Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by FoxBoro 143, Dec 3, 2022.
I hope not, but I won’t be surprised
Maybe there are individual *players* who are having success. This *team* wasn’t any better than 2002. Berhalter had the tools. He did a middling job with them.
Results have been flat, so to speak, but the chances of achieving those results have been on a slow upwards curve.
I think it's more helpful to think of these teams in groupings.
The 90s were largely "happy to be there." We didn't start a real pro league until 1996; it had no effect. We crapped out in '90 and '98; '94 was great but we had HFA, home country seeding, and got through as a third place team on an own goal. Bora did a great job, but we had some advantages AND finished on the upper end of possible outcomes
The next wave started with a nice combo of the Reyna group's peak years with Landon and the start of the next gen. 2002 overperformed with a little luck -- an OG against Portugal, getting Mexico in the R16. But they did deserve more against Germany. The group crashed in 2006 when those vets were too old but the youth weren't there yet. The youth peaked in 2009-2010, but the Ghana loss was an underperformance. The last throes of some of that group was in 2014; great to get out of the group, but score or no we couldn't play with Belgium.
Roundabouts 2005, we realized that the Bradenton model didn't have a ton of growth. 2010 was a better team, but there's a ceiling there, right? MLS academies were kicked off, and eventually we'd shift from Bradenton. The lost generation happened, and when that group kicked off in 2018, we crashed and burned.
This group is still suffering from that. This is a young team -- this 2022 window may actually be closer to the 2006 run the 2010 group had when Donovan was 24, Clint 23, Beasley 24. And that team had some more vets than this team did.
Which is all to say that we may see in 2026 a more accurate representation of how far the prime age players of this group will go relative to the previous generations' prime ages, if that make sense.
This has little to do with Berhalter, of course. More to do with the idea that nothing was ever going to be linear -- you are always subject to generational waves -- and that the lost generation is not yet washed out of the system. It will be mostly gone by 2026, so much we won't notice it, I don't think.
See above. Berhalter had the player pool to make this an exceptional run.
he delivered a totally routine performance indistinguishable from past cycles.
This business that Berhalter contributed a damn think that Arena, Bradley, and Klinsmann hadn’t already accomplished is nonsense
On the first point, disagree.
2nd & 3rd, Agree.
Still think your thoughts are incongruous.
USSF accepts mediocrity, so I won't be surprised either.
One win in four games. Only in America would this be considered adequate....
The lost generation ended up giving us a couple of guys that played some amount of significance but having relatively minor impact in qualifying this cycle (Morris, Arriola, Yedlin), one important qualifying regular (Zimmerman), and one who ended up against the odds making a hugely positive impact on this tournament though never really beforehand (Ream).
We at least had Ream when it mattered. And Zim, even though his penalty mistake cost us two points.
He was bad. He is a gentleman, he loves the game and is passionate, but he was bad. And I would still thank him for his service. We could have done worse. Doesn't mean he was very good. IMHO....
They looked pretty bad against Germany, but not as bad as Brazil did, and they looked bad against Belgium, but were a missed shot away from winning the game, because they had stamina to chase the game.
Well, think some more. Maybe eventually you'll figure it out.
You are simply looking at talent and disregarding the fact that this talent has been very young and inexperienced. This was a very difficult project that Berhalter led. I think they met expectations. Nothing more, nothing less, but that job was very difficult. [Edit: I think he actually exceeded expectations when you consider the totality of the job that he did this cycle. The "meets expectations" was simply for this tournament.]
I think you and many have already forgotten where this program was in 2018 and you are underestimating the process that it takes for a young player to become an experienced player and the process that it takes to build a team when you are taking it from scratch.
Exactly this. He did a credible job. He didn't screw up collosally and had a little luck. He got some good results despite his clear deficiencies. This notion that he is somehow some significant step forward is overblown, that's all. He'd squarely in a pack with Arena, Bradley, and Klinsmann.
That's a fair point. This is a very young squad and they were really starting from scratch.
No, only in US Soccer.
In all other pro US sports, they usually fire coaches who are mediocre or worse.
Are there a lot of people on this board (or anywhere) that are arguing for Berhalter? I agree with you, he is Arena and Bradley and Klinsmann's equal, nothing more.
I think where the diverge is, is that somehow Berhalter is the sole reason we failed to do more in this cycle. Why? We are not a Top 8 team in the world by any standard!
You've been on this thing that people who've been watching the program for 20-30 years know better and that we should be, I don't even know what you think to be honest, but somehow sooooo much better than we were in this tournament.
I have been watching since the 80's. We are better. A lot better. But Soccer is hard, and the other teams haven't just all stopped progressing. Our player pool is just not there.
Honestly, I don't really have a preference at this point for next cycle as far as who the coach is. I could see Gregg taking this team and continuing the trajectory that they are on. He really does seem to be establishing an identity and even a style with the team, and he seems to have an amazing report with the players. He has shown that he adapts over time and that he has clear ideas about how this team can succeed.
But, I was never a fan of Bradley staying on after 2010 after watching how disastrously Arena's second stint in 2006 went down. There is definitely a danger of things wearing thin and passing a logical conclusion. If there is another coach who -- for certain -- is better, that possibility would definitely be the way to go.
In the end, I think we need to keep in mind that Gregg has the program in a very good position. It was an absolute steaming pile of dogshit when he got it. It had a TON of potential, but that doesn't mean that realizing that promise was simple.
There might have been some more qualified coaches that could have gotten the job over Gregg, and there might be some better coaches out there right now who could take over for the next cycle. However, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that this has been an immensely difficult job, and there was so much more involved than just coaching the game. There are no guarantees that even a "better" coach would have done as good of a job.
I bet there is a coach out there who could be more successful than Gregg, but I also feel pretty good about where he has this team at this point. What we don't want to do is hire someone just because they have a big resume if they are not a fit for the rest of what the project entails.
"Bad" is ridiculous.
We won the Gold Cup, Nations League, qualified for the World Cup and made it out of the group. All while taking a team that, yes, had a ton of young talent, but was returning almost nothing.
The world isn't a binary scale. I have no idea how ridiculously you overrate our talent if losing in the round of 16 to the Netherlands is "Bad."
You were doing ok until you got to the bolded part.
mbar, I think the team may want to move on and that will be dispositive.
I honestly think a majority of people think a) Berhalter did a good job over all and b) it's time for a new manager. Here how one guy put it: "The players need to hear a new voice." I agree with that sentiment. It sounds like you do too.
Marsch may turn out to be the GOAT in USA managing but not in 2026. He is working his way towards success at Leeds but he's not there yet. I bet he takes the 2030 gig and does the best job of anybody ever with this program.
Completely accurate summary that I have tried spewing a bunch of times lately.
If we continue the trajectory we are on, Yedlin and Roldan will turn into vibraphones. Aren't you tired of this crap? And, yes, thank you Greg for turning in some good performances and winning some silver and qualifying and getting to R16. Next.
We don't need just some coach who is "better" than Berhalter. We need the right guy. The right guy with the right, flexible tactical plan to make the best of this group of players, with a good eye for which younger guys are worth investing significant time in. A mature personality that will preserve the culture this side has built, respect the guys who have built it appropriately, and yet not be overly beholden to them, willing to give the younger and newer players the right amount of opportunities to keep things competitive.
Earnie and McBride will earn their salaries with this next hire, or else they will have failed, IMO.
Good steward for the program. What I like about his tenure is that his teams almost always responded when backed into a corner. Rocky start to WCQ? No problem. Rocky start to the group? No problem. Even today against the Netherlands, they kept fighting after going down 2-0. He seems like a good man manager who has established a positive culture in the locker room. Now that the foundation has been laid, they may need a more experienced manager to come in and squeeze every bit of talent out of this core, but overall I think he did a good job. B or B+ for me.
Was this a wasted opportunity to make the QF or SF? To some extent, but we had exactly the type of finish most outsiders would've predicted for our team going into this WC. It's disappointing to people who have really bought into the golden generation talk, but we're probably not quite as good as we think we are yet, even if we're better than other people think we are.
For people saying nothing has changed, I'd argue that the performances were generally much better than in past cycles, even if the results look similar on paper. I'll take this team against our 2010 or 2014 squad any day. The overall level is higher, even if we miss a player like Donovan. The level of quality in our performance vs. England in 2022 and 2010 is night and day in general.