The 111 All-Time Greatest Bundesliga Games

Discussion in 'Germany' started by Gregoriak, Aug 8, 2006.

  1. pfg68

    pfg68 New Member

    May 15, 2007
    From memory Juergen Grabowski turned 30 on the day of the 1974 World Cup final (a good way to celebrate!) so I think he's older than Gerd Mueller but younger than Wolfang Overath.
     
  2. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    I have uploaded the highlights of the following game to YouTube:

    [youtube]B_qf_a0l_w0[/youtube]

     
  3. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Great idea to revive this! Interesting to see that Bayern played with a 4-4-2 in that game. You would think that they played a 4-3-3 like most team in that era.

    There was an article talking about the 3-5-2 formation and they even mention how German teams used it. It reminded me of this thread and how the West German teams of the 80s used it a lot.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2008/nov/19/argentina-napoli

    Thoughts?
     
  4. Borussia

    Borussia Member+

    Jun 5, 2006
    Fürth near Nuremberg
    Club:
    Borussia Mönchengladbach
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Yep, the 3:5:2 is definitely dying. ;)
     
  5. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    I have prepared the highlights for the following game:

    [youtube]FrgfZzNHo_Y[/youtube]

     
  6. hackespitze123

    Jul 24, 2008
    Germany
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    It's coming back. As cynical as it may sound, but since ~20% of the children in Germany live in poverty these days (official numbers), the so called "Straßenfußballer" is having a renaissance. And then there is the considerably better education of young talents after the reforms in the last few years, with a much higher emphasis on technique. The new generation of players coming through actually does remind me of the 'golden generation' of the 70s when it comes to technique and football skills in general.

    But not when it comes to personality and 'presence' on the pitch (not just in Germany though), as Sammer rightly pointed out. He hopefully will be successful in implemeting his ideas to change this.
     
  7. deleted

    deleted Member

    Aug 18, 2006
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    what did he mean by personality and presence? Its the whole media training and all that crap isnt it


    btw, rep to G for the last highlights
     
  8. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich

    A very interesting article. I think the origin of the 3-5-2 cannot really be traced back to Bilardo's Argentina. The basic element, the shift from 4 defenders (2 full backs, 2 central defenders or 1 sweeper and a stopper) in the 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 to three defenders (1 sweeper, 2 markers) in the 3-5-2 took place in club football before Bilardo took over Argentina in 1984.

    Only speaking for Germany, Hamburg's Ernst Happel started to move the two full backs Manfred Kaltz and Bernd Wehmeyer into midfield positions in the 1981-82 season (not in all games, but in some, especially at home).

    So Hamburg often lined-up like this:


    --Bastrup--Hrubesch--Milewski

    --------Magath----Hartwig
    Wehmeyer---------------Kaltz

    -------Groh--------Jakobs
    ----------Hieronymus

    -------------Stein

    Not a true 3-5-2 but the important shift in defense was already practised.

    In 1983-84, VfB Stuttgart applied the same defensive system with a sweeper and two markers as three-man defense and a five-man or four-man midfield.

    And already in 1973, Bayern Munich - at least in home games - did use Paul Breitner (nominal full back) as a midfield player, with right back Johnny Hansen and stopper Katsche Schwarzenbeck as primary markers and Beckenbauer as a quasi-midfield playmaker (playing some kind of 2-5-3).
     
  9. hackespitze123

    Jul 24, 2008
    Germany
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    No, that's not it. It's about teaching young players to take responsibility, to 'strenghten' them mentally so they can prevail in crucial high pressure situations, to learn to lead etc. - the so called 'winner mentality'.
    The DFB introduced team councils on the U16 level and higher, for example, just like in the senior team. It's about forming chracters, leaders, and learning to cope with team structures and so on.

    Sammer interview (German):

    http://www.spox.com/de/sport/fussball/0807/Artikel/sammer-u19-zukunft.html
     
  10. deleted

    deleted Member

    Aug 18, 2006
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    ah, i see what you mean

    i guess you're right, although they showed admirable amounts of those qualities at the euro but not at the WC as much
     
  11. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    So Gregoriak, would the recent Bayern 2:1 Hoffenheim match had a place in this thread?
    Whereabouts, top 50, top 40...?
     
  12. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Sounds like a 3-4-3 really but you've made a valid point on the defensive structure. I'm still not sure about the two forwards though. Valdano and Maradona were the two forwards in Argentina's 1986 World cup team but I'm sure you would notice some German teams playing with that defensive structure, five midfielders and only two forwards.
     
  13. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Next one:

    [youtube]gwBPzyFX8WY[/youtube]

     
  14. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Well, hard to tell. This ranking was not a result of a scientific approach ... gut feeling did play a not unimportant role ... the hype surrounding this Bayern Hoffenheim game is turning me off a bit though. Ask me again in ten years. :D
     
  15. deleted

    deleted Member

    Aug 18, 2006
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    hey G, gerd mueller played in midfield against nuernberg?
     
  16. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich

    Goalgetter Gerd Müller had been moved back to operate in the midfield but the only effect was that his marker Ludwig 'Luggi' Müller was given the opportunity to move forward into the midfield where he excelled as a driving motor behind most of Nuremberg's actions. Bayern's center forward in that game, Rainer 'Oki' Ohlhauser, moved a lot up front but whatever he did he couldn't escape Karl-Heinz Ferschl, while Dieter 'Mucki' Brenninger had a hard time dealing with Horst Leupold.
     
  17. deleted

    deleted Member

    Aug 18, 2006
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    any particular reason why gerd mueller was moved into midfield? seems strange to me. what was the original thinking
     
  18. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Possibly to surprise the opponents, to get Ludwig Müller out of the center of defense (he was one of Germany's best stoppers of the 1960s), as there was firm man-marking and no zonal marking. Sometimes tactics like that did work quite well in the age of close man-to-man marking but it didn't in this game, as Ludwig Müller was more than capable of not only covering Müller in midfield but also of increasing the pressure on Bayern's goal. Actually it wasn't such a rare move in those days to see Gerd Müller play a bit deeper. Bayern had another player who could act as center forward (Rainer Ohlhauser, like in this game).
     
  19. deleted

    deleted Member

    Aug 18, 2006
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    i see, thanks!

    mueller had very underrated ball skills
     
  20. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Another one:

    [youtube]c_DGTMz-fno[/youtube]

     
  21. Borussia

    Borussia Member+

    Jun 5, 2006
    Fürth near Nuremberg
    Club:
    Borussia Mönchengladbach
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Great clips!
     
  22. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    [youtube]wEQiLGz5e3w[/youtube]

     
  23. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Check out Kremers with the flick at the end of the Bayern Munich 5-1 FC Schalke 04 match!
     
  24. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    The short highlights of this game (which is not part of the 111 games featured in this thread) show Borussia Mönchengladbach winning their first German championship in 1970. Gives a bit of a taste of the ridiculously offensive ways of Mönchengladbach in the late-60s/early-70s:

    [youtube]X__TOARtoz0[/youtube]
     
  25. BongartzUndRivera

    Sep 24, 2004
    NYC
    Club:
    SS Lazio Roma
    In the 5-5 match, it was probably the best match that Erwinb Kremers ever played. Wonder which goal had beaten Erwin's goal for Tor Der Monats....

    The score sheet of 5-1 was a dissapointment as a season decider on the last match of the season played among contenders, but Bayern were too strong when they played with concentration back then.

    Schalke had a tremendous 71/72 season as they were 2nd (again could have become champs if they had won Bayern on the last day) and won the DFB Pokal (5-0 again Kaiserslautern in Hanover) despite having problems with the match fix scandal in 70/71 season, but I think they achived that result becuase of the scandal as worries had pulled up club together though they really had a great mannschaft.

    So maybe a NO scandal have resulted to a NO 2nd place in my opinion, but what if S04 won in that final match in Munich?
    -Would DFB forgive or lessen the penalties of those players involved?

    Or if there were no scandals or if Offenbach's chairman Horst Canellas had shut his mouth about the match fix?
    -Would they have advanced further at the 72/73 Euro Cup Winners Cup?
    -What would have happened to the World Cup squad of 1974 with the players who were banned? Would Libuda's career have exteneded as a decent player for another couple of seasons?


    It wasn't the last time Die Knappen missed the championship on the last day of the season (76/77, 00/01), but the team of 71/72 left a lot of IFs & BUTs.
     

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