tampering

Discussion in 'MLS: General' started by Tahu, Feb 17, 2008.

  1. Tahu

    Tahu Member

    Apr 13, 2001
    Chicago-North Suburb
    1.Coach signed by one team suddenly wants to leave when other team has opening. Make sense, is near his family.

    2.A few years latter....happens again same two teams.

    3. Player who is friend of 2nd coach who leaves, wants to follow.

    tampering?

    if so, does the league care?

    :confused:
     
  2. bwidell

    bwidell Member+

    Apr 19, 2005
    Manchester, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  3. rocker

    rocker New Member

    Dec 15, 2006
    it's not tampering if the two teams involved approve.
     
  4. dustcowpoke

    dustcowpoke Member

    Jan 7, 2006
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Drogba wants to follow Mourinho to AC Milan. I don't see everyone in Italy crying over it.
     
  5. Tahu

    Tahu Member

    Apr 13, 2001
    Chicago-North Suburb
    I am sure a lovely transfer fee will be paid to compensate his old team so they can replace him with someone just as good.

    This does not work quite as well in the restricted free agent, cap concious, league office owns all contracts - MLS.
     
  6. JoeW

    JoeW New Member

    Apr 19, 2001
    Northern Virginia, USA
    I think where the argument for tampering could be made (and I do not know if tampering happened) is that if representatives of Conde and Osorio (after he went to NYRB) talked.

    I find it suspicious (but not conclusive) that Osorio says he needs a left-sided defender and/or outside mid, indicates that those are his biggest priorities, goes to S. American and signs no-one and then Conde says he wants to play for Osorio and requests a trade. Probably impossible to prove anything in this case but it at least hints of tampering.
     
  7. nutella

    nutella Member

    Nov 11, 2006
    Plateau
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What are you on about, Mourinho is still unemployed...
     
  8. hollowfish

    hollowfish Member

    Aug 29, 2007
    Indiana
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm pissed about this cluster**** too and will not disagree that there might be some impropriety sewn into this situation, but this is not N&A material.

    Moved.
     
  10. russ bolshevik

    russ bolshevik Red Card

    Sep 30, 2004
    midnight in moscow
    you mean like when axis of evil group stole landon off the quakes? or when axis of evil group "bought" the quakes for free? or when axis of evil group got wynalda fired?
     
  11. Ismitje

    Ismitje Super Moderator

    Dec 30, 2000
    The Palouse
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MLS does clamp down on obvious and overt tampering - see Jason Kreis "hiring" Jeff Cassar away from FC Dallas without permission to do so.
     
  12. JoeW

    JoeW New Member

    Apr 19, 2001
    Northern Virginia, USA
    First, I've now read that Conde told Guppy in early December, shortly after Osorio left that he wanted to leave. So in my mind, that reduced the chances of tampering a lot. Now, it's possible that a rep from NYRB and Conde may have been in touch since then....but that's purely speculation and no indication that it happened.

    Second, I thought that Kreis' hiring of Cassar cost them a draft pick as a penalty.

    Third, I know that when Lalas went public and said that the Metrostars would be a better team for Adu to play on because he'd get more publicity and PT and it would be a better fit for him (I believe this was when Mojo was the coach), Kevin Payne responded that if Lalas continued, DCU would be talking to the league about tampering issues.

    So...the league does address this issue at times. I admit it's complicated because the league is single entity. Plus you've got some cases where one person (like Waxman) may represent the coach of a team and the player that a coach wants to acquire.

    That said, the "case for tampering" in this incident isn't as clear to me as it initially was (given the Arroyave blog posts on the timing here). It still smells a little and it has the potential to really hurt Chicago. I also understand Hamlett's position--he doesn't want players who don't want to be there.
     
  13. Onionsack

    Onionsack BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 21, 2003
    New York City
    Club:
    FC Girondins de Bordeaux
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it's pretty apperent Conde informed Chicago that he wanted his future tied to osorio back when Osorio was on his way to NY. This isn't a case of a team/coach raiding another team's happy players and trying to unsettle him to force a deal. Conde was unsettled the moment Osorio left for NY and has been trying to get Chicago to work something out since then.

    Now we can "debate" whether Conde going public was encourganed by Osorio, but it is alos just as likely Conde's agent suggested it. In these situations its often the agent that pulls the strings not the interested club.

    Either way this isn't even close to "tampering".


    This is closer to what tampering is. Public statements by a club designed to unsettle a player without any direct contact or permsiion to speak with the player by the club. For all we know NY and Chicago have been discussing Conde since December.

    Also, remember even in the Adu example, no one actually brought tampering charges.

    Its complicated because it's difficult to prove. Especially here when. Tampering is designed to prevent clubs from tapping up a player to get them to want to move, its not tampering when a player ALREADY wants to move and has expressed his desire to move.

    How can you "tap up" a player that already gave his club a writtin transfer request 2 months ago?!?!?!
     
  14. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I fail to see how that negates the fact that Conde is contracted to the Fire and it would be illegal to speak with him about moving to NY without first asking the Fire's permission.
    This is entirely possible.
    The allegations at this point are far from solid, but are not at all off base.
    Private statements between a club and player without first seeking permission to speak to that player are also considered tampering.
    It isn't complicated, but it is difficult to prove.
    This does not matter. Not one iota. Just because Conde wants to move doesn't mean other clubs can contact him freely. Until the Fire makes him available to be contacted he is off limits.
     
  15. NYC_COSMOS

    NYC_COSMOS BigSoccer Supporter

    Jan 13, 2007
    Queens, NY
    Club:
    CA Vélez Sársfield
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina

    I take it that you watched Knight Rider last night! lol lol
     
  16. Exit16W

    Exit16W New Member

    Aug 27, 2005
    Reston VA
    Does anyone have any evidence that Conde talked to RBNY? I am going to assume the answer is no. These conspiracy theories really have to stop. Similar situations happen all over the world of sports whether it be in Europe or the NBA etc... Look at Aston Villa with O'Neil harvesting players from Celtic who wished to move to Villa because that was where O'Neil was. The Fire do not have to let Conde go or they could trade him to another team other then the Red Bulls. These tampering theories are more Big Soccer BS!
     
  17. noel R

    noel R Member

    Nov 20, 2007
    chicago
    Just like the OJ trial, the evidence is there but some people refuse to see it. Mostly redbull fans. P-whipped osorio goes back on his promises to the team and CONDE and yet Conde feels the need to follow him. You look like a man you play like a man but your still a boy.
     
  18. metros11

    metros11 Member

    Sep 11, 1999
    Highlands of NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Okay, where is this evidence you speak of?
     
  19. Tahu

    Tahu Member

    Apr 13, 2001
    Chicago-North Suburb
    Your definition is too narrow.....

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    "In sports, tampering refers to a practice, usually prohibited, of a team negotiating for the services of an athlete or coach contracted to another team without that team's permission."

    It does not matter who started it.
     
  20. Tahu

    Tahu Member

    Apr 13, 2001
    Chicago-North Suburb
    Maybe not good enough for a criminal case, but good enough for a civil case. Just like OJ. Or do you think someone else committed that crime.:rolleyes:
     
  21. wolfp10

    wolfp10 Member

    Sep 25, 2005
    Please do share.
     
  22. Onionsack

    Onionsack BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 21, 2003
    New York City
    Club:
    FC Girondins de Bordeaux
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Well unforunatly for you I make a living off the interpretation of terms and sematics.

    "Negotiating for the services of" refers to discusions relating to employment. Please point to me any evidnce anyone here has that Osorio through his capacity at NYRB has made any contract offfers to Conde. All we know is that Conde asked for a trade 2 months ago and recently went public with that demand.

    There is a big difference between an unhappy player requesting a trade or transfer and a player being offered a contract or employment without permission of the current employer.

    So far the evidence clearly establishes that a player asked for trade to NY months ago and is displeased with the progress of that request and decided to go public. Thats not tampering. You can also bet based on the information that NY and chicago are discussing the situation at the very least as of a few days ago and most likely at some point in the last 2 months.

    So unless you Fire boys can offer evidene that NY has been talking to Conde behind Chicago's back to unsettle him more than he already was...kindly shut your face and be sure to pass that along to Mr. Wilt as well.

    Also, i wouldn't cite Wiki as authoritve text for anything since any retard with a PC can edit and set the information within it.
     
  23. Tahu

    Tahu Member

    Apr 13, 2001
    Chicago-North Suburb
    As Big Soccer is not a court with the abilities to request depositions, supenas, etc. - so most discussions of anything in the realm of the legal world - will be limited to IMHO talk and thoughts of "looks like a duck, smells like a duck" type talks.

    So I will finish my thoughts with this thought. You bring up Mr. Wilt. He is the only frequent poster who actually was a senior executive in MLS. He knows how general managers, coaches and players think. Unlike you or I. So, if this was a civil court, he would be considered an expert witness. But in the grand scheme of life, all of this is pretty silly.

    The point of this thread was to bring attention to a potential tampering situation. Please go to the original post - I believe I used questions.

    And if you don't like wiki - how is Princeton for a definition source? As you (os) make a living off semantics; words, like charts in economics have a little flexibility:p.

    http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=tampering


    Noun
    S: (n) meddling, tampering (the act of altering something secretly or improperly)
    Verb
    S: (v) tamper, fiddle, monkey (play around with or alter or falsify, usually secretively or dishonestly) "Someone tampered with the documents on my desk"; "The reporter fiddle with the facts"
    S: (v) meddle, tamper (intrude in other people's affairs or business; interfere unwantedly) "Don't meddle in my affairs!"
    WordNet home page
     
  24. Peter Wilt

    Peter Wilt Member

    Jun 11, 1999
    Whitefish Bay, WI
    as i said in my blog, it is "apparent" that tampering has occurred and it is "difficult to prove". Since we're in dictionary mode, an online dictionary defined "apparent" as "appearing as such but not necessarily so". i hope i don't need to define "difficult to prove".

    Tampering can be an effective way to sour a relationship with a team and force a move. It is also wrong and while with the Fire i never engaged in it and often had to defend against it. MDG asked my opinion a few months ago about hiring JCO away from the Fire and i told him then that i didn't support poaching coaches who are under contract without the other team's permission. He obviously disagreed with my opinion then and i imagine he disagrees with my opinion on Conde.
     
  25. triplet1

    triplet1 BigSoccer Supporter

    Jul 25, 2006
    Peter, with respect to players, it has always struck me that the single entity MLS uses makes these issues more convoluted. From the text of the court opinion in Fraser v. MLS:

    If the facts set forth by the court are accurate, the text I put in bold suggests that MLS has always taken an active role in putting the players it has under contract in certain markets for the benefit of the league. Since MLS contracts with all of the players, let's set aside for the minute whether player tampering can even occur as a legal matter and look at the larger issue of whether the league, if it allows this to happen, is favoring RBNY as some have suggested here.

    Since you know this better than anyone else here, my question is twofold -- hasn't the league already admitted in Fraser that it does "shift the puzzle pieces around" all of the time by getting marquee players into certain markets? And if that's ture, even if you assume the worst that RBNY is involded, aren't they only asking MLS to treat Conde as a marquee player and do the same for them?


    Link: http://www.sportslawnews.com/archive/Court Rulings/MLSDecision.htm
     

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