Stuart Attwell demoted from Select Group

Discussion in 'Referee' started by Englishref, Feb 15, 2012.

  1. Englishref

    Englishref Member

    Jul 25, 2004
    London, England
    http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11661/7524108/Attwell-leaves-select-group

    As much as I've always thought he was out of his depth, I do feel really sorry for him. He was pushed way too fast to early. No one IMO, can have successive promotions and cope with refereeing in the biggest league in the world.

    It's also all the more difficult given the high profile dropping this will become.

    He'll have to join the list of those who've been dropped in the past - Paul Danson, Phil Crossley, Andy D'Urso, Uriah Rennie, Paul Taylor, Steve Tanner, Keith Stroud...not exactly promising for Attwell to return...
     
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But he's been doing really well in Europe. So if he manages to keep his FIFA badge--my understanding is that such a feat is possible from the National List--you'd have to think he'd have a better chance than others to reverse the trend, given his age, no?
     
  3. Englishref

    Englishref Member

    Jul 25, 2004
    London, England
    The history isn't on his side. Steve Tanner lost his FIFA badge after being demoted, and despite getting the U17 final, he's made very little movement up the UEFA ladder given how long he's been on the list.

    In theory, he has time on his side, but there are several young FL referees that the FA/PGMO are looking at, so I imagine he'll be usurped by these, after which, as he gets older, it's easy to disappear back into the 'safe FL pair of hands' role that D'Urso, Taylor and Stroud have done.
     
  4. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Feel bad for him. Got pushed way too fast then had the freak ghost goal incident. He was always going to be the ghost goal ref no matter what. Just caused the poorer performances to get magnified more then they would for others.
     
  5. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Re: Stuart Attwell Leaves the Select Group

    Can we get a change on the title?
    It's clear from the article that he was not "demoted" but the the move was done by mutual consent as he realized he was over his head.

    As for the "ghost goal".
    I maintain that he should not blamed for this.

    Sure, as CR, you make the calls.
    While you can be certain something did occur, but you can never be certain 100% that something did not occur.

    As a CR, if I never saw the ball enter the goal but the AR is certain of it, I'm going to question him on "how sure".
    If he is confident in what he saw, I'm going with him.

    I don't see how Attwell is to blame for following a confident AR.
     
  6. DudsBro

    DudsBro Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    As Graham Poll says in his book....

    A referee can only commit suicide, but an assistant can commit murder.


    And yeah it's mutual consent, but no matter how you swing it he's been bumped down a level = demotion. "Removed" maybe if you prefer.
     
  7. JohnClement

    JohnClement Member

    Dec 14, 2011
    Club:
    Derby County FC
    Unbelievable -How on earth can he have got a FIfa badge. It isnt just the Reading non-goal it is dozens of incidents in many games, where he has materially affected the correct outcome of the game. In the Derby County game against Forest game,he wrongly dissallowed 2 goals in the last 10 minutes and now league clubs have him foisted back on them -this simply isnt fair, If he is not good enough he is hardly likely to be better in the football league. For some reason he has been fast tracked because eof "connections" which is detrimenrtal to the game, players, clubs and fans at ALL levels.
     
  8. andymoss

    andymoss BigSoccer Supporter

    Sep 4, 2007
    Nashville, TN
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    He has been vertically integrated.....
     
  9. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Please provide evidence of this.
     
  10. footyref1

    footyref1 Member

    Nov 2, 2010
    South Carolina
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I thought the lower leagues were where all the good refs were...

    Matthew - www.footyref.blogspot.com
     
    1 person likes this.
  11. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To be fair to JohnClement in this instance, it seems to be pretty common knowledge or at least a widely-held belief amongst the referee community in England that Stuart Atwell was a David Elleray protege and got fast-tracked because Elleray took an early liking to him. Unlike, say, Michael Oliver, who though at a very similar age, seemed to rise on his own.

    Probably impossible to provide "evidence," but there are articles on the web talking about it. And if the referee community in England believes it (Englishref might be able to chime in here) it's hard to attack JohnClement for saying the same thing.
     
  12. JohnClement

    JohnClement Member

    Dec 14, 2011
    Club:
    Derby County FC
    -Exactly true but he is clearly one of the worst rather than one of the best. I wouldnt even let him ref a pub game on Sunday morning.
     
  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's just impossible for you to not go too far with the ad hominem attacks, huh?

    On the flip-side of Atwell's rapid rise has come a quite impressive run in Europe with international youth matches and EL matches. So, while the early pressures of the EPL might have been too much for him this time around, it's wrong to say Atwell has been a failure as a FIFA referee. He's proven himself quite competent at the international level thus far.
     
  14. JohnClement

    JohnClement Member

    Dec 14, 2011
    Club:
    Derby County FC
    Yes I believe the Ellerray protege theme to be totally correct. I think he also has a relative who is chairman of a county referees association. Frankly I have never got over that Derby v Forest game but every time I have seen him on the TV his performance has seemed to be very poor. A friend of mine who is a referee says that he gets himself in a lot of wrong positions so that he is often unsighted and then makes a contentious often match changing decision, even though he hasnt had a clear sight of it.
     
  15. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006

    You mean like Webb cheating for Man U? ;)

    Speculation =/= fact.

    It's absolute BS and embarrassing to see such allegations on a referee forum.
     
  16. uniqueconstraint

    Jul 17, 2009
    Indianapolis,Indiana - home of the Indy Eleven!
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe my HR background in my day job is showing, but this seems to me like simply this: Atwell was likely promoted too far too soon. A victim of The Peter Principle? Perhaps but time will tell. If so he'll be quite happy and do quite well in the lower division.

    If he got himself in bad positions, etc. etc. etc. I have to think he'd have been sacked, eh? Connections only get you so far.

    If he was THAT awful - and I honestly don't know - he wouldn't be a referee at all anymore, whether because of the FA sacking him or him quitting because people who rashly judge or exaggerate the impact of a human making a mistake do stupid things like follow him home or write threatening letters to him and his family or throw things at him. Can't imagine anything like that happening, right? Just ask Graham Poll and Martin Hanssen.

    We may never know the whole story, but suffice it to say he and the association thought it best.

    And, sorry, but not being able to get over Derby v Forest is not Atwell's problem.
     
  17. JohnClement

    JohnClement Member

    Dec 14, 2011
    Club:
    Derby County FC
    No it is only a problem for 30,00 fans who were ripped off then and as we all knoww referees are bigger than the game, clubs, players and fans who if this board is to be believed do not matter in the least.
     
  18. JohnClement

    JohnClement Member

    Dec 14, 2011
    Club:
    Derby County FC
    "If he was THAT awful - and I honestly don't know - he wouldn't be a referee at all anymore". -Naive view as this implies that FA referee selection and promotion is in some way based on merit or ability, with an objective selection and assessment process.
     
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Um, you don't think fast-tracking occurs? Particularly for a guy who makes the EPL at age 26?

    I mean, we all know it's occurred in the US; it used to be a stated, written policy, in fact.

    I don't view this as an allegation. David Elleray had a lot of power. David Elleray took an early liking to Stuart Atwell. Stuart Atwell benefited from that relationship and his promotions occurred faster than most. These statements might not be verifiable with written evidence, but that doesn't make them untrue.

    The issue has been in print for years:

    Is it enough for Graham Poll to also write about them?

    I'm not sure what you're getting upset about. Are you genuinely arguing we are operating in a world where politics, influence and favoritism don't play a role in moving up the referee hierarchy? And it's not necessarily a bad thing. Some times the powers that be and influential decisionmakers identify talent and take a shine to them and move them along faster because they deserve to be pushed. Collina has allegedly done that with Cakir of Turkey (and Vad of Hungary, who otherwise would be permanently in Kassai's shadow). Again, not sure why you'd be upset by this. If we can say that administrators help referees that deserve it, then surely there are times when administrators get it wrong or move someone too fast. None of this is a slight or allegation against Atwell.
     
  20. footyref1

    footyref1 Member

    Nov 2, 2010
    South Carolina
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ridiculous comment which shows you don't actually want to find out what referees think about themselves and the game, you have your set of presuppositions and can't think outside of those.

    Most referees referee to be part of the game that they love, either because their playing days are over or because their kids played and they now want to stay involved in the game. Those of us who come on this board do so because we want to be better referees, which in turns help the Game.

    When you look across the sports landscape you see big players with big egos, usually the best players have an ego to match their talents: Jordan, LeBron, Kobe, Rooney, Balotelli, Woods. Why would anyone think the best referees would be any different. Watching Kill the Referee you can see it in every single center - they are supremely confident, which can come across as narcissistic.

    Most of us want to get through the game without any major events; we just want to do our job and go home. The problem you have is that you have never tried to referee and have no idea what you're talking about. I bet you're also the guy who's screaming at the golfer who just missed a 5 foot putt on the 18th in Augusta, saying "I could have made that!"

    Matthew - www.footyref.blogspot.com
     
  21. uniqueconstraint

    Jul 17, 2009
    Indianapolis,Indiana - home of the Indy Eleven!
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To say it's solely based on politics and influence without a shred of it based on ability is just as naive and even illogical.

    And Owen Coyle likes him, so can he be all that bad?

    I don't imagine I'm going to convince you, your mind was made up before you posted, and you seem to favor argument rather than debate - there is a difference. I'm just bored at work and felt like responding to your narrow, obtuse posts today. You're welcome!
     
  22. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    John, a small number of your posts are okay and contribute something here.

    A larger share are inane, but still aren't objectionable, so they are okay.

    This one and the sort like them, are not:

    This is trolling. You're running out of time in regards to learning the differences among the three types of posts.
     
  23. JohnClement

    JohnClement Member

    Dec 14, 2011
    Club:
    Derby County FC
    I have to say that those qualities are admirable -congratulations on your altruism. However this is not the USA, I certainly see thiose qualities at lower levels of the game in England, because after all there is no money or fame in it. However I perceive these qualities to be absent in most of our so called select group refs. This is because I see the FA as an unrepresentative, undemocratic body, in which old school tie, patronage & politics decideds who occupies the decision making positions. These people generally have a poor grasp of the game and make bad decisions, notably on recruitment issues particularly with regard to referees. The British Govermnment (both present and previous) has critiscised the governance of the FA and said that it is not fit for purpose.
    Examine the shambles surrounding the England manager position over the last 2 decades as an example. as far as referee selection goes administrators with little knowledge choose those they have most heard about, thus controversial referees who issue a lot of cards come to the fore.This is an inverse way of choosing the best because controversy is usually a euphemism for incorrect decision. I this way the FA faced with a choice between Dr Barnado & Hitler, would always choose the latter.
     
  24. uniqueconstraint

    Jul 17, 2009
    Indianapolis,Indiana - home of the Indy Eleven!
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    WOW - next time loosen the tin foil hat a little before typing.

    I couldn't find a cogent point in there anywhere, just a bunch of scattered sentences assembled.

    Try again, this time with feeling.
     
  25. JohnClement

    JohnClement Member

    Dec 14, 2011
    Club:
    Derby County FC
    If I pay £30 plus travel & accomodation to watch my team and they fail to win the ganme beccause of refereeing decisions, why would I not feel ripped off. If I pay £30 to go to the theatre and the cast arbitrarily decide to change the scripted ending, I would feels the same or if the London Philharmonic removed a few bars from Beethoven.
     

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