The 4-3-3

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by flyerhawk, Aug 2, 2009.

  1. flyerhawk

    flyerhawk Member

    Feb 5, 2006
    Hoboken NJ
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So it looks like Arsene is serious about changing our shape. Given the players we have it seems almost like a no brainer.

    But if Arsene does, in fact, plan on playing a 4-3-3 wouldn't pretty much ensure that we would not go after another DM?
     
  2. Rewinder

    Rewinder Member+

    Jun 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    We would definitely need another CM. Right now our first choice pairing is what? Cesc-Song-Denilson? That's really not good enough to take on the rest of the big 4, or even teams like Everton who are very strong physically in midfield. Nasri will be an option when he gets back, but we still need another starting quality CM who is fairly proficient at defense.
     
  3. The Angel

    The Angel Member

    May 24, 2009
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I can see us playing this against weaker league opponents, but I doubt we'd play it in Europe.

    4-3-3 is passe anyway, everyone knows that we should be moving to a 4-6-0. ;)
     
  4. total_football

    total_football Member+

    Apr 2, 2002
    Chicago
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    4-6-0. Ah yes, the famous Steve Sampson World Cup '98 formation. The wonders that flow from a master tactician! :D
     
  5. ZIAD

    ZIAD Member

    Oct 11, 2004
    The only thing about the 4-3-3 while does Wenger insist on playing RVP in the middle and Bendter on the wing?
     
  6. Naushad78

    Naushad78 New Member

    Jul 14, 2006
    I was thinking the same thing until I saw the front 3 constantly interchanging. Very dynamic, very mobile, very fluid, keeps any defense on their toes.

    My problem with the 4-3-3 is that for it to work effectively it needs an absolutely strong DM while allowing the other two CMs to move forward. Barca played the system to perfection in midfield last year with Iniesta and Xavi secured by Yaya behind them.

    The problem with this formation is what happens against quality opposition? If it morps itself into a 4-5-1 then we suffer a big loss because we have two attacking strikers or advanced players who are then forced to play from midfield, with the top man getting very isolated and at most the Attacking midfielder in support(Cesc).

    Albeit with different personel this is exactly what happened to us towards the end of last season when Cesc got hoplessly thrown into the hole. This must NOT happen at any cost and therefore the need for the dm who does the work else we end up playing two deep CMs protecting the defense and hence compromise our options.

    If the 4-3-3 turns into a 4-2-3-1, we will not be as effective as we can be. But if it stays a 4-1-2-3, then our chances are bright. In any case, the intelligence and work ethic of our advanced three players will play a great role in its success. We won't be fussing around with this possession based play we've got so bored with. The ball will transfer from mid-field to attack faster and we will be more incisive. If we lose the ball in the opposition half, our shape should(in theory) allows us to get it back quicker, thereby placing less pressure on the defense.

    It's a pity that Tomas won't be a mainstay in our midfield this year because I feel that he's far above Nasri in terms of final output ATM.

    --------Back 4--------
    World Class DM
    ---Tomas------Cesc
    RVP/Theo--Bendy/Dudu--Shava/Jack

    WOW!!
     
  7. flyerhawk

    flyerhawk Member

    Feb 5, 2006
    Hoboken NJ
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why won't Tomas be a mainstay in our midfield?
     
  8. Rewinder

    Rewinder Member+

    Jun 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Like Wenger said, it's still another two months or so before we can declare victory in the battle for Rosicky.
     
  9. ZIAD

    ZIAD Member

    Oct 11, 2004
    Also on top of that the 4-4-2 depends a lot on overlapping full backs, something Sagna and Clichy are not that great at. A 4-3-3 system allows the full backs some breathing space and not be counted on to go forward every opportunity. Also it seems that Sagna is yet to find his crossing boots.
     
  10. thefoamroses

    thefoamroses New Member

    Sep 11, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    While the 4-3-3 might initially seem a sacrifice of defensive girth in midfield, it may actually aid our key frailty.

    With our pacey fullbacks expected to play in a more defensive position, occasionally rampaging forward to add to a front 5, our centre backs will have reduced pressure. Last season, late on in games, Gallas and Toure looked exhausted from all the instances they had to track back and cover long balls up the middle of the pitch. Having a more flat back four will reduce Gallas' and whomever partners him's energy expenditure.

    I think our front five and back four are solid. It is the defensive mid still in doubt. Song can play that role, but not over 50 some games this season. He needs help, and I think its important we add another player with veteran presence there.

    Wenger seems to think Vieira can do it. Makelele did it for Chelsea twice when they won the title. That is the standard we should compare Vieira to.
     
  11. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    4 3 3 allows us to play cesc in his proper position and press higher with more players

    it seems like a good idea
     
  12. Scally

    Scally Member+

    Aug 29, 2006
    Rep. of Ireland
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    Rafa has the right formula going forward but with the wrong wide players.

    Mascherano/DM - protect the back 4
    Alonso/Cesc - playmaker
    Gerrard/Nasri/Rosicky - link man, goal threat

    If 'Pool had our wingers i.e. Arshavin, Nasri, Rosicky type they may have won the league. David Silva would be a step in the right direction for them.

    Enough about them though my point in that the balance of their middle 3 is spot on. A DM, Quaterback (I think - no idea about NFL) and a quality AM/SS.

    I dont think a box-to-box is needed in a 3 man mid-field if everyone takes responsibility to press in the right area. You need a box-to-box in a 4-4-2 with a holding player. Thats why we have struggled with Cesc in there
     
  13. Rewinder

    Rewinder Member+

    Jun 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Song-Cesc-Rosicky/Nasri may be a winning combination, but chances are one will be injured and the other is needed out wide. If we signed a wide player who tracked back, we wouldn't need a CM, or we sign a CM and leave Rosicky/Nasri to primarily fill in out wide.
     
  14. FabregasTED

    FabregasTED Member

    Jan 2, 2007
    New Haven, CT
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    The 4-3-3 makes all the sense in the world, and I've been calling for it for at least a year.

    Which is all the more reason I'm certain it won't happen.
     
  15. YankGooner

    YankGooner Member

    Sep 24, 2007
    St. Louis
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If someone teaches Sagna proper crossing technique a 4-3-3 would be deadly.

    I'm seriously shocked that Arsene or Pat Rice has not made Sagna stay after training and teach him to drive the ball across with his laces instead of his persistant inside the foot/curve cross that never gets any height and gives our strikers no chance to do anything.

    If he learns how to cross we would maybe have 2-3 more legit scoring chances a game.
     
  16. Scally

    Scally Member+

    Aug 29, 2006
    Rep. of Ireland
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    We have Eduardo and RVP who can also play out wide in a 4-3-3. Wilshire will get chances too after his showing at the week end. We are stacked in the top 3 positions.

    I still want the elusive DM as cover/starter though for Song.
     
  17. Sean P.

    Sean P. Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Vela and Walcott can play wide in the 4-3-3 as well.

    Also, it's worth mentioning that the 4-3-3 is the one formation that Diaby actually fits in (as the free-role CM next to Cesc).
     
  18. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    viva la revolution
     
  19. Naushad78

    Naushad78 New Member

    Jul 14, 2006
    Not quite IMO. Viera was a complete box-box midfielder who had amazing defensive attributes. Makelele was an excellent reader of the game and brilliant in the tackle. Viera is nowhere near the box-box player that he was and acquiring him and asking him to fill a stop-gap role as a purely DMid and make a 'psychological' impact is a terrible sign of 'ambition' from the manager.
    I'd rather we just buy a classic dm and get on with it.
     
  20. Naushad78

    Naushad78 New Member

    Jul 14, 2006
    Why would you be shocked when we make the same mistakes year upon year, all over the pitch? Set-pieces, poor crossing, tactical fumbles, fitting square pegs in round holes, leaving key areas on the pitch un-addressed.
    Not me.
     
  21. JAKE SPEED

    JAKE SPEED Member

    Sep 27, 2007
    I'm a bit surprised that Wenger is trying to flog off Eboue if he is really planning on switching to a 433. Eboue is different sort of player compared to your stable of diminutive attacking midfielders. Chelsea and Barca have shown how effective an athletic box to box player can be on the right of midfield in a 433 with Essien and Keita. Late runs, dynamism, and strength to accompany your more technical players---seems like a nice tool to have in the box.
     
  22. Naushad78

    Naushad78 New Member

    Jul 14, 2006
    Essien to Eboue is like chalk is to cheese

    There is NO dynamism to Eboue's game and his only strength is rolling on the floor. He is an athlete whos skill is more suited to the defensive side of the game and is a good/decent runner with the ball. Once in the final 3rd he is pathetically clueless of what to do. It is a sad indictment of our club that we actually had Eboue-Diaby-Denilson starting some games for us in midfield last year.

    Eboue as back up RB, but no more. Not to mention that once Nasri's back and if indeed we are playing that formation, it will be a footballing tragedy if Eboue gets on the pitch either in the attacking trio or the dual CM position, considering our bench options.
     
  23. JAKE SPEED

    JAKE SPEED Member

    Sep 27, 2007
    Obviously, but their function is the same. The Keita comparison is more suitable. Athletic, somewhat technically limited player in a highly technical system has been very effective at providing a little steel and coming up with some good goals.


    I'm not saying he's penciled in for a starting spot, but he's definitely a useful tool. I recall he was quite good in your 2-0 victory over Milan a couple years ago playing wide right. As you said, he's an athlete suited to the defensive side of the game. You need players like that in addition to quick technical players. Not to mention that he's probably the best backup RB in the league.
     
  24. thefoamroses

    thefoamroses New Member

    Sep 11, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You made my point for me. When what we need is Makelele, Wenger is buying a player who knows nothing of that role. If Wenger believes he can convert Vieira to such a player, adding a few years to his career in the process, then he should make the deal. If not, we should look elsewhere for defensive midfielder.

     
  25. mtizzle

    mtizzle Member

    Jun 12, 2006
    Conshohocken
    We need someone like D'Augustino from Udinese or Javi Martinez from Bilbao, although he's young. I personally am a big fan of Cattermole from Wigan.
     

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