The 2011 Table - Magic Numbers, Tragic Numbers & Other Calculated Distortions [R]

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by Knave, Aug 25, 2011.

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  1. Kejsare

    Kejsare Member+

    Portland Timbers
    Mar 10, 2010
    Virginia
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Quote for truth.

    [I guess it is jumping the gun, Knave]
     
  2. Hachiko

    Hachiko The Akita on Big Soccer

    Jun 8, 2005
    Long Beach, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: ... Untoaster Update ...

    Knave, we're likely to send out a Reserve League side against New York, so I would not count out the Red Bulls on Tuesday. Just saying.
     
  3. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    Re: ... Untoaster Update ...

    Along these lines I'd add the CMB-DCU game. There are actually no bad results for NYR in the CMB-DCU game. Some results are better than others, but which result is best is actually debatable. The mere fact that the 9th and 10th place teams are going to take points from each other one way or another is enough to help NYR.
     
  4. GreatGonzo

    GreatGonzo Member+

    Jul 1, 1999
    MA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Re: ... Untoaster Update ...

    If DC loses or ties to Columbus today, then we get to look at some really interesting "true" magic numbers due to the POR@DC and SKC@DC games. Those two games plus the HOU@POR and NYRB@SKC are the real wrenches in determining the maximum number of points a team can have and still not make the playoffs.

    As of right now, just looking at number of remaining games, the 11th best MPP is 49, with 10-12 at that number. However, thanks to the HOU@POR and NYRB@SKC games, the "true" number to look at for 11th best MPP for the magic number calculation is actually 48. HOU and POR are both on 49, so a victory for one of those teams drops the other off from 49. SKC is at 51 MPP, while NYRB is the other 49 MPP team. The scenario that results in the highest 11th MPP is NY winning, dropping SKC to 48 MPP.

    Code:
              HOU  POR  DRAW
    HOU  49   [COLOR="Red"]49   46[/COLOR]   47
    POR  49   [COLOR="Red"]46   49[/COLOR]   47
    
    Code:
              SKC  NYR  DRAW
    SKC  51   51   [COLOR="Red"]48[/COLOR]   49
    NYR  49   46   [COLOR="Red"]49[/COLOR]   47
    
    MPP chart with those results:
    1 - 7: LAG, SEA, RSL, FCD, COL, PHI, DC
    8: CLB 50
    9: HOU or POR 49
    10: NYRB 49
    11: SKC 48

    I'm waiting for the DC - CLB result today to work out the remaining DC games. It's possible that the "true" number is actually 47 already. If DC ties or loses, I'm pretty sure it will be 47. At the very least, I'm sure it won't go down to 46.
     
  5. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    Re: ... Untoaster Update ...

    As a lay person, it seems like DC winning is the least desirable result - but y'all can probably point out why that may be wrong. At the end of the day - with so few games, the real question seems to be whether NY can get any wins to even think about 46 points.

    NY fans probably should be rooting for Philly to clinch so their game at the end of the season means nothing to Philly, assuming Red Bull still have something to play for. So a draw may be best toward that end?
     
  6. RapidStorm

    RapidStorm Member+

    Jan 30, 2005
    Denver, CO
    For what it's worth, if DC does win today and Chivas loses, we'll have both DC and Columbus on 41 points and both CHV and SJE on a MPP of 41 points.

    So, head to head results for that potential 4-team eliminator:

    CHV: 2W (2-1 v SJE, 2-0 v SJE), 3D (0-0 v CLB, 3-3 v CLB, 2-2 v DCU), 1L (3-0 v DCU)

    CLB: 0W, 3D (0-0 v CHV, 3-3 v CHV, 0-0 v SJE), 2L (3-1 v DCU, 3-0 v SJE) *

    DCU: 3W (3-1 v CLB, 3-0 v CHV, 2-0 v SJE), 1D (2-2 v CHV), 1L (4-2 v SJE)*

    SJE: 2W (3-0 v CLB, 4-2 v DCU), 1D (0-0 v CLB), 3L (2-1 v CHV, 2-0 v CHV, 2-0 v DCU)

    And if CHV is not a part of that tiebreaker:


    CLB: 0W, 1D (0-0 v SJE), 2L (3-1 v DCU, 3-0 v SJE) *

    DCU: 2W (3-1 v CLB, 2-0 v SJE), 0D, 1L (4-2 v SJE)*

    SJE: 2W (3-0 v CLB, 4-2 v DCU), 1D (0-0 v CLB), 1L (2-0 v DCU)

    *Last game between DC-CLB today

    So unless I'm reading that wrong (or I need to add in NY, CHI and POR to the mix?) again, a win today by DC should eliminate SJE from playoff contention.
     
  7. GreatGonzo

    GreatGonzo Member+

    Jul 1, 1999
    MA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Re: ... Untoaster Update ...

    Code:
              HOU  POR  DRAW
    HOU  49   49   46   47
    POR  49   46   49   47
    
              SKC  NYR  DRAW
    SKC  51   51   48   49
    NYR  49   46   49   47
    
              DC   POR  DRAW
    DC   50   50   47   48
    POR  49   46   49   47
    
              DC   SKC  DRAW
    DC   50   50   47   48
    SKC  51   48   51   49
    
    I'm pretty sure the DC loss dropped the "true" 11th highest possible MPP to 47. I can't find any combination of results in the above games that puts an 11th place team at 48 points.

    Okay, trying to reason through this:

    There are 12 teams with an MPP of 48 or higher. We're looking to see if it's possible that 11 teams finish with 48 points or higher.

    Portland (49) vs Houston (49) means at least one team drops below 48 MPP.

    In order for NYRB (49) to not drop below 48, they have to beat SKC (51), which drops SKC to 48.

    SKC (new MPP is 48) plays DC (50), and it's impossible for there to be a result where both teams stay above 48 MPP. So it looks like the highest possible result for an 11th place team is 47 points.
     
  8. RapidStorm

    RapidStorm Member+

    Jan 30, 2005
    Denver, CO
    So, it's a ways out for this to be determined because of the international break, but for Dallas, Colorado and KC:

    A win, AND a draw/loss by two of HOU, NY, DC or POR clinches a place in the playoffs.

    PHI is a little more complicated, but they can also clinch by the weekend of the 15th, once all other relevant teams have completed their games.
     
  9. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    ... The Road to Toastville Edition ...

    Code:
    [B][U]         GP  GR  W   D   L   PTS PPG   PRJ MPP SE# T#  M#  WS# HD#   AD#   CNF[/U]
    [COLOR="Blue"]01  LAG  31  03  18  10  03  64  2.06  70  73  10  --  --  --  ----  ----  W
    02  SEA  31  03  16  09  06  57  1.84  63  66  03  --  --  --  ----  ----  W
    03  RSL  31  03  15  06  10  51  1.65  56  60  --  --  --  --  ----  ----  W[/COLOR]
    04  FCD  31  03  13  07  11  46  1.48  50  55  --  16  04  --  ----  ----  W
    05  PHI  31  03  10  14  07  44  1.42  48  53  --  14  06  --  0.33  0.29  E
    06  SKC  32  02  11  12  09  45  1.41  48  51  --  12  05  --  ----  ----  E
    07  COL  32  02  11  12  09  45  1.41  48  51  --  12  05  --  ----  ----  W
    08  CMB  32  02  12  08  12  44  1.38  47  50  --  11  06  --  0.50  0.44  E
    09  HOU  32  02  10  13  09  43  1.34  46  49  --  10  07  --  1.00  0.94  E
    10  NYR  31  03  08  16  07  40  1.29  44  49  --  10  10  --  1.67  1.62  E
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    11  POR  31  03  11  07  13  40  1.29  44  49  --  10  10  --  1.67  1.62  W
    12  DCU  30  04  09  11  10  38  1.27  43  50  --  11  12  --  1.75  1.72  E
    13  CHI  31  03  07  16  08  37  1.19  41  46  --  07  13  --  2.67  2.62  E
    14  CHV  32  02  08  12  12  36  1.13  38  42  --  03  14  --  ----  ----  W
    15  SJE  31  03  06  14  11  32  1.03  35  41  --  02  18  03  ----  ----  W
    [COLOR="Gray"]16  TFC  32  02  06  13  13  31  0.97  33  37  --  --  --  04  ----  ----  E
    17  NER  31  03  05  12  14  27  0.87  30  36  --  --  --  08  ----  ----  E
    18  VAN  30  04  04  10  16  22  0.73  25  34  --  --  --  13  ----  ----  W[/COLOR]
    
    Current AD-Baseline: 45 
    
    Down 1 since last update.
    Set by NYR’s 44 point, 1.29 PPG pace. [/B]
    Code:
    [B]GP = Games Played | GR = Games Remaining | PPG = Points Per Game
    MPP = Max Points Possible = PTS + (3 x GR)
    SE# = SS Elimination Number = MPP - (1st Place PTS) + 1 
    M# = Magic Number = (11th Highest MPP) – PTS + 1
    T# = Tragic Number = MPP – (10th Highest PTS) + 1
    WS# = Wooden Spoon # = (18th Highest MPP) - PTS +1
    HD# = Historical Despair Number = [URL="https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=24203471&postcount=1"]Full explanation[/URL]
    AD# = Actual Despair Number = [URL="https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=24203471&postcount=1"]Full explanation[/URL]
    
    - Sorted by PPG, then most GR, then MLS Tiebreakers.
    - Teams in [COLOR="Gray"]gray[/COLOR] have been eliminated from the playoffs.
    - Teams in [COLOR="Blue"]blue[/COLOR] have clinched a playoff spot.
    - Teams in [COLOR="Green"]green[/COLOR] are conference seeds.
    - Team in [COLOR="Brown"]brown[/COLOR] has won the Wooden Spoon.
    - Teams in [I]italics[/I] are conference champions.[/B]
    Code:
    [B][U]Pace: Deviation from 3 at home, 1 on the road[/U]
    
    [U]         GP  PTS HG  AG  HW  HD  HL  AW  AD  AL  PCE[/U]
    01  LAG  31  64  16  15  11  05  00  07  05  03  01
    02  SEA  31  57  15  16  08  04  03  08  05  03  -04
    03  RSL  31  51  16  15  10  03  03  05  03  07  -12
    04  FCD  31  46  16  15  08  03  05  05  04  06  -17
    05  PHI  31  44  16  15  07  08  01  03  06  06  -19
    06  SKC  32  45  16  16  08  06  02  03  06  07  -19
    07  COL  32  45  16  16  06  08  02  05  04  07  -19
    08  DCU  30  38  14  16  04  07  03  05  04  07  -20
    09  NYR  31  40  15  16  06  06  03  02  10  04  -21
    10  HOU  32  43  16  16  09  04  03  01  09  06  -21
    11  CMB  32  44  17  15  09  05  03  03  03  09  -22
    12  POR  31  40  16  15  09  03  04  02  04  09  -23
    13  CHI  31  37  15  16  05  08  02  02  08  06  -24
    14  CHV  32  36  16  16  05  05  06  03  07  06  -28
    15  SJE  31  32  16  15  04  08  04  02  06  07  -31
    16  TFC  32  31  16  16  05  07  04  01  06  09  -33
    17  NER  31  27  15  16  04  06  05  01  06  09  -34
    18  VAN  30  22  14  16  04  05  05  00  05  11  -36
    
    Sorted by PCE, then fewest GP, then PPG.[/B]
    Code:
    [B][U]PPG: Home and Away[/U]
    
    [U]         HPPG             APPG[/U]
    01  LAG  2.38    01  SEA  1.81
    02  RSL  2.06    02  LAG  1.73
    03  HOU  1.94    03  FCD  1.27
    04  CMB  1.88    04  RSL  1.20
    05  POR  1.88    05  DCU  1.19
    06  SKC  1.88    06  COL  1.19
    07  SEA  1.87    07  CHV  1.00
    08  PHI  1.81    08  PHI  1.00
    09  FCD  1.69    09  NYR  1.00
    10  COL  1.63    10  SKC  0.94
    11  NYR  1.60    11  CHI  0.88
    12  CHI  1.53    12  CMB  0.80
    13  TFC  1.38    13  SJE  0.80
    14  DCU  1.36    14  HOU  0.75
    15  SJE  1.25    15  POR  0.67
    16  CHV  1.25    16  NER  0.56
    17  VAN  1.21    17  TFC  0.56
    18  NER  1.20    18  VAN  0.31[/B]
    Code:
    [B][U]Remaining League Schedule[/U]
    
    [U]      WK30  WK31  WK32[/U]
    CHI:  ----   FCD   CMB
          ----  @DCU  ----
    CMB:  ----  @NER  @CHI
    COL:  ----   RSL  @VAN
    CHV:  ----  @LAG   SEA
    DCU:  ----  @VAN   POR
          ----   CHI   SKC
    FCD:  ----  @CHI  @SJE
          ----   VAN  ----
    HOU:  ----  @POR   LAG
    LAG:  @NYR   CHV  @HOU
    NER:   SJE   CMB  @TFC
    NYR:   LAG  @SKC   PHI
    PHI:  @SEA   TFC  @NYR
    POR:  ----   HOU  @DCU
          ----  ----  @RSL
    RSL:  @VAN  @COL   POR
    SEA:   PHI   SJE  @CHV
    SJE:  @NER  @SEA   FCD
    SKC:  ----   NYR  @DCU
    TFC:  ----  @PHI   NER
    VAN:   RSL   DCU   COL
          ----  @FCD  ----[/B]
    Code:
    [B][U]Remaining Strength of Schedule[/U]
    (Factoring Opponent Home and Away Performance)
    
    01  CHV:  2.09
    02  HOU:  1.80
    03  NYR:  1.54
    04  LAG:  1.51
    06  SJE:  1.44
    07  POR:  1.39
    05  CMB:  1.37
    08  PHI:  1.34
    09  VAN:  1.32
    10  COL:  1.21
    11  TFC:  1.19
    12  SKC:  1.18
    13  RSL:  1.17
    15  CHI:  1.14
    14  FCD:  1.03
    16  SEA:  1.02
    17  NER:  0.99
    18  DCU:  0.92[/B]
    Code:
    [B][U]MLS Numbers Resources[/U]
    
    [URL="http://www.sportsclubstats.com/USA/MLS.html"]SportsClubStats[/URL] [URL="http://playoffstatus.com/mls/mls.html"]PlayoffStatus[/URL]
    [URL="http://usasoccer.blogspot.com/"]Climbing The Ladder[/URL]
    [URL="http://www.settingthetable.info/home.asp"]Setting The Table[/URL]
    [URL="http://www.mlssoccer.com/playoffstandings"]MLSSoccer's Playoff Table[/URL]
    [URL="http://www.mlssoccer.com/competition-rules-and-regulations"]MLS Playoff Tiebreakers[/URL]
    [URL="http://soccernet.espn.go.com/tables?league=usa.1&cc=5901"]ESPN Soccernet's MLS Table[/URL] 
    
    Please suggest others.[/B]
    Notes

    That ass you see is NYR backing into the 10th playoff spot.

    This was not NYR's doing. Their draw didn't count for much. For their current position, NYR can thank DCU's failure against CMB and the fact that they own the tiebreaker against POR. (From here on out MLS tiebreakers are the third and final ranking criteria on the main table.) NYR is in prime position to make the playoffs. MLS HQ must be thrilled.

    If NYR is in prime position for the playoffs, then so is POR. Both teams have identical records. And sitting at 40 points with three games left, the playoffs should be theirs if they want it. Unless ...

    Yes, unless. Unless the bar for playoff entrance goes above 45 points. And looking at the table, seeing how many points top 10 teams already have, seeing how many games they all have left (two or three), there's a real possibility that the bar for playoff entrance is going to be a bit higher than expected. Yes, it took a 1 point downturn this week. But it could go up again by a point or two just as fast. (That said, good chance HOU keeps the bar low -- maybe even at 43 points.)

    What about CHV and PHI? That game really didn't matter. Both teams got one point. And that point changed nothing for either side. CHV might as well already be eliminated from playoff contention. PHI needs just a couple more points to all but clinch a playoff spot.

    So what about DCU? They were the big downward movers today. Yeah, they really blew it. Squandered a lead and everything. The own-goal made it special.

    Does this mean DCU is toast? They've got 4 games left. The numbers they need to get back into contention aren't that off the wall. Heck, they're barely worse than NYR and POR and those two teams are in great position! Indeed, their numbers are a whole lot better than CHI's numbers and people were swearing just recently on this thread that CHI had a realistic playoff shot. Oh, and look at DCU's schedule! Easiest of the entire league. So DCU is in great shape, right? Not toast at all, right? After three years of playoff drought, the rain is finally coming, right? Right ...

    DCU's not toast. But DCU is definitely on its way to becoming toast. Can they turn it around? You mean numerically? Sure, they can. Why not?

    This is my team and I'll tell you why not. Without DeRo, we're not even in the conversation. With DeRo, DCU still doesn't have the depth or the quality. DCU may get another result or two. They may push along into the final week. But let's get real here: it just ain't happening for DCU.

    What's gonna happen is the road to Toastville -- you know that place just down the way from the town of Starting Ngwenya.

    ... four f'cking years in a row ...
     
  10. jayd8888

    jayd8888 Member+

    Aug 22, 2006
    Denver CO
    Re: ... The Road to Toastville Edition ...

    DCU's success aside you still have the best thread in all of the Internet.
     
  11. scaryice

    scaryice Member

    Jan 25, 2001
    You know, we wouldn't be having any less drama if the top 8 made the playoffs this year rather than the top 10. I just mention this in response to the people a few pages back who love the new format.
     
  12. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    Will that continue to be true with 2 and 1 game left in the season? Seems like there would be less likelihood of as many teams with chances in the last game.
     
  13. RapidStorm

    RapidStorm Member+

    Jan 30, 2005
    Denver, CO
    Seems to depend on how drama is defined. Meaning, with this 10-team format, San Jose, Chivas, Chicago, and DC all will still have life for the next week or two, whereas in the old 8 team format they wouldn't.

    But on the flip side, unless the results unfold perfectly in the next 10-ish days, there's still a good chance we'd still have just 3 teams with clinched playoff spots at this point in the 8-team set up. For Colorado, Dallas, KC, Columbus and Philly, it could still take until the last week for them to clinch their spots.

    But really, I think scaryice is making his point because of his aversion to 2008 NY-type mediocre teams qualifying for the playoffs :p
     
  14. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    Hey - at least we didn't have the nerve to win it all unlike Colorado and Salt Lake. But I would define more drama as more fans interested and believing their team has a chance.
     
  15. Father Ted

    Father Ted BigSoccer Supporter

    Manchester United, Galway United, New York Red Bulls
    Nov 2, 2001
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    No to mention 2010 Colorado-types :p
     
  16. RapidStorm

    RapidStorm Member+

    Jan 30, 2005
    Denver, CO
    True, but at least we had the nerve to finish above .500 when doing so :p

    I know scaryice has ranted about both scenarios, but I seem to remember that year and that NY team bothering him more than any.
     
  17. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If GreatGonzo's post right before yours is correct and the true MPP is only 47 then that AND is actually an OR, since a win by those 3 teams puts them at least at 48 and over the MPP, regardless of what happens in the other games.
     
  18. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    Spent a few minutes mulling tomorrow's LAG@NYR game. I don't think there's been a game this season with bigger playoff implications. If NYR loses, I don't know if they'd recover. They'd probably have to win both of their remaining games @SKC and PHI. Those teams will be vying for top 3 status, if not 1st in the East, so neither of those games will be easy. Without a viable NYR, the playoff race could wrap up pretty quickly.
     
  19. RapidStorm

    RapidStorm Member+

    Jan 30, 2005
    Denver, CO
    So you're saying it's already wrapped up?
     
  20. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    I'm not sure I buy this - but I think Red Bull will probably get at least a point tomorrow. And playing for positioning is a different kind of motivation than playing for your playoff life, although Red Bull hasn't shown all that much fire despite they've had a lot of games to make a playoff push.

    NY really is a different team though if everyone is healthy. If I had to guess, I'd say a win tomorrow, a loss to KC and a coin flip to get a draw or win against Philly.
     
  21. FlashMan

    FlashMan Member

    Jan 6, 2000
    'diego
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It helps Red Bull tomorrow night that neither Donovan nor Keane is playing for LAG (one cause of injury; the other cause of international duty). Red Bull caught a break with that.
     
  22. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    Not to mention that this is their 9th game in about a month - that's a pretty brutal stretch of games.
     
  23. Hachiko

    Hachiko The Akita on Big Soccer

    Jun 8, 2005
    Long Beach, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And that's what I've been saying: don't count the Red Bulls out. This playing field gets a little bit even with LA playing without Donovan and Keane.
     
  24. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    I just noticed something about the schedule that may have a very large effect on the playoff race. October 22-23 is the last weekend of the MLS regular season. There's only 1 game on Sunday the 23rd. But it's a doozy: LAG@HOU.

    So here's the thing. LAG will know 100% for certain before that game whether or not it is already the SS winner. In fact, LAG will likely know a week or two before that final weekend - all that's needed is a SEA loss, an LAG win, or an LAG draw plus a SEA draw. And LAG plays CHV the week before, so there's your likely win. That means, there's an extremely strong likelihood that LAG won't have anything at all to play for in that last game. It will have already won everything it can in the regular season.

    Is Bruce really going to take his first team halfway across the country to face a team who will probably have everything to play for, and who will be looking to do whatever is necessary to get a win? I doubt it. Likelihood is, in this final game of the MLS regular season HOU is going to beat a bunch of LAG reserves into the ground.

    So here I've been looking at the schedule, but not looking at the actual calendar, and I've been thinking there's a chance HOU loses its last two games and ends the season at 43 points. Now I'm thinking that's not likely to happen. More likely is that HOU is going to end the season with no less than 46 points.
     
  25. GalaxyKoa

    GalaxyKoa Member+

    Jul 18, 2007
    North County
    Club:
    Los Angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You're probably right, I mean Columbus kicked our reserves' ass when we sent them out there...
     

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