-aleague-boss-warns/2007/04/03/1175366243985.html

I am in favour of having at least one team in all the large cities within the next two years so that all bases are covered. Gold coast and Canberra have a population of just under 900,000 between them. That is a large potential fanbase that needs to be tapped into. If a team can establish itself in these two markets and the current teams build on what they have now, the FFA will probably be looking at a big payday when the tv rights next come up. On the other hand, if they both flop it could set the league back some. But hey, a faint heart never won a fair maiden...


I am in two minds about a Townsville franchise for a number of reasons. First off, they have a small population base to draw on of approx. 120k + surrounding area which makes me wonder if they can pull the crowds. However, I know from experience that there is not alot to do in regional centers so in my mind it is not unreasonable to believe that they could get 15k+ crowds at their games. You would get a LOT more bang for you buck with marketing the club in the region which would help pull in the crowds as well.

The second problem I see is with getting sponsors. I have heard the rumours that BHP may sponsor the team, but is there anything else? One possibility that I can think of is a tourism company coughing up to put their name on the shirt. Tourism + asia not to mention the rest of Australia, sounds like a match made in heaven to me. But I don't know...

I think it would be neat to have the townsville team in the A-league purely to see if they can build a successful club in such a small regional centre. If they could do it there, then why not else where in the future?


cheers

 

Re: Official Queensland Roar FC Thread [R]

I don't think a second Brisbane A-League team will work just yet. As for league, 2 brisbane teams DID work in a way. The Crusheres were averaging 20-30k plus for the first two seasons. It didn't work because they couldn't recruit good players, and when push came to shove and the Super League war resolved, there were clubs who deserved to stay more than Sth Qld.

 

Re: when should we enter new clubs into the a-league?

Honestly, I think we need to be thinking longer term and where the clubs are going to need to be in 10 years time, rather than where they are now and if they can support a team.

The average AFL club has a budget of around $30 million. This is the sort of financial strength I would like to see the A-league clubs have. Now Tasmania is true-blue AFL heartland. But with its disperse 480K people, the population is not big enough to support an AFL club. A second club to rugby heartland of QLD is more viable.

Now dispite the fact that Victorians would love to see a club in Tasmania for sentimental reasons, but it is not vaible. If in Tasmania where every man and his dog have been one-eyed AFL supporters for 100 years can not support an AFL club there, then how can it support an A-league club where soccer is the minor sport? The same logic flows out to all these small population places.

Sure, under the current system with the current tiny salary cap of $1.4 million, a place like Townsville is putting up its hand saying "we can support a club worth a couple of million". But what happens when those clubs are worth $30 million per year?

At the moment Melbourne supports 9 AFL clubs with Geelong an extra in Geelong, and that is certainly 1 team too many, perhaps 2. Sydney supports what, about 9 NRL teams. Point is that clearly the growth has to come where the money is. That is not Townsville or Alice Springs, it is the major metros. But the teams already there need to be left alone to put down roots for the SPORT in the major metros.

So a longer term view is needed than just banging in a team from whichever region feels they can support a two-bob side in a cheap competition, and I am sure the Lowys are thinking exactly that way. Development of the sport in general, and building the teams to financial strength. Not throwing in teams from these little regional centres because a few guys at the pub can scrape together a few hundred thousand dollars and reckon it would be a good idea. It is not about attendance figures at games, it is about sponsorship and advertisers, TV rights and brand recognition.

 

Re: when should we enter new clubs into the a-league?

There is something to that, although the relocation of AFL clubs cause a rediculous amount of heart-ache. It was easier to set up West Coast Eagles, Adelaide Crows from scratch than relocating Melbourne clubs.

If Townsville has the following to support an A-league club with its 150,000 population, and it gets kids choosing to play the game, then it is developing the sport, and that is a good thing. But we need to be careful about letting too many clubs in with such a small financial base, as it can only end in tears (unless the A-league goes to some relegation type formula to get rid of them easily, but that is a bad option for the development of the league economically).

On a relegation system, that is not good for the league financially as it increases uncertainty and risk for potential investors. We don't have relegation in AFL or NRL, and that helps the struggling clubs stay afloat.

But for mine, it is obvious that there should be additional clubs added to Melbourne and Sydney before some regional place with a population and geographical expansion like Wagga Wagga or Broome or whatever towns people are bandying about like throwing darts at a map. For Sydney it is obvious how to do this because of the way the city has grown in terms of geography and demographics. There should be a Western Sydney club. Especially since Sydney FC has branded itself as Bling FC, a battling Western Sydney club would allow the fan base to be split beautifully with the Eastern suburbanites and North Shore people continuing to follow Sydney FC, and the Westies following a team that plays somewhere in the West. But Sydney FC (or even Melbourne Victory) are not establised enough yet to split their fan base. No club in the A-league is.

It is pretty delicate. The football fans from the Gold Coast are almost definately following Queensland Roar on FoxSports at the moment. An additional team in the Gold Coast would probably not sell many additional FoxSports subscriptions. Sure, it is an hour drive or so either way to see a game, but that is similar for people from Penrith who want to watch Sydney FC.


Anyway, the AFL went for near 100 years with 12 teams, and it worked just fine. In fact it made finals draws much easier. Just because the EPL has 20 teams in no way makes that an ideal number. There is no need to rush this with more teams. If we want more games, then a longer season is the first priority and the easiest way to accomplish it. The league is still in its infancy.

 

Re: when should we enter new clubs into the a-league?

Huh? What do you mean? What football demographics are you talking about? Have you been to Melbourne and seen the demographics? Or is it that you feel that it is likely to become faction ridden ethnically or something. Have you been to Newcastle? Noticed the crowd sizes at Victory games? The crowds the Victorian Premier League pulls? Or that half the WC2006 squad originates from Melbourne?

I don't get it, but you seem to know what you are talking about. Can you explain?

 

Re: when should we enter new clubs into the a-league?

Nah! The Sweeney Report shows that Soccer has more participants in Victoria than Aussie Rules, and has had for quite some time.

 

Re: when should we enter new clubs into the a-league?

Where are you getting these numbers? They cant be right. Just looking at them, it is obvious there is something wrong. I just checked the Australian Bureau of statistics site and the following 2005-2006 document, Participation in sports and Physical Recreation (1.1MB .pdf file, 48 pages). This data is for participants 15 years and over only.

The only numbers important in the document I include below for participation in soccer (indoor and outdoor):
NSW 201,700
Vic 120,600
QLD 73,200
SA 14,100
WA 27,900
TAS 4,900
NT -
ACT 5,000

Are we suggesting that A-league teams should be allocated to states along those lines though? It also depends on wealth and sporting interest. If there were 3-4 thousand multi-millionaires wandering around Tasmainia, I am sure we would have a team down there pretty fast.

 

Re: when should we enter new clubs into the a-league?

I am not some Melbourne defender, I have lived in Sydney and went to University there, and have only just returned to Melbourne having not lived here since 1996. My brother lives in Sydney. But the idea that Melbourne is some 'different country' like in Canada where French speaking Province of Quebec has Montreal, and Enlgish speaking Province of Ontario has Toronto, and the demographics are completely different are just wrong. There is no city in the world more similar to Melbourne than Syndey, and vice-versa.

OK, I think some people have the wrong idea of what Victoria is, having never been. Obviously the states soccer associations have different systems, requirements for registrations, leagues, registration fees, etc. and if NSW says it has 180,000 and Vic only 30,000 they are certainly not counting the same. See the ABS stats in my above post ... the ABS counts exactly the same everywhere. There is no way that Victoria is eclipsed by any other state by a factor of 6. It is just not the reality. The Australian Bureau of Statistics does count every region in the country the same (and forgive me, I work with stats).

So just running through the ethnic data from the Bureau of Statistics tells a story. Victoria has a far greater ethnic population as a proportion of population than NSW. This is only important since a large proportion of soccer fans and participants have traditionally come from the immigrant communities. This data is for language other than English spoken at home, and tells a story. I will use absolute numbers, and you need to keep in mind that NSW is significantly larger than Vic in population, so if I wanted to make Victoria look good and therefore talk percentages, Victoria leaps incredibly. Major immigrant communities:

Croatian: Vic 24,458, NSW: 25,215
Greek : Vic 119,577, NSW: 89,183
Italian: Vic 155,360 NSW: 100,099
Vietnamese: Vic: 114,603 NSW: 51,804
Arabic (including Lebanese): Vic: 35,718 NSW: 114,702
Chinese: Vic: 90,550 NSW: 157,932


People born in the UK: Vic 215,235 NSW: 288,611

Additionally Melbourne has the countries largest Jewish population that does not show up in the language data or birth-place data. In Caulfield and East St.Kilda you see Hassidic Jews running around all dressed in black with earlocks and hats. I did not see anything like that in Sydney, even though it is said there are a lot of Jews living around Bondi. Victoria is a diverse state.

Now NSW has 3 teams already in the A-league. The idea that Victoria should be at the bottom of the queue for some demographic reason is just wrong. The ABS stats for participation (in the post above) shows that Vic is a strong second in terms of participation, the demographic data say that Victoria is the most ethnicly diverse state, the attendance figures show that Victorian crowds eclipse everyhere else in the country. There is no way there should be 4th and 5th NSW teams before another Victorian.

And that is not because I happen to live in Victoria at the moment. If South Australia were the Italian city and had 150,000 people still speaking Italian in the home even 40 years after the mass migration, all settled as market gardeners in the Borossa Valley or something, then I would be arguing for a second team there. SBS and Foxsports are already too Sydney-centric. The rest of the country should not be neglected.

So if based on some number on a FFV web-site, you have the idea that Victoria is some pure white ALF loving "Aussie, Aussie, Aussie, Oi, Oi, Oi" place like maybe Darwin is, and should be last in line, that is just incorrect.

 

Re: when should we enter new clubs into the a-league?

Under the old system Soccer in Australia was split into federations for each state. NSW though was split into two - NSW and N(orthern)NSW. Despite losing Newcastle north, NSW was still by far the largest federation. NNSW was third - ahead of victoria (QLD, NNSW and VIC were all roughly the same though). This was in the late 90's - ealry 2000's under the old SA though, and things have changed a lot, especially in Victoria. All I was trying to show was that there are many ways to look at statistics, and many regions that could be viable for expansion.

The other thing is that if you don't come from a "country" area you wouldn't realise the amount of support that a regional team could bring in. A team in Coffs Harbour for instance could draw from almost 300,000 people (within about 1.5hrs). These are all people who love their sport but are too far from Sydney, Brisbane, or even Newcastle and Gold Coast to see any major sporting teams apart from exhibition games (and slaughterings of Island nations and Asian minnows by the Socceroos and Matildas ). They would turn up in droves. This doesn't put them in front of a second Melbourne teams by any reckoning, but don't count out regional areas because you think they are too small. If an area has the backing (financially) to put in a bid, they deserve the same chance as anyone else - and have the same chance of succeeding.

 

Re: when should we enter new clubs into the a-league?

Have 10 clubs at the moment but by the 8th season i hope we get 12 teams.

extend the regular season to say 30 games and either keep the finals or simply scrap it and have regular season at 33 games. WITH a cup fixture