I know we have a couple of threads on similar topics, mods feel free to merge this somewhere more appropriate if you feel a new thread is unnecessary. I just wanted to have a bit of a separate discussion on exactly what we are doing with our midfield. Yes we are missing strikers, yes we don’t have a RB, and no we didn’t fix any of that in January. Fact of the matter is, we cant do anything about that now. Our midfield however, is not working well, and we have a literal ton of options. So for me, that is where there is mileage to be had in hashing over our midfield strategy, instead of gnashing teeth over not getting Berbs in January, or making plans to buy an Arsenal kit. I fully accept DS’s point about stats being limited, and the need to consider position, and also how each player uses a completed pass (a goal assist being of more value than a back pass obviously). But still, if you take a large enough sample, the stats can give some information, particularly if we combine them with our own impressions from games. The below stats are combined from the last four games, from the telegraph that was linked in the City thread. So we have stats from the City, Tottenham, Portsmouth and Reading games. I have not included Ronaldo, as we will play him regardless, and also because he is a free floating wing-forward at least half the time these days. Player (Mins Played) Passes / Completed Giggs (194) 86 / 59% Nani (205) 101 / 78% Anderson (132) 116 / 79% Hargreaves (149) 83 / 90% Scholes (210) 205 / 92% Carrick (243) 203 / 83% Park (162) 62 / 81% I was disturbed at how low Giggs’s completion rate is averaged over 194 mins of play. Of course, we must factor in that he has immense experience, adds creativity, and of course quality crosses / corners. Also, if you look at the individual game stats, the number of passes does not go up a lot if he plays a full 90, or just 50, confirming what we already knew, that he cant play a full 90, which is a great loss to us. Has 2 goals and 5 assists for us over 1700 mins this season. Nani as we know lacks discipline, but I was surprised that his pass completion rate was that high. His stats may be a bit artificially elevated by having a fair amount of play time as a sub. Has 2 goals and 8 assists for us over 1100 mins this season. Anderson’s completion rate is not great, around the lower end of our midfield. As we might expect, he has a lot of touches given how much he has played. He has 1 assist and 0 goals for us over 1100 mins this season. Hargreaves completes a lot of passes, as we would expect given his tendency to back pass. I was also surprised at how few touches he gets, given his “workrate”. 0 goals, 0 assists over 1000 mins this season. Carrick: Has come back into some form, his pass completion was also better than I expected. Has 1 goal and 0 assists over 1400 mins this season. Scholes: We need him. Stats are pretty obvious. Park: Performing as expected. Conclusion As many on the forum have said, we just don’t have the personnel for a 4-4-2 for the rest of this season, and we need to switch to a 4-3-3. When you look at the midfield, we lack a performing LW, or a CAM who can score and assist. Add this to the lack of a #9, and a RB, and that is why we are struggling at the moment. An ideal 4-3-3 based on the above would be Scholes / Anderson / Carrick or Hargreaves forming a triangle behind the top 3. Interestingly, Sir Alex seems to have assembled a squad which is more suited for a 4-3-3, but is not playing the formation. However, if we persist with the 4-4-2, then we really need to take a hard look at what we are doing in midfield. I think a more pragmatic approach to Gigg’s current fitness needs to be taken. I am not saying that he has had a bad season, he has played a number of great games for us this season, but we have to face it, he has also had some shockers. I would love to see him playing a HARD 50 mins once a fortnight. Ie. play 30mins hard, coast for 15mins, and then play another 5-10mins and then be subbed for Nani. If he knew this was the plan from the start of a match, he may be able to pull off a more functional LW role, rather than his current (by his standards) lethargic and ineffective playmaker role that he reverts to on a regular basis. Central midfield in a 4-4-2 for me is Scholes / Carrick, and using Anderson as a sub or rotation for Carrick or Tevez.
The problem we have with Giggs & Nani is that Nani is so raw and unstable in how he plays and his team ethic is all over the place. He will do three things good for everyy nine things bad and most of that is just poor decision making, his technique and intentions are usually exacted if he tries to make a pass or go on a run, but it's what he does whilst on a run or where he goes with his passing that we struggle to incoperate into a match-winning team. Giggs is making a lot of mistakes and trying to be too dynamic with his passing since his legs and stamina are fading, but he is not of the mold of a Ronaldinho and doesn't have such exuberant passing skills to fall back on, but he refuses to just play it simple, which is why he stats are so low. He represents our best left wing option unless we put Anderson there, imo. I fully agree, 45-60 as an impact player or the 1st in the relay, is where Giggs would thrive, over the 90 he struggles - watching Vassell leave him for dead in the latter stages of derby was a sad sight to see - so we do indeed have a problem on the left side of midfield. We need to be more flexible there and identify Giggsy's waning far earlier in matches then we do. Scholes Carrick through the midfield for me if we're to persist with the 4-4-2. Time for the tried and tested there as it really is the business end of the season now and we can't afford to chop and change there. We need a settled pairing whoever it is. Anderson is my preferred partner for Scholes, but we simply cannot handle his growing pains at this moment in time, so Anderson on the left or on as an impact player would be my preference, for now. I'd actually go with this: ----------------VDS ---------Rio-----------Vidic Hargreaves-------------------Evra ----------Carrick----Scholes Ronaldo-------------------Anderson ------------Tevez ------------------Rooney For the majority of our league games. Wes at FB just has to stop.
I'd love that, but I don't think Fergie would go for it. I'd absolutely love it though. We'd see the best out of Hargreaves at RB where his stamina is maximized and his crossing is much better than Brown's.
I have campaigning for "Hargreaves for RB" for a while. He can do the job there defensively and offensively. Plus, we can use him for set pieces. We can also keep him match fit to use as a runner in European games.
God yes! Thank you dude THANK YOU! I doubt Fergie will do it though, Brown will start the next game and the next one after that and he'll keep starting until Neville comes back and/or we sign someone in the summer. Sad, but true. I agree with using Anderson as an impact player, namely as a sub for Tevez when he runs out of gas. I'd be happy if he started with Scholes and Carrick though. Man I just wish we do something, ANYTHING different than persisting with Giggs on the left and Brown at right back.
It really pains me to see Giggs as inconsistent as he's been this season, especially since he's my all-time favorite soccer player, period. He's looked every bit of his 34 years (and then some, on occasion). Every time he's hit a blip in his career, its been temporary. I think Fergie is hoping that is the case again, but its certainly a gamble. That said, we certainly need someone who can provide a contrast on the left to what Ronaldo does on the right. Other than Giggs, I don't know that we have anyone who can do that. If we're going to play Anderson there, we'd have to make sure he has the positional sense to stay on the left, rather than drifting like Park. We just haven't had an even remotely settled midfield this season, and its hurt us. Bringing in Hargreaves for that kind of money, Fergie must have felt obligated to give him a share of starts, even when it wasn't totally necessary. But with the small number of games he's had, there hasn't been any chance for him to adapt to the players around him. Factor in Scholes' prolonged absence, Giggs' inconsistency, and Ronaldo's tendency to play in a more forward position, and our midfield seems to have almost no shape at times. We're relying a lot on individual brilliance or at most three players in a passing rhythm. Get players to knock us off the ball consistently, like we saw against both Spurs and City, and we look like headless chickens out there.
I honestly think that it's time for us to move into a 4-3-3 formation. Not only because of our central midfield composition but also because of Ronaldo. As the free-floating wing forward, the midfield is left terribly exposed despite his speed and willingness to help out the defence. The positioning and extra man to help stop the flow of attack simply isn't there. Placing Anderson as a left midfielder will be excellent. -------------Rooney------------- ---------Tevez-------Ronaldo--- Anderson------------------------ -------Scholes---Carrick-------- Evra---Vidic---Rio---Hargreaves ------------VDS----------------- That's why the City match was absolutely mind-boggling for me. Carrick and Hargreaves on the bench while Nani and Anderson were placed on the field... at the same time..
Agree with post above and with DS about the pesonnel and the lineup. I do think that it would be better played as more of a 433 with Scholes and Anderson alternatively venturing forward and Carrick shielding the back four. As for the RB question. Unfortunately, I don't think we are going to see Hargreaves back there even if he would be much more adept than Brown. This lineup does just make sense though---the substitutions make themselves---if we need a goal Giggs comes on for either Anderson or Carrick, if we need to lock the game up Hargreaves comes on for Anderson or one of the attacking players. This is the kind of lineup that could stabilize the attack and reclaim the fluency that we've lost since last season. It's got a midfield that can hold onto the ball and control the tempo of a game, with genuine options off the bench. It should be our go-to lineup for all the big matches that remain this season.
There comes a point in every great player's career where you see them have a defining game that leads you to believe they are done. As in, never the player you've associated them with for the majority of their career. Fortunately for Giggs, that Vassell moment happened later in the game and certainly told us all he is done as a 90minute left winger/midfielder. There's no way in hell he can play 2-way for 90 against tough oppo anymore and the management really have to take note of that. Giggsy's not done as a player, but outside of moving infield or playing 45-60 he really should not be depended upon to deliver, it's unfair of us and the management to ask that of a 34-year-old anyway. He needs help and rotation and if the management don't recognise that then, they'll have done him a great disservice and given him an undignified season to be considered by. That, along with the woeful pre-season, has killed us to this point in the season. I've said a few times in the matchday threads that we look like a team who need a pre-season now and I think it really shows. The familiarisation process is evident between Anderson and Scholes and its precisely what we don't need given we're now in an intense run-in. I posted in the Anderrson thread similar thoughts: I think Hargreaves as a RB with Carrick naturally sitting deep protects Ronaldo's flank and Anderson work-rate helps out a deep-sitting Scholes and his passing would benefit Evra's flanking as well. As others have said, cat in hell's chance we see this, but I'd love to see it used.