Stock Phrases (that are used on BS over and over and over) Arena Laughs At

ursula · Jun 23, 2005

Having slogged thru 11 pages of reactions on Arena's roster for the GC, I thought I'd give a list of generic sayings that people use around here- and how Arena responds to them.

1. (Insert player's name) sucks with his club team! What the ******** is Arena thinking?

History: In 2000 the US played in the Nike Cup here. Included on that team were DCU players (at the time) Pope, Agoos, Llamosa, and ABMOD. Not surprising at first glance. But a deeper look shows that the DCU defense was playing godawful then, giving up goals and own goals at record rates. Remember this was in the midst of DCU going from first to worst. At the time many posters here decried their inclusions. But then these hacks played just fine in the tournament. It seems in retrospect that hwo Thomas Rongenb was organizing them and how Bruce Arena was organiuzing them produces radically different play- which is why Arena was the Nats coach and not Rongen.
The lesson then? Arena looks beyond what a player might be doing on his club team. He realizes that how a player plays with his club might be very different than how they play in a very different international game. This explains practically the whole of Tony Sanneh's career with the Nats as another example. I'm sure you Nats fans can think up other examples. This is the opposite of:

2. But so-and-so is playing so well for his club! How can Arena be so stupid to ignore him?

Look: how a player performs again doesn't translate directly to the international game. This could be called the Jason Kreis Memorial Rule. Taylor Twellman finds a home here. So does Robin Frasier and others. There can be different reasons for non-inclusion: too slow or not skillful enough or can't create on his own.... depending on the position of course.

An important thing to remember here is the answer to the next common complain:

3. Player X hasn't gotten a fair trial in games!

The number one trial for Nats players isn't in friendlies or in competitions like the GC. It's in the camps. If a player can't assert himself playing against his teammates then Arena ain't gonna use use him much in games. There are a bunch of players over Arena's tenure who have a handful of caps but are then dropped. Frasier or CJ Brown. Twellman or Kreis. They were playing okay or great for their clubs but their shortcomings were exposed playing against their peers. The Ralston Line is real.

Finally it's important to note that never ever has Arena called up a Marginal Player like Jason Kries who lit up the place during his time. Of course a great performance would lift them above Marginal Player status, but looking back, there has never been a player who seemingly had been ignored by Arena several times and finally been called into camp that has shown Arena wrong, that he was unjustly overlooked and should be a core member. Ever.

4. Why is so-and-so called up again? Isn't it obvious he sucks?

All national teams, like all club teams have core members and marginal players. Every world cup squad is made of of a combination of both. So Arena needs to keep tabs on these guys, to see who still can contribute in some small way to the Nats. Remember how well Arena used his roster in Korea? He got meaningful contributions from guys like Wolff, Lewis, Llamosa, Berhalter, Sideshow Cobi... even Meola, who didn't play a minute, contributed by being totally supportive of the team effort. So right now it's important for Arena to look at guys like Ben Olsen or Chris Armas: veterans who know what he wants in specific situations. One has to realize that the small contributions that these guys make that often determine if we win or lose. It ain't sexy but it's effective.

5. So-and-so will be a disaster if called up

Soccer talent is not distributed amongst the human population in a bell curve pattern. Obvious, no? In america there are a few (one or two) players who have the most talent, a handful with slightly less, a bunch with slightly less again, hundreds with a little bit less, thousands with slightly less, etc (getting to me. ) So, as you go down the quality curve you have more choices. So Arena say calls up Chris Armas or Frankie Hedjuk. Old news!@^$#&&%$^*&%$!!!!!!!jj`!!!! In truth there are other players as talented as those two as they don't have say Landon Donovan's or even Freddy Adu's talent (as Frankie knows quite well this year.) But they mesh well on an Arena lead team. And they have enough talent.

The reality is that using words like "disaster" are ...not realistic if you want to evaluate soccer players- which is Arena's job after all.

Okay. That's five. There are more and maybe we can get to them later.

mschofield · Jun 23, 2005

ursula said:

Having slogged thru 11 pages of reactions on Arena's roster for the GC, I thought I'd give a list of generic sayings that people use around here- and how Arena responds to them.

1. (Insert player's name) sucks with his club team! What the ******** is Arena thinking?

History: In 2000 the US played in the Nike Cup here. Included on that team were DCU players (at the time) Pope, Agoos, Llamosa, and ABMOD. Not surprising at first glance. But a deeper look shows that the DCU defense was playing godawful then, giving up goals and own goals at record rates. Remember this was in the midst of DCU going from first to worst. At the time many posters here decried their inclusions. But then these hacks played just fine in the tournament. It seems in retrospect that hwo Thomas Rongenb was organizing them and how Bruce Arena was organiuzing them produces radically different play- which is why Arena was the Nats coach and not Rongen.
The lesson then? Arena looks beyond what a player might be doing on his club team. He realizes that how a player plays with his club might be very different than how they play in a very different international game. This explains practically the whole of Tony Sanneh's career with the Nats as another example. I'm sure you Nats fans can think up other examples. This is the opposite of:

2. But so-and-so is playing so well for his club! How can Arena be so stupid to ignore him?

Look: how a player performs again doesn't translate directly to the international game. This could be called the Jason Kreis Memorial Rule. Taylor Twellman finds a home here. So does Robin Frasier and others. There can be different reasons for non-inclusion: too slow or not skillful enough or can't create on his own.... depending on the position of course.

An important thing to remember here is the answer to the next common complain:

3. Player X hasn't gotten a fair trial in games!

The number one trial for Nats players isn't in friendlies or in competitions like the GC. It's in the camps. If a player can't assert himself playing against his teammates then Arena ain't gonna use use him much in games. There are a bunch of players over Arena's tenure who have a handful of caps but are then dropped. Frasier or CJ Brown. Twellman or Kreis. They were playing okay or great for their clubs but their shortcomings were exposed playing against their peers. The Ralston Line is real.

Finally it's important to note that never ever has Arena called up a Marginal Player like Jason Kries who lit up the place during his time. Of course a great performance would lift them above Marginal Player status, but looking back, there has never been a player who seemingly had been ignored by Arena several times and finally been called into camp that has shown Arena wrong, that he was unjustly overlooked and should be a core member. Ever.

4. Why is so-and-so called up again? Isn't it obvious he sucks?

All national teams, like all club teams have core members and marginal players. Every world cup squad is made of of a combination of both. So Arena needs to keep tabs on these guys, to see who still can contribute in some small way to the Nats. Remember how well Arena used his roster in Korea? He got meaningful contributions from guys like Wolff, Lewis, Llamosa, Berhalter, Sideshow Cobi... even Meola, who didn't play a minute, contributed by being totally supportive of the team effort. So right now it's important for Arena to look at guys like Ben Olsen or Chris Armas: veterans who know what he wants in specific situations. One has to realize that the small contributions that these guys make that often determine if we win or lose. It ain't sexy but it's effective.

5. So-and-so will be a disaster if called up

Soccer talent is not distributed amongst the human population in a bell curve pattern. Obvious, no? In america there are a few (one or two) players who have the most talent, a handful with slightly less, a bunch with slightly less again, hundreds with a little bit less, thousands with slightly less, etc (getting to me. ) So, as you go down the quality curve you have more choices. So Arena say calls up Chris Armas or Frankie Hedjuk. Old news!@^$#&&%$^*&%$!!!!!!!jj`!!!! In truth there are other players as talented as those two as they don't have say Landon Donovan's or even Freddy Adu's talent (as Frankie knows quite well this year.) But they mesh well on an Arena lead team. And they have enough talent.

The reality is that using words like "disaster" are ...not realistic if you want to evaluate soccer players- which is Arena's job after all.

Okay. That's five. There are more and maybe we can get to them later.
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There's gotta be a convey rule, named just for him, though it would have to schizophrenic, half thinking it was a great rule and half thinking it was worst rule ever.

Maximum Optimal · Jun 23, 2005

the bobby convey rule would be an inverted richie williams rule with a half twist

subbuteo · Jun 23, 2005

"Adu blahblahblahblahblah"

chad · Jun 23, 2005

Well for Bruce's giggles, I'd like to invoke Number 4 with reference to Vanney.

Thank you. Have a nice day.

johnnygol · Jun 23, 2005

# 5. So-and-so will be a disaster if called up

Sanneh

russ · Jun 23, 2005

6.Arena plays his favorites!!!

Like the USMNT is a U-12 setup where Johnny,Billy and Susie are all supposed to get playing time no matter what or it's "not fair"....

Once and for all....

All pro coaches play their favorites.When you stop being favored,you grab pine.

voros · Jun 23, 2005

I think what Big Soccer fails to understand is that Bruce Arena is the greatest soccer manager that ever lived. He's completely redefined the job to the point where all managers throughout the world will be held to his standard of excellence.

As we've all seen, his choices are always 100% correct. He never stays with players too long. His tactical acumen is without peer. Total football is simple kick and chase compared to Arena's brilliant tactical maneuverings. His player management skills are in a class by themselves. His ability to motivate players is unrivaled in the annals of sport. If Knute Rockne had known about Arena, his "win one for the Gipper" speech would have been modified to "I got nothing." As a result of his literally flawless performances, we win every single game we try and win.

Therefore any decison Arena makes is, by definition, the correct one, because he is such a class of footballing genius that whether a decision is right or wrong depends entirely on whether Bruce Arena would have done the same thing.

Us Big Soccer peasants are not worthy to lick his high and mighty boots, and if Bruce asks to spend a night with our girlfriends or wives, we should consider it an honor and a privilege to let him do so. Frankly, those who dare dare to question but one decision he makes should be immediately red carded and their transgressions held up for ridicule in a sticky thread so that all can see the consequences of questioning the immaculateness of our soccer savior.

lurking · Jun 23, 2005

Ursula, that was my guess is about 1,000 words that boils down to Arena is always right because Arena is always right. Your whole argument is hinged on the fact that noone can refute it because to do so would actually require players not on Arena's christmas card list to get shots.

So what if Agoos, Llamosa, Williams and Pope did well for a few games... how did that group fare in 2002?

And its easy to say that a player cant hack it at the international level if never given a shot. Twellman is one guy, but Kreis was never given much of a shot with the US team. See Ralston, the guy was never given playing time, now in the sunset of his career he gets it by the boatload? He was a better player in MLS 3 years ago than he is now.

And the whole camp thing, yeah, thats nice that he has a nice arbitrary means of eliminating players he doesnt like that has no real way of being scrutinized. We couldnt dare criticize his decisions because hes made them.

And finally, yeah, you can look at guys like Heydude and Armas and go, "well those other guys arent really better" except Heydude and Armas have NO upside at this point. They wont get better. Even if Burciaga or Dunivant arent better now, doesnt mean that wont be the case 6 months from now.

Maximum Optimal · Jun 23, 2005

Actually, there might be some logic to his selections this time. Give the old/marginal guys who might have something left in the tank a last chance to show what they can do. Then use any meaningless qualifiers/friendlies to test the young uns. It makes sense to do it in this order because some of the young uns are likely to improve dramatically over the next year. Testing them in the Gold Cup would not necessarily provide a good indication of what they can do a year from now. On the other hand if the oldies don't show anything this summer, it can be reasonably concluded they're not gonna be helpful next summer.

bunge · Jun 23, 2005

Razov.

purojogo · Jun 23, 2005

voros said:

I think what Big Soccer fails to understand is that Bruce Arena is the greatest soccer manager that ever lived. He's completely redefined the job to the point where all managers throughout the world will be held to his standard of excellence.

As we've all seen, his choices are always 100% correct. He never stays with players too long. His tactical acumen is without peer. Total football is simple kick and chase compared to Arena's brilliant tactical maneuverings. His player management skills are in a class by themselves. His ability to motivate players is unrivaled in the annals of sport. If Knute Rockne had known about Arena, his "win one for the Gipper" speech would have been modified to "I got nothing." As a result of his literally flawless performances, we win every single game we try and win.

Therefore any decison Arena makes is, by definition, the correct one, because he is such a class of footballing genius that whether a decision is right or wrong depends entirely on whether Bruce Arena would have done the same thing.

Us Big Soccer peasants are not worthy to lick his high and mighty boots, and if Bruce asks to spend a night with our girlfriends or wives, we should consider it an honor and a privilege to let him do so. Frankly, those who dare dare to question but one decision he makes should be immediately red carded and their transgressions held up for ridicule in a sticky thread so that all can see the consequences of questioning the immaculateness of our soccer savior.
Click to expand...

You must spread some reputation around..... DAmn it!....

ursula · Jun 24, 2005

lurking said:

Ursula, that was my guess is about 1,000 words that boils down to Arena is always right because Arena is always right. Your whole argument is hinged on the fact that noone can refute it because to do so would actually require players not on Arena's christmas card list to get shots.

So what if Agoos, Llamosa, Williams and Pope did well for a few games... how did that group fare in 2002?

And its easy to say that a player cant hack it at the international level if never given a shot. Twellman is one guy, but Kreis was never given much of a shot with the US team. See Ralston, the guy was never given playing time, now in the sunset of his career he gets it by the boatload? He was a better player in MLS 3 years ago than he is now.

And the whole camp thing, yeah, thats nice that he has a nice arbitrary means of eliminating players he doesnt like that has no real way of being scrutinized. We couldnt dare criticize his decisions because hes made them.

And finally, yeah, you can look at guys like Heydude and Armas and go, "well those other guys arent really better" except Heydude and Armas have NO upside at this point. They wont get better. Even if Burciaga or Dunivant arent better now, doesnt mean that wont be the case 6 months from now.
Click to expand...

Well, I disagree with you. You and I are fans and by definition we aren't privy to important info on players. We aren't privy to the logic that Arena (or any coach) uses for the most part. Coaches always make most of their decisions outside of the public spotlight. If you read enough posts here you can see that many posters here realize that Arena basically has his Germany roster set, with only a couple of slots open mainly because of injuries.

We can however pay close attention and analyze what Arena does. By analyze I mean do more than say, "I think Armas has no upside at this point" as one can argue thats not the point (do you really think that obvious point has been overlooked by Arena? If Arena hasn't overlooked it then he must be using different logic than you use and since you fail to look further then what's the point in debating?) and we can go back and forth ad nauseam and get nowhere.

Arena makes mistakes. Even he's admitted some of them. Some of them aren't even discussed on BS- I don't know why. I find it fun to find them, but it takes effort. Leaving it at the level of, "Jason Kreis didn't get a fair shake" is... tiresome.

bltleo · Jun 24, 2005

Maximum Optimal said:

Actually, there might be some logic to his selections this time. Give the old/marginal guys who might have something left in the tank a last chance to show what they can do. Then use any meaningless qualifiers/friendlies to test the young uns. It makes sense to do it in this order because some of the young uns are likely to improve dramatically over the next year. Testing them in the Gold Cup would not necessarily provide a good indication of what they can do a year from now. On the other hand if the oldies don't show anything this summer, it can be reasonably concluded they're not gonna be helpful next summer.
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Well I´m not coach, but if I were a coach, I would prefer
mix of "old" and "young", mix of experience and mix of "naive aggressivity",
mix of players who plays secure and players who risk more, something
between this. I don´t know how to express this in english. I think
just to "test" youngest in friendlies / qualifiers but not to give them
chance to prove themself, to challenge themself against big stars,
it will not extra motivated for them. I think even young players should
be tested in the GOLD CUP. I would not to rely only on "oldies" and if they
don´t show anything this summer, to "throw" them away and replace them
with "youngster" next year. It is unfair to both: "test" oldies this summer and
if they fail, they will be replaced....and the "youngster" should be only
tested in friendliest/qualifiers. This strategy don´t give anyone big
motivation. And without motivation and enthusiasm your team can not
be successful.
I don´t think that youngser have no chance to improve next year.
I will risk if I were a coach.
Look at german strategy. We have let to play our B-team against Argentina
in Confederation Cup, we made mix of young and old players. And especially
young players showed the biggest talent.
Maybe I´m young too and I talk to from my experience.
But I think if my coach or my boss would not give me a chance and
just "test" me, I would be not extra motivated.
Think about it.
I prefer mix of young and old
your bltleo

mschofield · Jun 24, 2005

voros said:

I think what Big Soccer fails to understand is that Bruce Arena is the greatest soccer manager that ever lived. He's completely redefined the job to the point where all managers throughout the world will be held to his standard of excellence.

As we've all seen, his choices are always 100% correct. He never stays with players too long. His tactical acumen is without peer. Total football is simple kick and chase compared to Arena's brilliant tactical maneuverings. His player management skills are in a class by themselves. His ability to motivate players is unrivaled in the annals of sport. If Knute Rockne had known about Arena, his "win one for the Gipper" speech would have been modified to "I got nothing." As a result of his literally flawless performances, we win every single game we try and win.

Therefore any decison Arena makes is, by definition, the correct one, because he is such a class of footballing genius that whether a decision is right or wrong depends entirely on whether Bruce Arena would have done the same thing.

Us Big Soccer peasants are not worthy to lick his high and mighty boots, and if Bruce asks to spend a night with our girlfriends or wives, we should consider it an honor and a privilege to let him do so. Frankly, those who dare dare to question but one decision he makes should be immediately red carded and their transgressions held up for ridicule in a sticky thread so that all can see the consequences of questioning the immaculateness of our soccer savior.
Click to expand...

Be honest, you call BA sugar in your text messages, don't you?
Still, I'm trying to come up with a better punishment, but red-carded and held up for ridicule in a sticky thread is pretty good.
I do think Arena points out a fundamental weakness in US soccer, in that he seems a much better manager than others available (US products). The next class would be bradley and gansler, I guess, probably a couple others, but they look like a step down in quality. Still, a lot of nations go outside to find managers. I guess we'll see if we miss him by sept 06, in any case.

Toolhead · Jun 24, 2005

Maximum Optimal said:

the bobby convey rule would be an inverted richie williams rule with a half twist
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Ok, so instead of being a ankle biting midget of death, Convey's a lap dog that licks Bruce's balls? Or maybe, he's a horny shepard that dry humps the nearest coach's daughter's leg?

bltleo · Jun 24, 2005

Toolhead said:

Ok, so instead of being a ankle biting midget of death, Convey's a lap dog that licks Bruce's balls? Or maybe, he's a horny shepard that dry humps the nearest coach's daughter's leg?
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sorry this is too high level of english...could you tell it a bit easier way
for me..thank you
bltleo from germany

scaryice · Jun 24, 2005

move San Jose

bltleo · Jun 24, 2005

Maximum Optimal said:

the bobby convey rule would be an inverted richie williams rule with a half twist
Click to expand...

Maximum Optimal..help!..what is "richie williams rule"....and what is "bobby
convey rule"...I don´t understand this "hidden" english here...
please could you explain it more clear for stupid german girl..
thank you... which rules do you mean?

afgrijselijkheid · Jun 24, 2005

bltleo said:

Maximum Optimal..help!..what is "richie williams rule"....and what is "bobby
convey rule"...I don´t understand this "hidden" english here...
please could you explain it more clear for stupid german girl..
thank you... which rules do you mean?
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they are just making jokes about two players, richie williams (often known as ABMOD-ankle biting midget of death) and bobby convey

voros · Jun 24, 2005

bltleo said:

Maximum Optimal..help!..what is "richie williams rule"....and what is "bobby
convey rule"...I don´t understand this "hidden" english here...
please could you explain it more clear for stupid german girl..
thank you... which rules do you mean?
Click to expand...

Richie Williams:

Very short, in fact the picture is actual size.

Renowned for getting National Team callups that only our National Team coach could understand the purpose of. No skill, no speed, no size. But was a little maniac running around being a pain in the ass to the other 21 players on the field and the match ref too.

Dubbed ABMOD, which stands for the "Ankle Biting Midget of Death." No longer in MLS or the National Team picture, but still playing in a lower league.

Bobby Convey:

A few inches taller than the ABMOD, Convey currently rides the bench for Reading in the English 2nd division. However, he continues to get National Team callups which have led some posters on Big Soccer to believe he's the new Richie Williams, a guy who gets called up for reasons only the coach knows. I think that's unfair as Convey does have some talent even if he only shows it every now and then. All tournament selection at the 2003 WYC, has done not much of anything since.

bltleo · Jun 24, 2005

voros said:

Richie Williams:

Very short, in fact the picture is actual size.

Renowned for getting National Team callups that only our National Team coach could understand the purpose of. No skill, no speed, no size. But was a little maniac running around being a pain in the ass to the other 21 players on the field and the match ref too.

Dubbed ABMOD, which stands for the "Ankle Biting Midget of Death." No longer in MLS or the National Team picture, but still playing in a lower league.

Bobby Convey:

A few inches taller than the ABMOD, Convey currently rides the bench for Reading in the English 2nd division. However, he continues to get National Team callups which have led some posters on Big Soccer to believe he's the new Richie Williams, a guy who gets called up for reasons only the coach knows. I think that's unfair as Convey does have some talent even if he only shows it every now and then. All tournament selection at the 2003 WYC, has done not much of anything since.
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wow. thank you....great help
hm..interesting....very good explained..even stupid german girl like me
understand it now

Martin Fischer · Jun 24, 2005

IMHO, Ursula is way too nice about responding to this post. But I am in the mood ....

lurking said:

Ursula, that was my guess is about 1,000 words that boils down to Arena is always right because Arena is always right. Your whole argument is hinged on the fact that noone can refute it because to do so would actually require players not on Arena's christmas card list to get shots.
Click to expand...

No, Urusla says a lot mroe than that. Of course you can refute it, though the fact that you don't see as many games as Arena and don't see players in camp all of the time, gives you a handicap. You ought to acknowledge that Arena is in a better position to make judgments than you are, as it is just the way it is. Doesn't mean he is always correct, just that you ought to consider the possibility that he has seen something you haven't.

lurking said:

So what if Agoos, Llamosa, Williams and Pope did well for a few games... how did that group fare in 2002?
Click to expand...

I thought Pope was a valuable member of our 2002 team. Williams was not good enough for the World Cup squad, but contrary to the popular opinion here, he did play decently for the Nats and contributed in other forums. The others contributed to our qualification as well.

lurking said:

And its easy to say that a player cant hack it at the international level if never given a shot. Twellman is one guy, but Kreis was never given much of a shot with the US team....
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The point is that Twellman and Kreis have been given numerous shots -- the real shot is in camp, not in games. Once you get time in games, you need to show something immediately, even if it is in short substitute appearances with less than the full team. See Johnson, Eddie, on how this should be done.

lurking said:

And the whole camp thing, yeah, thats nice that he has a nice arbitrary means of eliminating players he doesnt like that has no real way of being scrutinized. We couldnt dare criticize his decisions because hes made them.
Click to expand...

Well, heck, let's forget about winning games as it is clearly more important to keep Big Soccer posters a forum so they can decide who should play on the team. Transparency is not the goal here, and certainly not so amateurs like us can decide if the coach is doing a good job. Arena should not waste time on guys that he doesn't think can cut it just to keep Big Soccer posters feeling like the process is fair. It ain't a democracy. Really, can't even fathom how anyone would emphasize our ability to scrutinize over results.

lurking said:

And finally, yeah, you can look at guys like Heydude and Armas and go, "well those other guys arent really better" except Heydude and Armas have NO upside at this point. They wont get better. Even if Burciaga or Dunivant arent better now, doesnt mean that wont be the case 6 months from now.
Click to expand...

Arena has seen Burciaga and Dunivant play and he obviously doesn't think they can cut it. That's his job (and I personally think Burciaga should be in camp over Vanney). The callups of Hejduk and Armas are not about figuring out their upsides. They are about seeing if they can continue to contribute on this level despite their age -- to avoid another case of Agooization at the Cup -- and building cohesion among guys who have a significant chance of contributing in 2006.

For me, Hejduk is still sadly the best left back at the international level and Armas to my eye looks like he could challenge Zavagin for the pure destroyer off the bench/backup to Mastro role (do you know of a better option?)

bltleo · Jun 24, 2005

bluedaddy19 said:

they are just making jokes about two players, richie williams (often known as ABMOD-ankle biting midget of death) and bobby convey
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bobby convey as second richie williams? something lime second ABMOD?.
why...bobby is cool player...and good looking too
is he so fresh as richie?....or is he coach darling too?
i just want to understand what Maximum Optimal meant with his joke here.

appoo · Jun 24, 2005

Well done Ursula.

Of course Arena makes mistakes, he's admitted as much before, and its obvious he's made mistakes he didn't admit to (like @ Mexico, or @ Costa Rica)

But its also just as obvious that he knows more about MLS and its players than any single poster here. And he gives almost every player who plays well a chance. those he doesn't are probably players he feels are simply not good enough. Conrad, Zevagnin are just two examples of MLS players who have recieved looks from Arena that haven't had anything to do with US Soccer.