Structure of Modern Football Competitions

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by peterhrt, May 24, 2018.

  1. I read comments on the El Classico being an unbelievable boredom fest this evening. Well, it only takes a couple of those matches under the umbrella of the SL and the SL is dead in it's track.
    Please start that SL. I can't wait for that superclub implosion.
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord


    [​IMG]

    ;)
     
  3. Yeah, but it would be interesting to see an analysis/break down of how those tweets relate to international (CL=pseudo SL) matches and how many related to domestic matches. I think such an analysis would only give Ajax as the club more tweeted about in relation to CL matches than domestic.
    Then I would like to see a break down of those numbers in domestic/European/rest of the world tweeters.
    Then we can draw conclusions.....and I might be proven wrong
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Article about the tendency for the Super League:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...l-man-utd-barcelona-real-madrid-a9330431.html

    "We don’t want too many Leicester Citys.”

    These were the words spoken by a senior figure from the Premier League’s ‘big six’ clubs, in the kind of high-end London hotel you can easily imagine.

    “Football history suggests fans like big teams winning,” the official continued, to the group of business people and media figures present. “A certain amount of unpredictability is good, but a more democratic league would be bad for business.”



    It mentions a lot of good stuff but somehow it doesn't mention that the super clubs are now co-owner of the Champions League, nor does it mention the 'legacy payments'.

    https://www.voetbalprimeur.nl/nieuw...hi-blunderde-opzichtig-bij-chelsea-ajax-.html
    https://www.hartvannederland.nl/nieuws/2020/uefa-chelsea-ajax-benadeeld/
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/sustain-the-excellence-ajax-2019-20.2103882/page-31#post-38480381

    A clearly wrong application of rules and the VAR (with three men behind the screens) doesn't correct the error...
     
  5. I find the title unsustained by the article's content.
    It's a worrying process, but inreversable....no.
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    It is not irreversible no... But all those wrong applications of VAR, with three men behind the screens, makes you wonder (Chelsea, but also Real Madrid earlier in the year).

    UEFA now doing something against Man City, but PSG got off the leash by a mere technicality.

     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Telling example is how 'moneyball' clubs as Brentford or Mydtjylland have scaled down their youth development or got rid of it altogether. Because the best are hijacked for free (or an inadequate sum) anyway.

    Meanwhile, we have also seen rare reverse cases such as PSV getting an Italian-Dutch youngster from AS Roma, with then 'cartel members' as Real Madrid and Arsenal (trying to) intervene in 'solidarity'. See also this report on how the money is increasingly locked and circulated among the Big Five leagues (+ Brazil). And oh, what are the mouthpieces happy to see challengers get stripped down to bare bones...
     
  8. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    There is a fundamental problem in terms of money in the modern game and the way that the top clubs earn their money that means it is hard to see quite how to undo the current status quo.

    Personally I think headlines about the game being 'broken' are fundamentally wrong but the competitive balance is out of whack.

    We have seen the concentration of wealth, and with it the best players, in the top 5 leagues and in those leagues among a handful of small clubs. That means a narrow pool of teams who can win trophies in those leagues though collectively it means the Champions League for instance remains competitive (at least in the knock-out stages).

    Unfortunately, the irony of the Manchester City ban is that UEFA themselves have played a bigger part than anyone else in destroying the competitive balance. The money from the Champions League is so great that it is transformative for the teams who do well in it (or even just get to participate).

    The dominance by one team that we see in Greece, Scotland, Croatia is directly attributable to the money received by those teams from the Champions League.

    Alongside that we see the inequitable division of domestic TV money in the big leagues. In Spain the small teams receive a quarter of the money that goes to Real Madrid and Barcelona. In comparison the bottom PL team receives 2/3 of the total TV money of the top sides. For all the talk about the PL being the 'greed is good' league, it is actually far more equitable in its division of money.

    Fundamentally we need to ask what sort of game we want to see and how drastic we are willing to be to achieve this.

    Do we want to see more balanced domestic leagues (ie a greater spread of potential winners) or do we want to see national champions with a chance of international success?

    Are we willing to impose more stringent measures like forcing a more equitable distribution of TV money? Are we willing to increase the solidarity payments to smaller clubs in smaller countries? Are we willing to impose a salary cap?

    The good news is that the big, rich teams are rarely doing much long-term investment to solidify their position. Instead they continue to spend the vast majority of their resources on wages and transfers.

    We also see clubs like Liverpool and Manchester United prove that money isn't everything. A well run rich club can outperform a badly run richer club. But money does talk and it is hard to outperform teams with greater resources for a prolonged period of time.

    Quite where we go from here I don't know.
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #59 PuckVanHeel, Feb 20, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
    Some things like the VAR or stadium comfort is an improvement but the whole youth system is broken. Ranging from widespread abuse of children in a few (developed) countries (not exclusively limited to youth academies obviously), moneyball teams getting rid of it altogether, as well as the whole phasing in of youngsters.

    Clubs invest Harvard like sums in those players and then risk losing them for nothing (and there is also a discussion to be had about playing for national teams where they didn't have their expensive training; the amateur clubs where a Dest or Ziyech started their career cannot exist without KNVB money).

    Then they go to the youth set-up of a club where the first priority is to find a local for the first team or a fancy American (as shown and explicitly voiced in the four part documentary series about Dortmund).

    The vast majority of the best players from smaller countries didn't leave early (Lewandowski, Modric etc.). It is easy to contrast the path of De Bruyne (left aged 21) with the 'super talents' that went early. This shows things aren't going well when the cream is skimmed (say, the top 10% and it's understandable they make the jump) and eventually others surface.

    https://sporza.be/nl/2019/02/05/trudo-dejonghe-over-studie/
    https://www.uantwerpen.be/popup/nieuwsonderdeel.aspx?newsitem_id=3736&c=HOMENL&n=100839
    https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/...sociates-study-research-charly-musonda-107535

    There are of course always those who go against the trend. Christian Eriksen who deliberately chose the continental country that was most similar to Denmark. Now also Steven Bergwijn who was rated as a youngster (albeit with not the best squad back then) and waited for his time. Might have been the best option although Mourinho is also an expert in pausing the career of promising players.

    The technical level of the average professional player has increased overall. It's always easy to look back at the Baggio's, Scifo's, Bergkamp's, Stojkovic's (the ~1964 to ~1970 generation has an incredible amount of those, for their playing position) but mean the average player here.


    This is naturally a consequence of knock-out being more random (not always the best team wins; the one that would finish on top in a normal competition format) but also there we see an increased stratification I'd say. Clubs who get to the quarters and semi by default.

    The proportion of 'richer club beats poorer club' has increased.

    https://football-observatory.com/Evolution-of-competitive-balance-in-the-Champions-2191
    https://football-observatory.com/Evolution-of-competitive-balance-in-the-Champions

    UEFA really needs to be careful in that eventually the same poorly organized, bloated clubs play the semis every year. They have also made a gigantic mistake in making the superclubs co-owners of the show, a direct say in who gets into the referee committee, the calendar and stuff like that.

    At the same time, a different scenario is a berlin wall but not a galaxy away. Cruijff said in 2014 that Ajax can still win the Champions League and he's determined to prove the point; and I already mentioned how clubs as Inter, Atalanta and Liverpool with upward ambitions picked up some of our 'lost generation' and have had some success with it (or might reap success with it).


    Those have decreased over time. As mentioned in the Independent article but also by VI two months ago somewhere.

    That's also the fear over here, though so far it didn't happen and some precautions have been made (still the fear the CL money + what it generates is too big).


    There needs to be some research and thinking about cross-border leagues and UEFA needs to give it a green light, so that investigation can start in other regions. Of course, UEFA must also prevent that over time you don't get the same problem again (one club with the best players and best facilities that wins every year).

    Some sort of NBA style super league with luxury taxes is not necessarily bad for the smaller countries, provided that they get in. Of course, this will grant e.g. Dinamo Zagreb, Celtic a locked-in monopoly in their territory and maybe means it cannot be a for-profit business any more.

    Already in 1949, before the introduction of professional football in NED, there was a plan for a Benelux league but for UEFA it was always a no go area beforehand.

    https://www.thescore.com/news/1907746

    Ajax is now also transformed from 'neutral' to a believer. "The addition of certain clubs will raise the level of the matches. It is important though to look at the overall picture, the competitions must also be properly filled in at other levels. And all parties - other clubs, the second division, supporters groups, etc. - are involved to give their opinion in order to get a balanced and sustainable outcome.", concludes Van der Sar
     
    comme repped this.
  10. When Catalonia declared independency, Barcelona and Espagnol can join the BeNeLiga:)
     
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Makes a lot of sense to think about this, yes.

    There are also things we can do independent of this.

    1) The taxes are absurdly high compared to other countries (and the taxes have been increased in recent years). One-third of FDJ and MDL transfer fees went to the tax revenue service. It's a political decision to give clubs heavy taxes (for covering police costs, too), and tax the footballers for 50%, while Apple Inc., U2, the Rolling Stones and Nike find a tax haven here. Then we have also the rule that non-EU players have to earn 150% of the average wage, while others do not (Belgium) or have even the opposite policy (Portugal).

    2) The average age of footballers is here the 2nd lowest of entire Europe (behind Slovakia). Side effect of this are immature and erratic performances in European settings, and a lack of experienced players to give guidance and set examples.

    I think with a different tax regime, and a different recruitment strategy of clubs (more foreign players, more mature players) we can be the 6th or 7th league of Europe anyway. Right now there are few countries who tax football clubs and footballers as high as we do.
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    The third priority should be the agents. Some of those things that happen there are not right (getting rid of any licensing was a huge mistake, as admitted by Infantino himself here in this very interesting and revealing book I'm now reading - someone who comes out very well is Van Gaal). What those intermediaries get is way more than the practice in other entertainment industries like music or movie stars. It is out of bounds in that respect. Some agents (+ staff ofc) get a higher annual income than entire mid-sized leagues.

    At the same time, sometimes they are unfairly villainized (also in the book; someone like Raiola plays with his badass image but eventually he has more positives than e.g. Soren Lerby to show) and they do more than just placing signatures. Mendes also arranged/arranges Ronaldo's personal team for example, and he was practically the only one to have that at Man United.

    Overall it is an unregulated and unaccountable industry.
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This is what the new chairman of the federation says in two separate interviews (VI and NRC).

    (funnily, those high taxes also prevents Ajax from running away :))

    Here in spoiler a few bits. On Qatar, Super League etcetera.

    Show Spoiler
    HFC is not delivering the federal president for the first time. For example Pim Mulier and Karel Lotsy preceded you.

    'The club has been in existence for 140 years and is older than the federation itself. Mulier was the founder of the KNVB in the nineteenth century.'
    [...]
    You determined at the media companies. Not at the KNVB. Can you accept the ceremonial role of the federal president?

    "In the past I was in the automotive industry abroad. There you could say: Tomorrow that I want to see fifty thousand mirrors. No discussion. That is more a command structure. It never appealed to me that way. In the media and entertainment industry, where I came to work later, it's all about the people on the stage. They really won't run faster if you give orders. On the contrary. They have their own idea of what should happen. So you have to convince them. I find that much more exciting and more to my nature. "

    Your predecessor Michael van Praag stated that he was on an island and had no power.

    "Michael was in a situation that changed. I have subscribed to the position as it is. We have two directors here. Eric Gudde and Jan Dirk van der Zee determine what happens. We do consult regularly. That goes well, but it is important that they let my voice count. The federal president has little power, but if he does well, he will hopefully have a lot of influence. "
    [...]

    Which themes do you want to get started with?

    'Take a look at the countries as a whole. What do churches represent? Less and less. Member organizations such as trade unions and broadcasters are becoming increasingly smaller. There are only two associations that represent the mass of the people: the ANWB and the KNVB. Only they still find a million people as members. Topics enter the agenda and deliberative discussion through football. See the racism discussion recently. Ministers became involved and a concrete plan has now been rolled out. In short, the KNVB is a socially relevant organization whose core task is to properly organize thirty thousand games per week and to satisfy the members. From Ajax to VV Breskens. That is a fairly broad spectrum. In doing so, we could make even better use of the binding role that we in society. That sounds simple, but that is ambitious. '

    Give an example.

    'Last week we had a meeting with a number of top clubs. We asked what the top priorities should be if we talk to the government in The Hague. Among other things, they stated that they suffer from the fiscal rules that are stricter here than in Belgium and almost all other places. Players are more expensive here. That can put us behind. Do we want PSV to be overtaken by Club Brugge? Thanks to our social relevance, we have a continuous dialogue with politics, so that we can raise these kinds of problems, while an individual club cannot do that. "

    The success of football seems obvious. Could the same thing ever happen as with the churches?

    'Yes! Do you know that the pope set the Dutch church as an example for the world church in the 1960s? It was the most successful folk church in the world. Look where we are now... That's how fast it can go, guys. There is no guarantee that it will always go well. Right now we have to think about building on the success. "

    What are you thinking about?

    'The KNVB campus now looks great, but other clubs and federations are just continuing their heavy investments and importing assets. We must constantly innovate to stay in the forefront. I have two children, aged 22 and 19. Young people go to the stadium less and no longer automatically become members of a club. The general interest in football is not as high as in surrounding countries"
    [...]
    Expertise and visionary ideas are not the competencies with which you usually get the furthest in football policy.

    'Michael van Praag already said that you can still have such great plans, but that you should know the people. We will therefore focus on this in the coming year. There will be elections in 2021. "
    [...]
    Talk about innovation; you just mentioned Club Brugge. What do you think about the BeNeLiga?

    'The research into the BeNeLiga is not our initiative, but the initiative of six Dutch and five Belgian clubs. If you decide to do something so big, you will cross a bridge that you will not cross again. So if you do it, it has to be done good. "

    What do you think of their move to investigate a merger? It is supported by the KNVB and KBVB in the recent press release.

    'It makes sense to investigate the BeNeLiga. The five major competitions in Europe are running further and further away. What are we going to do about that? I understand that very well. Only: it is way too early to say that this is the right recipe. In a first report, many questions remained unanswered. The football technical story is at least as important as the financial side. If you think through, this will affect everything up to and including the Second Division.
    [....]
    What would you do as world football boss?

    'Take America more emphatically as an example, although I realize that their sporting culture is very different in some respects from ours in Europe. But many mechanisms have been put in place in America to ensure that, for example, the New York Yankees don't always become baseball champions. Salary ceilings and a fair distribution of talents are not very popular lines of thought in football, but elements will soon have to be created that will keep the stage full. Otherwise sooner or later the interest will fade away. '

    --------------------------------
    --------------------------------

    "I think it's good that the World Cup is in Qatar."

    Despite human rights violations?

    "The criticism is sometimes too short through the bend. As Westerners, we must be careful not to require other countries to make the move from the Middle Ages to today in one go, even though we have taken hundreds of years to do so. Right now you can steer the situation in the right direction. Working conditions for guest workers have already improved. Is it ideal? No. But without the World Cup it would probably have been a form of slavery. "

    Not many people reason like you.

    "Human rights were also a theme at the Beijing Games. I then read a nice interview with the German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt. He said, “Can I say with my hand on my heart that I was a democrat before the war?” He also needed his time, and wanted to say that it is not fair to set a country like China by Western standards."

    Do you think that we force our standards and values on others?

    "Yes, and that is unwise. In China, for example, they consider it a human right that anyone in the country can work, a right to work in rural areas. Not in the Netherlands or Northern Europe. Does that make our definition of human rights better? Do we live by it? It is not about what I find, my personal conviction, but about being able to discuss it. Same story with possession of weapons in America. In a small, densely populated country like the Netherlands there is no reason to carry a weapon, not in New York either, but if you live in a remote area in Nebraska and it takes 45 minutes for the police to be with you, does possession of weapons make more sense? It does.”
    [...]
    "Whether we keep that place is hard to say. It is just like with the Songfestival. If Sweden votes for Norway and Norway for Sweden, is that because they liked each other best? Michael has stressed to me that for such an election it is very important that you show respect for everyone, even more than the content of your program. "Talk a lot, travel a lot," he said. The KNVB is a big union. If we come by, that is greatly appreciated. And there are countries, such as Italy, France and Azerbaijan, where they only make a deal with the president. ”

    Until now, the presidency has been an honorary job. You are the first to be paid.

    "I had also done it unpaid, but the KNVB is becoming an increasingly professional and technocratic organization. That means that you have to demand something from people. And if you demand something, you have to give something in return. "
    [...]
    The gap between rich and poor clubs needs to be closed?

    "Yes, but not by having large clubs give in money. It is better if the entire football industry grows. The poor needs to get richer at a faster rate than the rich.
    [...]
    What are your biggest annoyances in football?

    "I always have trouble when people don't accept the consequences of their decisions. There are many of those."
    [...]
    Is the KNVB too white?

    "Our organization is led by white men of a certain age. That's a fact, isn't it? We shouldn't leave it that way, but I am not in favor of quotas to appoint people with a different background. "

    Do you not like the Rooney Rule, which obliges American football clubs to invite applicants from ethnic minorities?

    "No, that's artificial and stigmatizing. It is better to help people you want to get over the last bumps. I think that there are very talented people at the KNVB. Young women, non-white men, who have the potential to come to my place or that of the management one day. But I also realize that it is harder for them to get there."

    How does that happen?

    "Something like that can go unnoticed. When applying for a job, it is always easier to assess someone who looks like you than someone who doesn't look like you. And by realizing that, you can do something about it. In the media and entertainment world they made it also look as if we were at the forefront of everything, but I have never seen such an antiquated industry in that area. Both Endemol and Stage Entertainment had not had a woman on the board before my arrival. While 60 percent of the customers are women. I immediately appointed a woman to both companies. [...]
    "As a chairman, you have to encourage development. You actually have no decision power, but you can achieve a lot while talking. So when I am at Feyenoord, I say that I cannot believe that there is still no women's team. Feyenoord, come on. Yes, it costs money, but some investments only pay for themselves later. "
     
  14. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I read that all PL clubs get the same domestic TV money. I don't know it changed or if the foreign TV money is enough for the top to make 50 percent more than the bottom (going from 2/3 to 1 is increasing 1/3 which is 1/2 of 2/3). For prize money, there are 210 shares given on a 21-club's position basis from 20 shares for first to 1 share for last. How about a compromise for Spanish TV money. First give every club 20 shares, which is 400. Then give 210 more shares from 20 to 1. The total would be 40 for first down to 21 for last. Expressed as percents, the mean would be 5%, the maximum would be 6.56%, and the minimum would be 3.44%. The difference between 40 and 21 (or 40 and 31 if you compared first and tenth) is not negligible. Furthermore, assuming there is prize money that favors the top clubs, and prize money from the CL, EL, going farther in the Copa del Rey, from friendlies around the world, and from World Cup payments. After World Cup 2018 (I don't know if it was done earlier), FIFA stated how much money they gave each club depending on how many World Cup players it had. I don't remember if all players were treated equally or if players on teams who advanced farther meant more money for their clubs. The top clubs got the most, but the 32 rosters included players from 416 clubs who aren't well-known. I'll post the top ten with amounts in US Dollars:

    1. Man City: $5,003,$440.00
    2. Real Madrid: $4,813,830.00
    3. Tottenham: $4,385,792.50
    4. Barcelona: $4,145,950.00
    5. PSG: $3,894,080.00
    6. Chelsea: $3,835,357.50
    7. Man United: $3,656,360.00
    8. Atletico Madrid: $3,093,190.00
    9. Juventus: $3,019,610.00
    10. AS Monaco: $2,934,710.00

    This is from a World Cup, so it is not annual. You would have to divide by four for an annual amount, and that's if you ignore inflation and anything else that can make receiving 4X at one time be better or worse than receiving X at that time, one year later, two years later, and three years later. Since everyone will wonder, Bayern Munich was 11th, Liverpool was 12th, and Arsenal was 13th. The top German club other than Bayern was Dortmund in 15th, the top club outside the top five leagues was Sporting Clube de Portugal in 16th, the top club outside UEFA was Al-Hilal of Saudi Arabia in 71th, the top Italian club other than Juventus was Inter Milan in 20th, the top club in CAF was Al-Ahly of Egypt in 24th, the top Spanish club other than Spain's top three was Sevilla in 29th, the top club in CONMEBOL was Boca Juniors in 40th, the top club in Concacaf was Pachuca of Mexico in 48th, the top club in a Concacaf country other than Mexico was Alajuelense of Costa Rica in 82nd, the top Brazilian club was Corinthians in 91st, the top MLS club was San Jose Earthquakes in 108th, and there were no clubs from OFC. England, Spain, Germany, Italy, France, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Portugal, Mexico, and Turkey were the top ten countries in how much prize money clubs from their leagues got. This is not directly related to a country's national team. It's indirectly related in that if a country qualifies, they probably have some players in their domestic league. Italy and Turkey had a lot of prize money for their clubs while their national team didn't qualify.

    It may seem strange that without amounts in the millions, FIFA didn't make all of them have a whole amount of dollars. If a club had a World Cup player for part of the previous season, they got part of as much money as they would have gotten for the whole season, so that may cause the amounts ending in 50 cents.
     

  15. Agnelli unsure if Atalanta are deserving of a Champions ...
    forzaitalianfootball.com › 2020/03 › agnelli-unsur...

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    8 uur geleden - Andrea Agnelli, chairman of Juventus, spoke about Atalanta during the FT Business of Football Summit where he cast his doubts over clubs like ...

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    7 uur geleden - But speaking at the FT Business of Football Summit in London, Angelli claimed Atalanta were unworthy of their place at Europe's top table.

    This shithead isnot a footballman, he's a businessman trying to put up a cartel that protects the participants investments.
    Probably he doesnot understand economics well. If someone with investing less gets suprior results, the one with huge investments and less revenue duly should be taken out of the competition as being inferior by the superior investor.
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Empty stands as the future of his club ;)
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    UEFA thinks not much different unfortunately. They have just expanded the UNL to keep some of their money makers/cashcows in, rather than relegated to the 2nd tier. It is one of many signs.
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    It will be interesting what effect the current crisis has for effect on this. UEFA, predictably, has threatened the 'lesser' leagues to not end their league.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/sports/european-soccer-football-canceled.html
    https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/52152106

    Meanwhile, the talent and muscle drain continues.

    "Almost no one paid attention to it. However, during the winter market two underage boys left the youth academies of PSV and FC Den Bosch. They are going to try their luck in England, with Wolverhampton Wanderers. Again two teenagers emigrate without having played in Dutch professional football. This undercurrent in the player market is becoming increasingly powerful. FIFA's numbers don't lie. International trade in minors quadrupled between 2011 and 2019."
    https://www.vi.nl/pro/de-kindertransfermarkt-hoe-groot-is-de-schade-voor-nederland


    And a club like Borussia Monchengladbach employs a dozen Dutchmen in their organization, at responsible positions (as a general idea: a club like Dortmund has three times as many employees as Ajax).
    https://www.vi.nl/pro/de-nederlandse-invloed-op-de-talentontwikkeling-bij-borussia-monchengladbach

    The megaphones and cheerleaders for the cartel will subsequently shout around how genius it all is....
    https://theathletic.com/1669125/2020/03/16/rene-maric-borussia-monchengladbach/

    Strong cultures and agendas at play...
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Talks and research about a merger league have been ongoing and the pandemic has not decreased the chances:

    https://ussoccerplayers.com/2020/06/the-pro-league-and-the-eredivisie-have-time.html


    Here and there some hints have been dropped that politicians will not block this attempt.

    [​IMG]
    https://www.corriere.it/sette/ester...da-11ea-9e85-8f24b6c04102.shtml?refresh_ce-cp




    To say it as a populist: we transfer bucketloads of money to thoroughly corrupt, incompetent and deceitful places, so that their banks can lend free money to Barcelona, Juventus and they can buy our (youth) players very early in their career.

    Hopefully it can contribute to staying players a bit longer so that a bit more of a bond can be formed at the formative stages, which is so important.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    LOL at the Super League idea to give five invitational places (who have to qualify, unlike the 'founding members') so that they get pummeled by the others, with help by referees who are on the payroll and assigned by these clubs and Super League competition.

    Well, that formalizes and deepens what is already the situation - if you think cynic (the commercial side of the CL is already a joint-venture between the UEFA and major clubs). Where referee allocation/appointment is not really based on merit (no matter how horrible they are, certain countries have always a number of referees for the advanced stages; check the referee forum where it's spelled out e.g. France didn't have an elite level referee for some time, but nevertheless they get assigned to the highest category because, well, it's France).

    This also means a further marginalization of NED/BEL football and in due time it is bound to follow Scandinavia perhaps. Where Premier League rights are sold for 2 billion pounds but the domestic game/infrastructure gets a pittance (and with the best staff moving abroad). I'll stop watching all of this entirely.
     
  21. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC

    I am probably blissfully unaware about whatever the fundamental problems might be; but yeah, I don't get the outrage? I mean, The Champions League already is as horrible a format as I can imagine; much worse than the cut-throat concept of The Super League, as far as I can tell.

    A Super League would at least be more honest, as it would stop this rather pathetic current era of Champions League Football, where the super clubs are virtually guaranteed entry into the knock out stage; where finishing 1st or 2nd in the group stage is largely meaningless; and where the only games that actually matter happen in March and April; mostly just April...

    The Champions League format made sense when there were no real super clubs; but in its current form, I do honestly think that this current era just might be the most decadent of all eras. The modest clubs cannot realistically compete in the Champions League. That will probably never change, for as long as there are super clubs.

    I do hate the Champions League, I will admit... A competition that only lasts from March to April; everything else is an expensive adornment, for the most part. The Super League would function like a league I presume; it would not be based on just the games of March and/or April, the way the Champions League is based exclusively on said two months.
     
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  22. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member+

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    I agree with your criticism of the Champions League. However, the Super League would be no different. The plan is for 180 "league" matches (two divisions of 10) followed by four spurious "play-off" fixtures for fourth and fifth placed clubs - all just to reduce twenty teams to eight for the "quarter-finals".

    So we would get six months of exhibition matches then four weeks of knockout at the end of the season.

    The broadcasters are up in arms because of the dilution of their product. But, unlike what the money men claim, most fans do not support Real Madrid, Barcelona, Manchester United and the like.

    The majority would have been hoping their club might manage a top-half finish next season, perhaps with a chance of a Europa League place. Now they can dream of the title. And the Champions League itself will be much more open.

    It could all be a blessing in disguise.
     
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  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    By the way, the plan UEFA themselves approved this morning provides a safety net for Juventus if they don't finish among the top four in Serie A (whether current Italy should have four automatic places, on merit, is contentious). They will be in the new Champions League based on 'legacy coefficients' (but only when finishing among the first seven/eight of their league; it will leapfrog the teams finishing above them without such history).

    My country should stop all payments to Italy/Spain immediately I'd say. It is maddening how those basket case economies use our lot as ATM, and then use that same bank money to buy players.
     
  24. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #74 leadleader, Apr 19, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021

    Well clearly... I was dumb and ignorant enough to, rather stupidly assume, that the Super League would actually function like a league; in fact, I assumed that that was a good part of the whole point of it, to replace the one-dimensional Champions League with something slightly less dogshit.

    I just don't understand the obsession for cup formats...

    We already have the World Cup, Euro, and Copa America...

    Football does not really need more cup formats, in my view.

    Football probably needs a super league dystopian slugfest; let the super club bullies of the world destroy themselves, for the world to see; it would probably be a blessing in disguise, which is why I did not see the point of all the outrage, as if the current Champions League Era wasn't absolutely morally (and literally) bankrupt as it is in its current form.

    But yeah, if The Super League is going to be 6 months of exhibition matches; I will probably not be watching it...

    Life is short, after all.
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #75 PuckVanHeel, Apr 19, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021
    This is indeed noticeable to see. They're all too worried that they might be usurped by Amazon (and Netflix etc.) in the future, who are of course just as many of the owners of the football clubs of American origin. This endangers the decades long cozy relationship between the EPL and Sky. It might also turn it into a globe touring F1/tennis/golf event.

    The new approved Champions League proposal has many of the same features and flaws, including legacy bonuses and legacy entries. This gets a little bit glossed over when Neville er al. rant about why Arsenal should have a parachute right to entrance. They sort of have that right in the UEFA plans too.

    Domestic leagues are unbalanced as well, in large part because of the Champions League. The Economist had a few times a nod towards the Eredivisie, as only top-20 league with attempts to prevent ossification (as in: Zagreb, Salzburg or Olympiakos running away from anyone else), but in five years time the conclusion might well be this hasn't been enough. Clubs as Ajax (and Brugge) might well turn it into a winning streak. Portugal has the 'luck' (or achievement) to have more than one entrant, which helps against a domestic monopoly.

    In the third decade of the 21st century almost all of the big (second half) 20th century institutions are disappearing in the rearview mirror. Public broadcasters are a shadow of their former selves; typical 20th century companies are mere shadows of what they were (they were called 'volksaandeel', meaning 'people's stock/shares'); the once all-dominant christian-democratic and social-democratic parties (70%+ of the vote between 1917 and 1994) are in ruins and turned into empty shells; support for the monarchy is below 40%; culturally there is complete fragmentation (as funnily someone like David Bowie predicted and foresaw in 1999). Domestic competitions, with at seven o clock "the dinner on my lap" is the next institution/ritual to fall.
     
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