Taiwanese march for new constitution

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Ludahai, Oct 25, 2003.

  1. Ludahai

    Ludahai New Member

    Jun 22, 2001
    Taichung, Taiwan
  2. amerifolklegend

    amerifolklegend New Member

    Jul 21, 1999
    Oakley, America
    I really don't give a rat what the hell they're called just as long as their children keep producing the quality footware I'm accustomed to at a reasonable price.
     
  3. Ludahai

    Ludahai New Member

    Jun 22, 2001
    Taichung, Taiwan
    Actually, that would be China. Taiwan produces computer chips and semiconductors.
     
  4. amerifolklegend

    amerifolklegend New Member

    Jul 21, 1999
    Oakley, America
    Yeah, well China, Taiwan, People's Republic of Taiwan. Whatever. Just keep them six year olds a-workin'.
     
  5. Blitzz Boy

    Blitzz Boy Member

    Apr 4, 2002
    The West Side
    The political prisoners that actually produce the footwear are Chinese; but I think that the managers & executives are from Taiwan.
     
  6. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, you're not my hero, but you are indeed King of this World...enjoy your rule, and your subjects.
     
  7. verybdog

    verybdog New Member

    Jun 29, 2001
    Houyhnhnms
    I predict Taiwan will eventually be reunited with China in about 10 - 20 years.
     
  8. shenhua

    shenhua New Member

    Aug 27, 2002
    Parramatta
    Another stupid thread started by the troll Ludahai. Please tell me why you went from being a PRC ass-licker to a neo-con
     
  9. DoyleG

    DoyleG Moderator
    Staff Member

    FC Edmonton
    Canada
    Jan 11, 2002
    Victoria, BC
    Club:
    FC Edmonton
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Simple.

    He opened his eyes.
     
  10. Ludahai

    Ludahai New Member

    Jun 22, 2001
    Taichung, Taiwan
    I know, I know. "The Flower of Shanghai" HATES freedom and democracy. Freedom of Speech is only appropriate if it is speech you agree with, right?
     
  11. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
    Cincilluminati
    Club:
    Los Angeles Sol
    Nat'l Team:
    Philippines
    He saw the cracks in the Three Gorges Dam.

    Swimming lessons going well?
     
  12. DoyleG

    DoyleG Moderator
    Staff Member

    FC Edmonton
    Canada
    Jan 11, 2002
    Victoria, BC
    Club:
    FC Edmonton
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Fixed you post.:D
     
  13. Blitzz Boy

    Blitzz Boy Member

    Apr 4, 2002
    The West Side
    Don't be hating on Three Gorges. Capitalists build crappy dams, too.

    There isn't so much as a Democrat within 200 miles of where the Teton Dam used to be.
     
  14. Ludahai

    Ludahai New Member

    Jun 22, 2001
    Taichung, Taiwan
    I liked Loney's, but your comeback was better.

    I wonder if they will let me in the country with my surfboard?
     
  15. Ludahai

    Ludahai New Member

    Jun 22, 2001
    Taichung, Taiwan
  16. shenhua

    shenhua New Member

    Aug 27, 2002
    Parramatta
    the will power of 1.3 billion chinese cannot be defeated by a few seperatists in taiwan. Anyway it is not our goal to win "hearts and minds". Our goal is to retake the island which is rightfully ours.
     
  17. DoyleG

    DoyleG Moderator
    Staff Member

    FC Edmonton
    Canada
    Jan 11, 2002
    Victoria, BC
    Club:
    FC Edmonton
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Are you saying that from your heart?

    Or is it because the Chinese equivalent to "Fat Tony" is watching what you type?
     
  18. shenhua

    shenhua New Member

    Aug 27, 2002
    Parramatta
    Referendum rally by separatists on island condemned
    ( 2003-10-27 07:07) (China Daily)



    Saturday's rally held in the southern city of Kaohsiung in Taiwan that demanded the right to hold referendums was a separatist action manipulated by the Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) and other separatist organizations, said a spokesman with State Council's Taiwan Affairs Office Sunday.

    Led by Chen Shui-bian and Annette Lu, both leaders of Taiwan's ruling Democratic Progressive Party, the rally aimed to separate Taiwan from the motherland under the guise of promoting referendums and constitutional change, the spokesman said.

    The spokesman said that Chen's move counteracted with his August 2000 statement which promised "four no's and one without'' -- no Taiwan independence, no changing the national name, no constitutional changes to promote the two-country theory, no independence-or-reunification referendum and without scrapping the reunification policy.

    People from both sides of the Taiwan Straits belong to the same country and China's sovereignty and territorial integrity cannot be changed, he said.

    "Taiwan independence activities have directly damaged basic interests of Taiwan people and are a disaster for Taiwan,'' he said.

    Any activities to separate Taiwan from the motherland are doomed to fail, he said.

    It was reported that more than 100,000 people attended the rally in Taiwan on Saturday to demand the right to hold referendums.

    Chen, facing a tough presidential election in less than six months, with opinion polls showing his support rating trailing behind the opposition, has made the right to hold referendums and constitutional change key to his re-election campaign.

    Analysts say he is trying to make the independence-or-reunification debate the central focus of the March 2004 polls.

    Earlier on Saturday, a few thousand anti-independence activists, including veterans of the Chinese civil war, staged a protest outside the "presidential palace'' in Taipei.

    Opinion polls show that the overwhelming majority of Taiwan's 23 million people prefer to maintain the present political status.
     
  19. Ludahai

    Ludahai New Member

    Jun 22, 2001
    Taichung, Taiwan
    ¥Óªá (Shenhua)

    Why are you so against democracy? You don't have it in our own country, so you want to deny it to Taiwanese?

    On what basis is Taiwan rightfully China's? Should it belong to the people of Taiwan? If the people of Taiwan don't want to be a part of China, what right do a bunch of unelected autocrats in Beijing have to take Taiwanese peoples freedom away?

    Furthermore, there is no treaty following World War II that "returns" Taiwan to China, PERIOD!!! The Qing dynasty surrendered Taiwan forever in 1895. No treaty was ever properly signed and ratified "returning" the island to China.
     
  20. shenhua

    shenhua New Member

    Aug 27, 2002
    Parramatta
    What has democracy got to do with anything? China has made clear that the basic political system in Taiwan will remain the same and each side will maintain their own military forces after re-unification. The Splittists in Taiwan want to cause confusion and try and make out PRC to be anti-democracy. The seperatist forces point to HK and say One Country, two systems has failed. In reality life in the SAR has not noticeably changed and people enjoy the same rights they enjoyed under british rule.
     
  21. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leeds United FC
    How do you envision this happening?
     
  22. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leeds United FC
    This is an important point for Americans to remember. A lot of people in Taiwan consider themselves Chinese and don't want independence. Many also don't think it's worth risking everything they have in a war with China and don't think that America really will stand up for them if it comes to that.

    I've said this before, but I think it's a mistake to project our own feelings about independence (and outrage at China) on Taiwan since the situation is complicated and since our own country doesn't even officially recognize Taiwan, a democratic society where 80% of its citizens actually show up for elections.
     
  23. Ludahai

    Ludahai New Member

    Jun 22, 2001
    Taichung, Taiwan


    This was a quote from a CHINESE media report. Apparently, they have ignored recent polls, including one earlier this month by the United Daily (a pro-KMT newspaper in Taiwan) showing that 60% of Taiwanese agreed with Former President Lee Tunghui's formulation that there is one state on each side of the straits. A magazine conducted another poll in September showing that 72% of Taiwanese in their 20s either consider Taiwan a separate country or wish for Taiwan's independence. Of course, Xinhua is NOT going to report THESE numbers.

    What is wrong with allowing the Taiwanese to vote without coercion from China. Of course, Shenhua and other PRC supporters will NEVER agree to that because they don't believe in democracy AND they don't have confidence in the numbers that they cite.

    Taiwan will have a pivotal election next year. President Bush is right to support the right of the Taiwanese to develop their own society. Taiwan's status should not change without the consent of Taiwan's people.

    Shenhua - NO ONE IN TAIWAN believes that China will keep its promises except for the radicals in the New Party. Even the KMT and DPP don't trust the ChiComs in this regard. Taiwan is NOT a part of China, and most people in Taiwan believe that. Come to Taiwan sometime and leave the city of Taipei if you want to see how people REALLY feel about the idea of "reunification (sic)" with China.

    From yesterday's Taipei Times.

    http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2003/10/29/2003073818

    First, the only party threatening military action in the Taiwan Strait is China, which persists in refusing to renounce the use of force. Each year, China also adds 50 missiles pointed at Taiwan to its arsenal, so that now the num-ber of Chinese missiles pointed at Taiwan is around 400. On the other hand, Taiwan has not threatened China. Nor has the US, Japan or Australia.

    Second, according to June polls run by the Election Study Center of National Chengchi University, less than 10 percent of Taiwan's residents identify themselves as "Chinese." Over 40 percent identify themselves as "Taiwanese," while another 40 percent describe themselves as both "Taiwanese and Chinese." Only one of six residents favor unification with China even in the future and those who favor immediate unification number less than 5 percent.
     
  24. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leeds United FC
    I'm not sure what you are saying - are you saying that coercion and pressure from China is heavily influencing voting in Taiwan? I'm sure it doesn't help to have the threat of invasion hanging over you, but if Taiwan could elect Chen Shui Bian and Li Deng Hui, it can't be that bad right?

    I would be shocked if 70% of young people favor independence and are willing to risk their shopping and discos and internet, etc. to try and fight for it. Many of my friends are strongly against independence and think that the people who are strongly for it are uneducated country folk. I think that attitude is a bit ridiculous, but there is a lot of disagreement within Taiwan. Opposition to declaring independence for many isn't about threat of invasion but the fact that they believe Taiwan is part of China and they dream of a peaceful reunification once China is more democratic. And, like I said before, many don't believe US will keep its promise and defend Taiwan in an invasion.

    What is a little depressing is that probably more than 70% of young people (not just politicians) in Dalu (mainland) consider Taiwan a rogue province and would fully support an invasion to take it back by force. Young people in China think Taiwan is China's property and there is zero room for debate.
     
  25. Ludahai

    Ludahai New Member

    Jun 22, 2001
    Taichung, Taiwan
    No, it seriously affected those polls that showed some 70-80 percent of the people wanted to keep the status quo. Of course, those polls are predominantly from the 1990s and the numbers have shifted significantly over the past four years.

    I didn't see how the poll questions were worded, but I believe it was what they would like to see, I don't remember any mention of actually fighting for it. Of course, in an ideal world, Taiwan shouldn't have to fight for it was it was never legally "returned" to China in the first place. However, we do have to deal with the reality that China is aggressive and is a threat to Taiwan's freedom. As for the Taiwanese people, is anyone in Taiwan still alive from when Taiwan really WAS part of the same state as China way back in 1895? I don't sense any strong desire from people to rejoin with their "Chinese brothers". I DO sense a desire to live in peace with China and help China to improve itself. However, joining it under the same state? I sense no strong desire for that whatsoever.

    Probably more than that. The youth are completely brainwashed in their schools. Dissenting views are not tolerated. I taught in a Chinese university and say the indoctination process first hand.
     

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