Vaughn seemed to have a thing for "torso" fouls (i.e., pushing, extending the arms, holding, etc.). Joseph should have had the fastest sending-off in the history of North American soccer (I think there was a nine-second red in the Guinness Book of Records, no?). Anyhoo, what about the crap foul he called on Adu when he was actually the one taken down? TERRY VAUGHN: GRADUATE OF THE RACHEL WOO SCHOOL OF OFFICIATING!!!
Re: Terry Vaughn :: Revolution @ United (Eastern Conf. Final) :: Referee Thread [R][N You found that in my post, or just in the thread in general?
Re: Terry Vaughn :: Revolution @ United (Eastern Conf. Final) :: Referee Thread [R][N No, not in your post, that just seems to be the general theme of most of the officiating threads. One person says they suck and the next 20 say something to the effect of "it's a tough job".
Re: Terry Vaughn :: Revolution @ United (Eastern Conf. Final) :: Referee Thread [R][N When I've seen that happen, it's because the 20 reasonable people couldn't be sure about the right call until they'd seen the replay five times from three different camera angles. It is a tough job.
Re: Terry Vaughn :: Revolution @ United (Eastern Conf. Final) :: Referee Thread [R][N Indeed it is, and some people, namely Terry Vaughn, just aren't up to the task. Sorry, but that's just the way I see it. Brain sugeons have a tough job, but if they mess up and kill someone I'm sure no one is going to just shrug it off and say "it's a tough job, give him a break".
Re: Terry Vaughn :: Revolution @ United (Eastern Conf. Final) :: Referee Thread [R][N You mean the one where Freddy got cleanly knocked off the ball and then grabbed the defender's ankle?
It is amazing that so many folks don't understand the rule about hand ball. The laws of the game say that a foul is to be called when a player, other than a goalkeeper, "deliberately handles" the ball in the box. The use of the word "handle," rather than "touch," is deliberate, I believe. It implies that the player is trying to do something, to "use" or "manage" the ball in some fashion -- some of the dictionary definitions of "handle." Saturday, Carroll was running back towards the end line. The NE player crossed the ball and it struck Carroll's arm. Carroll's arm was extended as it would be as one runs. From the tape, it is clear that Carroll made no effort to reach out and deflect the ball. A classic example of a no-call for hand ball.
There's a difference between the way a rule is written and the way it's interpreted in practice. The strike zone is baseball is a classic example. For years, the strike zone as it actually existed bore little relation to the way it was defined in the rule book. Soccer's handball rule is similar. If one were to actually use "intent" as the criteria for whether a penalty should be awarded for the ball striking a defender's arm in the area, then I think very few penalties for handballs would ever be called. In reality, you almost have a "strict liability" interpretation of the rule. It doesn't matter whether you meant to touch the ball. If you as the defender touched it in the box, no matter what the reason or circumstance, it's a penalty. If FIFA wants a "strict liability" approach to the handball rule, it should re-write the LOTG for clarification. I don't think that Carroll meant to touch the ball, but I think that every referee in the world makes the penalty call.
Re: Terry Vaughn :: Revolution @ United (Eastern Conf. Final) :: Referee Thread [R][N Are you calling Adu the Ankle Grabbing Munchkin Of Death? (AGMOD)?
Agreed. Carroll changed the direction of the ball with his accident. That makes a huge difference. If it's an accident but the direction of the ball does not change, then maybe it's a no-call. But this wasn't even close.
I just don't agree with this at all. His arms definitely break the normal running motion as the ball is crossed, almost as if he is trying to protect himself from getting hit with the ball. I think the kicker on this call was when his right arm reached across his body. If he had just been running regularly tihs never would have happened.
Ummmm, who was the ref of the US Germany 2002 WC game????????????? Even our players, in victory, insist that Tino was fouled in the NE box, deserving of a PK. I don't understand why some fans here seem to want to pimp Vaughn. That pile of refuse has screwed us at least twice this year, and we didn't even get a "thank you" afterwards. Let's not forget the early foul on Stewart, either. Right after Joseph tatooed Jaime's thorax with his cleat pattern, (I think it was) Dempsey scissored down Earnie. Now there's a card in any game (except maybe in the EPL Machester derby yesterday), but the Rev player skated free. Kovalenko and Convey have been tossed for much, much less. What was a foul if DC did it was winked at if done by a player in white, especially if you had a nine on your jersey. Revs were tugging at jerseys and limbs yesterday using technique that must have made Sigi Schmid proud. No calls there even if the tug slowed down our player sufficiently so that the ball rolled over the end line rather than being crossed in or blocked out for a corner. Mad props again to some quiet siders (I think around section 113 for really giving it to that animated pile of animal dung on Saturday night. That ref should never, ever feel comfortable at RFK. Keep looking over your shoulder, Vaughn. I noticed that you're learning not to get too close to the Barra -- maybe you've got some intelligence after all. Nah, you were being guided. Yah gots to call it equally, arsehole. GM
As far as the WC is concerned. I didn't think that handball was "intentional" within the definition of the rules. Maybe the ref didn't see it but that call usually leads to a PK. We were unlucky. I thought that the defender got ball first before Quaranta went over him. That's why I don't dispute the non-call. I haven't seen the replay so I can't say for sure. BTW, in that first game against Columbus in DC. I think it was a penalty. I've watched the replay several times. Hejduk fell too unnaturally for it to have been a dive. I think that Prideaux clipped Hejduk's heel. The ref might have thought it was inadvertent, but for the fact that Prideaux had his hands on Hejduk's back, making it look like Hejduk was pushed from behind. If Prideaux keeps his hands to himself, there's probably no penalty. On your other issues regarding the inconsistency of the calls, I am with you.
It doesn't matter if the direction of the ball changes or not. If the contact is unintentional it isn't a foul. I have seen at least 3 games this season in England and Germany where contact is made, with the hand, in the box and no call is made. My theory is that this is due to the fact that in most other countries, the officials are competent and when the screw up they don't have everyone and their brother defending how tough of a job they have.
Re: Terry Vaughn :: Revolution @ United (Eastern Conf. Final) :: Referee Thread [R][N I've watched that play on my Tivo a few times now, probably 8 or so and there's no doubt at all in my mind that neither NE player touched the ball at all and that they took Tino out. Should have been a PK.
The World Cup blow job call was exactly what should have been called in the case that Brian Carroll's was. Either Hugh Dallas is an imcompotent prick or a biased bastard, but for whatever reason Frings got a way with one, and the US got screwed.
Re: Terry Vaughn :: Revolution @ United (Eastern Conf. Final) :: Referee Thread [R][N This was my initial reaction as well. I haven't been able to see a replay of it (they didn't show it nine times like the Carroll play) so I haven't commented on it yet because I want to make sure I saw it correctly.
Joe-Max Moore? Seriously, I boo the refs as loudly as anyone else while I'm at the game but overall the calls were pretty evenhanded. On 2nd viewing, the PK call could have gone either way but most refs would agree with the call. Carroll had his hand separated from his body and his arm was moving as it and the ball made contact. Probably not intentional but refs have to make a spot decision, not stop and try to administer polygraph tests to determine intent. No Tivo'ing it 10 time before deciding whether to blow the whistle. For the most part the ref let the players play the game. If he was any stricter either team might have lost someone [cough, cough] Namoff [/cough] to a double yellow or had someone suspended for the final. Any less strict and the game might have gotten out of control. The immediate yellow card to Joseph was pretty good game management in that it set the tone and kept somewhat of a lid on the overall aggression. There were hard tackles throughout the game and either team could have received more yellows. The Avery John tackle on Esky in OT left some doubt in my mind but I don't see it as a blatantly bad call. Overall, I don't think either team can feel they were screwed by the ref.
Re: Terry Vaughn :: Revolution @ United (Eastern Conf. Final) :: Referee Thread [R][N Just out of curiousity, of those of you who are supercritical of the officating week after week, have any of you actually referreed any soccer above the kiddie level? It's not as easy as it looks. I'm fairly critical of these guys, but it's not an easy job.
Re: Terry Vaughn :: Revolution @ United (Eastern Conf. Final) :: Referee Thread [R][N Part of the problem with officiating soccer is the number of officials to the number of participants. In soccer it's 3/22 (not counting the 4th official). In football it's 7/22. In MLB it ranges from 4 to 6 umpires for up to 13 people in the field of play. I forget how many officials to participants in hockey and basketball, but the ratio is better than soccer's, by far. There's too much going on for the center ref to see everything. I think the two referee experiment that was utilized in the Open Cup, IIRC, was a pretty good one.
Re: Terry Vaughn :: Revolution @ United (Eastern Conf. Final) :: Referee Thread [R][N I personally am not supercritical week after week. Yes, like I said, I know it's tough. No, I haven't officiated above the kiddie level, I know I couldn't do it. I have done some pretty tough jobs that I doubt many other people could do, had I not performed at a satisfactory level, I assure you I would have been relieved and no one would have said "it's a tough job" or "can you do any better".
Re: Terry Vaughn :: Revolution @ United (Eastern Conf. Final) :: Referee Thread [R][N The two referee system would be ok if it still had two linesman. This is what hockey does, I believe. The problem with the two ref system is that a lot can go unnoticed. We used to get away with a ton in high school and loved it because we knew where we could do stuff on the field and not get caught.
Refereeing at the professional level is more difficult because the everything happens more quickly. On the other hand, the rules are the same at every level. One can forgive a ref for missing a call because of the speed of play. Anyone who has referred understands that you always miss some calls. What is unforgiveable is mis-understanding or misinterpreting the laws of the game or failing to manage the game properly. More than a few MLS refs have developed their own versions of the laws of the game. I would say the most prevalent problem is failing to penalize tackles from behind. The laws of the game clearly state that such tackles are to be penalized; yet several MLS refs do not do so. Similarly, more than a few MLS refs appear to believe that it is permissable to push young, smaller players from behind in order to take away the ball. In Saturday's game, for example, a NE player ran up behind Freddy extended his arm, used his arm to push Freddy off the ball, and took the ball away -- all in front of the ref. This has happened at least once a game through the whole season. Herzog used both hands to push Freddy from behind and got away with it. I realize that this sort of thing is prevalent in other sports, especially the NBA; rookies don't get full benefit of the rules, but that's not the way soccer is supposed to be played. Few MLS refs properly establish control of the game. MLS games are generally too chippy and physical. And calls are amazingly inconsistent. What constitutes a foul or what deserves a card in the first half is usually widely different from what constitutes a foul or deserves a card in the second half -- and so on. Vaughan, in my opinion, demonstrated a limited understanding of the laws of the game and failed to manage the game properly. He certainly missed more than a few calls, but if that was the only problem, I think most of us would be far less critical.
Re: Terry Vaughn :: Revolution @ United (Eastern Conf. Final) :: Referee Thread [R][N The two ref experiment was exactly as you described (2 refs, 2 assistant refs, 1 fifth official). It was carried out in the USOC and the Italian Cup amongst other competitions worldwide. By most casual accounts and all official FIFA accounts it failed miserably. It didn't work, was hated by officials, players and coaches, and will not be revived for a very long time--if at all. The more possible reform, if any occurs, is two goal line judges similar to goal judges in hockey. Even this is unlikely, though.
Re: Terry Vaughn :: Revolution @ United (Eastern Conf. Final) :: Referee Thread [R][N And I think the reasons for such failures are obvious. Soccer is one of the most dynamic sports around. Obviously, something like baseball would be very easy to continually add umpires if needed and have each one carry less of a responsibility, focusing on just a small portion of the field. In football, each official only has a handful of things to look for each play, and their job is relatively simple based simply on the numbers of people they have on each crew. Soccer becomes difficult for a number of reasons. The size of the field is one. The fact that there are constant turnovers and changes of direction is another. The biggest problem though is that most of the calls require more judgment than a lot of other sports. In baseball, if the first baseman catches the ball before the runner gets there, he's out. If the ball is in such and such an area, it's a strike, etc. In football, if you block a certain way, it's a foul. If you get a handful of a jersey, it's a foul. The list goes on. In soccer you get a lot of judgment. Phrases like 'excessive force' are in the rule book. Also the rapidity of movement makes it difficult for anyone to have a certain view of a play.