Post-match: Thank You Greg Berhalter

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by FoxBoro 143, Dec 3, 2022.

  1. Pestbeulen

    Pestbeulen Member

    Aug 14, 2010
    This. A thousand times. Really well said.

    This team is talented and exciting. But young and naive. Lots of quality, but lacking in a talismanic figure, a Donovan or a Dempsey.

    Pulisic may be on his way to that. We'll see.

    But up and down the roster, there is so much young quality. Aaronson and Reyna didn't even start! (Admittedly, with some controversy.)

    Most exciting to me is that I don't think this is a golden generation, a one-off, with several generational players being born around the same time. I think this is the new developmental reality. The net is being cast wider. The pipeline is bigger now. Choose your analogy.

    I predict more talented youth coming through, and selection getting even more competitive. It's exciting.

    I hope the next coach remains committed to incorporating our young players, and we don't just double down on basically this same roster for four more years.

    Sent from my SM-A515F using BigSoccer mobile app
     
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  2. YNWA Rob

    YNWA Rob Member+

    Liverpool FC
    United States
    Nov 12, 2020
    Indiana
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Does anyone know the actual length of his contract? He said something about taking the next few weeks think it over, but shouldn't there be a decision on renewing his contract.rather than one between firing him vs him staying on w the same contract for years to come?
     
  3. imasyko

    imasyko Member+

    May 16, 2002
    Spring City, PA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think the USSF extends Berhalter for two years and pulls the trigger on a new coach 2 years ahead of the next WC, based on whether they see this side progressing till then. I doubt they fire Berhalter after all he has done to this point.
     
  4. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I hope they don’t do that. Give the new coach the full 4 years.
     
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  5. fishmonger

    fishmonger Member

    Jul 2, 2014
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    I don't overrate our talent. But I watched most of the games under his tenure. He squeaked out wins against minnows. Yes, that was bad. BUT, given the talent that has been hyped by all here, he did less with more as compared to other coaches. And that is the feeling of most people that I talk to. For shit's sake, you have an opposing coach flat out saying the guy didn't adjust. Show me a team like Japan, that can make it out of the group and take a few big scalps with them at the same time. Not dreary ties and once again, one freakin win in four games, against a lower ranked team. I've seen coaches do more with less; Bora did, Arena did. Bradley did. Gregg, whom I like as a person, and can relate to being from NJ, managed to do less with more.
     
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  6. don Lamb

    don Lamb Member+

    mine
    United States
    Aug 31, 2017
    You really think that Roldan and Yedlin would be in the plans for 2026? You must have been one of those who insisted that guys like Trapp, Zardes, Lletget, etc. would never be dropped.......
     
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  7. imasyko

    imasyko Member+

    May 16, 2002
    Spring City, PA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agreed. He's taken this team as far as he can.
     
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  8. Burr

    Burr Member+

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Jul 8, 2014
    Tampa, FL
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think we've already reached the limit of what Berhalter can do for this team. As frustrating as the lack of offense was it was refreshing to see us sustain midfield play in a way Klinsmann clearly always wanted but could never manage. We're back to where we left off in 2014, but with a much more promising base longterm. Now is the time to capitalize on it with a strong hire and better development of our forwards and defense.
     
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  9. bct81

    bct81 Member+

    multiple (DC United, Dortmund, Chelsea, Arsenal, Juve ....)
    United States
    Mar 17, 2007
    moving around the US every few years ....
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I like that Egg has pulled in all the talent and developed a great set of relationships, he has developed a mentality of controlled possession and he has helped this nucleus of players form a true team. Kudos to Greg for his dedication and professionalism and the general example he sets. But he has hit his limit with this team at this time.

    We are not moving the ball quickly enough in the final third.

    His squad rotation approach is questionable. It results in team fatigue during tournaments.

    His opponents have figured how to play rope a dope against us (not only in the WC but also in CONCACAAF).

    He does not coach his teams to bury opponents.

    He has not coached the US to be clinical.

    Set piece and free kick tactics are poor.

    Earnie Stewart and Brian McBride need to think through this carefully.
     
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  10. dna77054

    dna77054 Member+

    Jun 28, 2003
    houston
    One thing I liked about Greg was his insistence of trying to play out of the back. Yes, it was ugly initially and blew up in our faces in some friendlies, but we made real progress with it and I think it really paid off in this WC as we were able to move the ball with possession from defense to offense better than imho we ever have before. I think that ability and mentality may be his most important legacy.
     
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  11. bakerkdb

    bakerkdb Member

    Sep 6, 2010
    Club:
    Norwich City FC
    Nope. It’s my opinion, I did fine all the way through. Your entitled to your own…even if it’s wrong
     
  12. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This list of players publicly backing Gregg vs those who hasn't said anything is exhibit a for WHY Gregg should 100% not be back as coach :laugh:



    article:
    https://www.foxsports.com/stories/soccer/usmnt-players-support-berhalters-return-as-coach
     
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  13. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Well, this is some terrible horseshit.

    Yes, that's my point. You've completely bought into hype. The US performed to expectations in the World Cup. We aren't a more talented team than the Dutch, and we aren't a Top 8 team, no matter how you cut it.

    Statistical models gave us anywhere from a 25%-33% chanced of winning going in. We were a Pot 2 team. If you simply look at the talent on the teams, we were not favored.

    This is exactly to expectations of where we should go out.

    There's nothing about that performance that is "BAD." Bad is a 2 out of 10. It's a D or an F. If Berhalter is "bad" what is Hansi Flick, who took Germany out in the groups? Horrific? Italy's coach? Apocalyptic?

    Our performance in the World Cup was to expectations. Anything else is American-fueled delusion. And even if with our struggles at times in qualifying, no one ever dominates CCAF qualifying like that, and between out injuries, etc., it was hardly "BAD."

    You should try thinking for yourself for once. Or actually talking to someone who isn't jacked up on hype. I have a lot of foreign friends and there's a real consistent thing here: Americans wildly overrate our players.

    They are good. But people need to take a look at some of these other rosters. We're in the 10-20 group. We don't have a better roster than say, Morocco. We just know the players better. Certainly not the Dutch.

    You should probably read the full quote in context. It's actually not this explicit criticism you think it is. In context, it's more of a conversation about our increasing talent.

    We lost against the Dutch on execution. LVG -- one of the best tacticians in the world -- did come up with a good defensive plan to screw with us -- but they scored on failures.

    Good lord, it's like you don't even watch the sport. It's the freaking World Cup and we advanced. A tie against England is somehow "BAD." This is just the dumbest ********ing argument.

    The sport has ties. I could list all the superior teams that tied or even lost in this tournament -- Argentina is a title favorite, had won like 35 straight coming in ... and lost to SA.

    Welcome to tournament soccer. You just gave credit to van Gaal -- he'd call your comment clueless on how to play in a tourney.

    Some of these guys are excellent coaches, but I'd disagree on a whole lot of points. Arena had a great run in 2002, but bombed out in 2006. Again, if Gregg was BAD hitting expectations of talent what was Arena in 2006?

    We've had some good runs, but it's clear you don't really watch a ton of tournament soccer. There's a lot of luck in our prior successes, a lot of scraping by. Our 2010 was probably our most talent + actually being prime age, and we won the group ... but lost to a Ghana team we outplayed. Was Bradley good or bad?

    If you take this team, there's a ton of potential, but if you look at that 2010 team, it's super talented and the players are 27, 28.

    --------------

    All of this comes down to ... this team met talent expectations in the World Cup. We're not a Top 8 team, period.

    You seem to be arguing that someone who doesn't massively outperform expectations is BAD, which is absurd.

    And you also don't seem to understand how often there are ties in soccer, especially tournament soccer.
     
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  14. Master O

    Master O Member+

    Jul 7, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    US Soccer accepts mediocrity, so I won't be surprised when Gregg is rehired.
     
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  15. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I want to take Berhalter out of this; this is not an argument that he's a great coach or that he should continue.

    But the pace of ball movement is something Berhalter constantly harps on. It's like 50% of his halftime commentary on what we need to do.

    And it's not just the final third. It's across the board. I think people need to be prepared for the idea that many of the players either are not capable because of touch, vision, passing or are not predisposed to it -- we have guys who like to consider the dribble first.

    I think a national team coach can emphasize it, and I think a national team coach can drill a bit until there are some patterns players are really comfortable with, but this is largely out of their hands if true.

    I welcome the shit storm if and when a higher profile benches a more talented player for a less talented player who moves the ball faster.

    But I'd be concerned the latter doesn't exist much in our pool.

    Playing defensively and countering is not exactly a new concept or unique to the US. We covered counters really well until we made dumb mistakes against the Dutch. I really don't think that was an issue at all.

    Scoring against a bunker is tough for every team. I don't think a new coach is suddenly going to solve that.

    Eh, he coaches defensive. That's absolutely the right call if you want to go deep in a tournament and you don't have an overwhelming advantage. Trying to bury opponents makes sense in the Gold Cup, not the World Cup.

    Not a National Team coach's job nor will any coach we hire be able to do that.

    Indeed. This hire is much harder than people think.
     
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  16. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I'll take this as a good sign.

    When Berhalter was hired, you guaranteed we wouldn't make the World Cup.
    When we qualified for the World Cup, you said we wouldn't make it out of the group.
     
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  17. fishmonger

    fishmonger Member

    Jul 2, 2014
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Well....living in a house full of Colombians for over 30 years, who know more about the game and its history than most, I think I have learned a thing or two about foreign perspectives, and I know a thing or two about the game. My dad was Italian and played quite a bit too. And I've watched a lot of tournaments over 30 years as well.
    My thesis is thus ( former English teacher ) that we have been told by knowledgeable people that this is the most talented group ever assembled. If true, Gregg failed to move the needle. It was not a tough group, and he managed only one win. And his team gave up more goals in the 2nd round than previous teams. I don't see any valid argument to change that. We're just batting the breeze here, not arguing before the SCOTUS. Peace.
     
  18. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wouldn't oppose bringing Gregg back for another cycle, but I'm not really in favor of it, either.

    Gregg Berhalter did a hell of a job. With a very young core of players, he won a Nations League, won a Gold Cup, made Mexico our bitch again, qualified for the World Cup, and got out of the group. He did his job. He made a bad team good again.

    I don't know if he's the guy to make a good team great. But he did what he was supposed to do.
     
  19. gjackson2207

    gjackson2207 Member

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Are we going to do Stonehenge tomorrow?

    It sounds to me like the ball is in Berhalter’s court and he might have a slight lean towards returning to the club game. Anyone know the truthiness level of this?
     
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  20. bct81

    bct81 Member+

    multiple (DC United, Dortmund, Chelsea, Arsenal, Juve ....)
    United States
    Mar 17, 2007
    moving around the US every few years ....
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    pretty clear that your aspirations are firmly to be average.

    you don’t get better by accepting mediocrity.

    much of your logic is based on limitations of the players.

    the logic I am providing is based on the limitations of the coach. I refuse to accept mediocrity in our refs, coaches or expectations.

    time and again Greg coaches the squad to get a goal and then everything slows down and gets conservative.

    I think Greg did phenomenal with player recruitment and atmosphere and man management - that is where he is strong and USSF should keep him in that role.

    but when it comes to tactics, squad rotation, and training he has serious gaps.

    set pieces and free kicks and corner kicks under Egg have been a black hole.

    my point about possession in the final third is very simple - that is where one touch bang bang play is imperative and it was pretty clear over the qualifying cycle that we either could not do it (our players) or he did not train it. We could not generate goals except on the counter …. And perhaps we should not strive for possession but should sit back and contain and play to our strengths. All that possession is tiring and if it does not generate goals what is the point? Simply to deny the opponent the ball so you can be zero zero at the end of the game?

    To be clear - Berhalter never coaches to bury the opponent even in a friendly - that is part of the problem.
     
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  21. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Ugh. My least favorite argument.

    Improvement does not come from just setting standards and setting unreasonable standards, such as unattainable goals on short timelines, can be counterproductive to decision making.

    If you have a problem / want to improve, you come up with a specific plan. Not pretend that all you have to do is set a higher standard. Standards without specific direction are a recipe for disaster.

    Standards without evaluating a reasonable standard are a massive recipe for overreaction and discontent.

    Yes, I do. How do you evaluate a coach, especially a national team coach, otherwise?

    If you do not diagnose root causes, then you risk changing something that is not the problem to something worse.

    Let's take this combo of ignoring context/root causes and "not accepting mediocrity" to logical extremes:

    This player pool was never going to win the World Cup this year. There's not a coach out there that could do it. If we refused to accept mediocrity and ignored the limitations of the players, we would literally fire the best coach in the world if the players weren't good enough. That's silly.

    Coaches need to be evaluated in context of the talent.

    I don't even understand how there is a debate?

    In the context of this point you even somewhat agree with me:

    We're not a good passing team. This is often true at Club, too, which is the tipping point for me. Pulisic holds onto the ball too much. McKennie is moved out of the middle. Musah dribbles too much, etc.

    This isn't to excuse Berhalter 100% on the offense. But on this point ... our players slow shit down. Our coach is constantly screaming to move faster. Our players at club are not strong scorers or assisters and have a tendency to overdribble.

    This isn't that hard. Ding Berhalter for not getting them to change, but I just kind of wonder if any national team coach could. It's simply not a strong skillset for us.

    The challenge is, to score against a set defense ... that's like how you do it. That's the #1 way. It's also the best way to break a press.

    There's plenty other to complain about -- this has no effect on set pieces or too many crosses (although related), although it is related to the poor transition decision making.
     
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  22. ReynaRanger

    ReynaRanger Member

    Fulham
    United States
    May 23, 2021
    #97 ReynaRanger, Dec 4, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2022
    I came here to say the same thing. I don't think fans have quite processed that, even if we've made the knock-out rounds before, the team's overall performance was much better than it had been in previous Cups.

    2002? A good team (that had almost everything go right before and during the tourney) but one that was content to sit back and counter-attack, like a lot of underdog teams.

    2010? For my money, just a year removed from the best USMNT ever (though no Charlie Davies). Emerged from a very easy group and was eliminated in the knock-out round to a decent-but-not-great Ghana.

    2014? Thanks God for Jermaine Jones, but the drop-off from the team's best players was steep. We were dominated by Belgium in a way that doesn't seem possible for the current team, regardless of the score.

    This team could hold the ball and take it to almost the very best of foes. We've never -- never -- scored a goal like the one we did against Iran, and we've never gone toe-to-toe with an elite squad as we did against England. (You'll find more talent on the current England's teams bench than the 2002 German team, which was good but overachieved greatly).

    I'm sorry it unraveled a bit against the Dutch. And I'm more sorry Berhalter couldn't install a tactical alignment that let us create more chances, or that he did a poor job cultivating backup 8s and left Pepi off the roster (a big mistake IMO).

    But my view of his tenure ultimately comes down to thinking A) He inherited a genuine mess with zero guarantee of success by '22 B) The team enters then next cycle in a clear-cut better position than it ever has before. So, indeed, it's probably time to move on -- maybe for both team and coach -- but just be ready in a decade when people look back at Berhalter's tenure and conclude no USMNT manager has ever had a better four-year stretch.

    I'd add by saying anyone -- anyone -- told in 2017 what the squad would look like in five years would be *ecstatic*. We climbed from the program's worst depths in 40 years to land in its most promising place ever.
     
  23. ReynaRanger

    ReynaRanger Member

    Fulham
    United States
    May 23, 2021
    There's a view about political punditry called the "Green Lantern theory" of the presidency. I won't delve too deeply into details, but it basically stipulates that pundits always overrate the influence of the presidency, i.e., when people complain not being able to achieve a bipartisan breakthrough against an opposing party that hates him, or blames him for gas prices that are out of control of any president.

    Anyway, whatever you want to call it, there's a similar dynamic at play with Berhalter. He didn't coach them to not score another goal against Wales -- the players were in great position to score another goal and simply didn't take advantage. A game later, they spent most of the 90 on the front foot against England.

    Against Iran? Yes, they bunkered after subbing on Zimmerman. I think it was a defensible stance to take, given the level of fitness of the players on the field, and given how well Zimmerman played after entering. (It's also, frankly, a little bizarre to see fans complain endlessly about Berhalter's tactics after reading an almost endless amount of praise about Gregg's approach from neutral analysts.)

    The point being is we just attribute every last shortcoming of this squad to a deficiency with the coach, probably because they're easier to get rid of, and it's madness. Not only do our own players have a major say on the matter, but so does the other team -- in this case, one of the handful of most talented national teams in the world in a country steeped in tradition.

    My aspiration can be pretty damn high and still think what Berhalter achieved this cycle was worthy of praise.
     
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  24. RossD

    RossD Member

    Aug 17, 2013
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    I have no idea how getting to the round of 16 is average? To get to the next round you need to be one of the top 8 teams in the world. If any of you think we are that you're delusional. Screaming and yelling because the talent doesn't meet your unrealistic expectations is just dumb.
    Don't set unrealistic expectations and you won't be let down. And you can actually enjoy the ride too.
    Guarantee over the next 4 years we will not get enough competitive games to get us fully prepared. With the Nations League and small FIFA windows it's highly likely it's just not going to be feasible. We'll get games of course but not enough for probably any of us to be happy. So, if that's one of your expectations for the next 4 years (that we'll play a ton of games against Top 10 teams) you should already plan on being disappointed.
     
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  25. GiallorossiYank

    GiallorossiYank Member+

    Jan 20, 2011
    NJ/Roma/Napoli
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Had some really fun moments the last few years, he navigated COVID really well too.

    Thanks Gregg, and good luck
     
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