Review: State of the Forum Poll - Red Bull Forum

Discussion in 'New York Red Bulls' started by Thomas A Fina, Nov 5, 2009.

  1. viper

    viper New Member

    Jun 7, 2000
    Paramus, NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What I'm suggesting is that the whole branding discussion has been beaten to death and it might be best that a sub forum should be created for that (where the usual suspects can beat it further to death). That's not up to me do decide, however. I'll leave that up to the mods.

    Are you saying that those of us who don't give an F about branding = "irrational defenders of Red Bull"?

    That's funny! I've been questioning the "real supporter" status of those who come here just to constantly bitch about branding and how much this team is a disgrace because of it. Perspective, eh.

    Thank you!

    I, for one, curse them every day for their insane hirings, firings, crap players in, good players out, etc... But hope springs eternal. There's always next season :)
     
  2. phillips10

    phillips10 New Member

    Oct 15, 2001
    Cranford
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    agreed, at this point that stuff (complete with dead horse) should go into the off-topic category here.
     
  3. sccrhound

    sccrhound Member

    Oct 8, 2002
    CT
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe the dead horse threads need to be stickied so people don't start them again and again.

    Also, I read too many personal attacks in the last week. I am of the mind that less is more and I hate the mentality of many of the other team's boards where intellegent discussions are welcome.

    When I talk about personal attacks that includes the other team's supporters. Don't tell someone to go FO just because they posted here.

    Also, maybe a little more nudging when a trainwreck is starting to ask people to get back on track.
     
  4. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is that I've seen, time and again, you and other posters dismiss legitimate criticism of Red Bull as being nothing more than "the whole branding discussion" being beaten to death by the usual suspects. Maybe it sounds like that to you because you're not listening.

    Yes, it's funny, isn't it. Perspective indeed. You might want to get some.

    So what you're saying is that the only difference between you and, say, Onionsack is that he looks at the situation and attributes those curse-worthy choices to a larger problem. You, on the other hand, don't see it as part of a pattern. He believes the team's worst moves are symptoms of an underlying issue which is holding the franchise back from being all that we would want it to be. You think they are just some bad decisions, and can't necessarily be used to predict what the future will hold. You also think that his conclusions amount to nothing more than hating "the branding."

    I've seen it over and over in these threads. Just look at the Bruce Arena thread. Onionsack presented the opinion that firing Arena was one of the most glaring and painful examples of the kind of disastrous decision-making that happens when the ownership is not really interested in nor knowledgeable about soccer. Every time he makes that or a similar point, a few specific people respond with, more or less: "You hate the Red Bull corporation," or "You don't want to cheer for a corporate brand," or "You need to get over the rebranding." IOW, they are either not paying attention to, or not understanding what the man is saying.

    So when I hear you talk about "the whole branding discussion" I don't really know what you mean. It sounds like you mean you don't want to hear the perspective that the underlying motives of the Red Bull ownership may be at odds with what is really best for the franchise, for soccer in New York, for soccer in America, for the fans, etc. etc. etc.

    I mean, if you're talking about arguments over whether the logo should be changed, that's one thing. But I don't think that's what you're talking about at all.
     
  5. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leeds United FC
    I don't post here enough to really get a vote, but why not do what we do in other forums where we have dead horse topics - USA Men & Bob Bradley, YA and Adu, USA & Adu, MLS & Adu, etc. - and make a sticky thread for discussing/debating the branding and ask that both sides of the equation leave the discussion of branding for that thread, and the determination of whether the discussion is about branding to the mods.
     
  6. Blue Note

    Blue Note New Member

    Nov 17, 2003
    Pawling, New York
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't know if you're talking about me, but since Onionsack seemed to take issue with me more than anyone else in that thread I'll respond. My contention was simply that Arena's record at Red Bull may look good in comparison to Osorio but that there were plenty of problems as well and the quality of the soccer was not great. I am not at all certain, as Sack seems to be, that we were on the pathway to glory with Bruce and I think in retrospect he probably took the job at a time when he was a bit burned out.

    Now I'm happy to have someone disagree with me, but I know for a fact that there are other fans who agree with me.

    FWIW I just read back through my posts in that thread and can't find any examples of the kinds of responses you are talking about. I tried to keep my posts focused on the issue at hand.
     
  7. Homebrew4U

    Homebrew4U New Member

    Jul 25, 2009
    Eastchester, NY
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I understand your example, and certainly this does happen. Perhaps even nearly as often as Onionsack sends the topic onto the subject of branding. In fact, in your example, the entire discussion was about Arena until GIO17 basically said, "Onionsack, I agree with your opinion, but what's with your 'I'm smarter than you' arrogance?" At this point, it was Onionsack that brought the subject of branding up as the source of his frustration, and the justification for belittling others.

    But yes, what you say happens in both directions.
     
  8. sccrhound

    sccrhound Member

    Oct 8, 2002
    CT
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I guess I was not too far off.
     
  9. viper

    viper New Member

    Jun 7, 2000
    Paramus, NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Legitimate criticism I'm not against. Please don't insult the little intelligence I have by suggesting I can't differentiate between something that turns into another "branding discussion" and legitimate criticism. Forget me. There's alot of people here who can tell the difference as well.

    Oooh... Yeah, hugs and kisses to you too.

    His conclusions? You mean his predictions on how the future will just be more failure. Well, that could be more fodder for the proposed Beating a Dead Horse forum.

    But that's his opinion and he expounds it over and over again. Management might not be knowledgeable on the workings of MLS but they'll get it. Red Bull Salzburg has been champion and all that management needs is to learn to work within the confines of MLS. Oh, I forgot they'll never be able to do it here because management doesn't really care if RBNY wins, as they just want to sell more energy drinks.:rolleyes:

    I can make a case (and I have) for the Arena hiring as being one of the most disastrous move ever made by this team (destroyed our backline, saddled us with Reyna), then I can make a case for Arena being fired as another disaster move (he should have been given time to right the ship). I can also make the case that hiring Osorio was a bigger disaster move than hiring or firing Arena. But whatever.

    A case of him making his bed and now having to lie in it, dontcha think? As Homebrew pointed out:

    Thanks Homebrew!

    We've heard that perspective before. It's 3 years running now. Once again, beating a dead horse.

    Correct! You're good.

    Please, make it happen!
     
  10. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sometimes legitimate criticism is going to involve some discussion of RB's purposes and motivations. Sometimes that's going to directly or tangentially involve the question of their soda brand and its promotion.

    It's not an unfounded prediction. There is ample evidence to support it. It may be pessimistic, and you may not agree with it, but it is a conclusion that many rational people have come to after hoping for the best and giving Red Bull the benefit of the doubt. So it's not your or anyone's place to say that one point-of-view constitutes beating a dead horse while other points-of-view constitute legitimate analysis. Nope. That's just you saying, "I'm right, you're wrong, and I don't want to deal with the disagreement anymore." If you believe what you believe, than defend it. If you're tired of defending it, then -- OMG here's an idea! -- ignore the people who disagree and don't get into it with them. Nobody can "hijack" a thread if everybody else just ignores him.

    What makes you think that management will get it? On what evidence do you base the prediction that they will learn to work successfully within MLS? It's great that you're optimistic and I certainly hope you're right, but you can't pretend that your rosy visions of the future are somehow more founded than Onionsack's drearier ones.

    Come to the table with something other than hopes and wishes and positive thinking. Come with analysis of the realities on the ground which actually counters the pessimistic view. Or don't come at all. Like I said, you could just ignore the people you feel are hammering on about the same topics over and over again. No thread can be hijacked by one person. It's not humanly possible.

    This isn't meant personally, but I couldn't care less what you think about Arena's firing. That has nothing to do with anything.

    Sounds to me like you just don't like Onionsack's posting style and his attitude. That's between you and him and has nothing to do with this forum nor what topics should be made taboo because you're personally tired of hearing about them.
     
  11. viper

    viper New Member

    Jun 7, 2000
    Paramus, NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I believe you're wrong here. It might be a mod's place to say what constitutes beating a dead horse, if, in fact, a dead horse forum is created. In fact, a Super Duper Mod just suggested it's creation.

    I think you have me confused with Onionsack. He has stated in the past "I'm right and your opinion doesn't matter because I know I'm right", or "This would only be an argument if you had a valid view point, which you don't". Of cours, I'm paraphrasing, but it's close enough.

    And I have - to death - for several years now.

    OMG??? ha, ha! Well, that doesn't really work if everybody else doesn't ingnore him. You'll just get lots of others quoting him and you'll see it anyway. Nah, I still vote for the Beating a Dead Horse forum idea.

    There's only one way to go for us, and that's up.;) Of course, that entails having a little faith that Red Bull believes a winner is always better than a loser. If you don't, that's you're problem and you can always bring up why you don't think Red Bull management will get it in the Beating a Dead Horse forum.

    I've discussed my reasoning as to why I believe they will make it work within MLS many times before. Please do a search for my posts (or not).

    Well, thank you for that!

    Yeah, I guess my plane could have crashed while I was en route to France a couple of weeks back. Even so, I chose to go for the ride, even if possibility of disaster was there.:rolleyes:

    And I have, many times in these last three years.

    Ok, just for you then.

    I beg to differ. It's happened here already.

    Noted!

    Hence, my "but whatever" at the end of that paragraph.

    You mean somebody actually likes "I'm right, you're wrong and your opinion doesn't matter because I know I'm right"?

    I don't know about that. There are others here who might not appreciate his posting style.

    I don't believe it's just me, hence the several members who agreed with the Beating a Dead Horse forum suggestion. But, anyway, that's up to the Powers That Be, and if it doesn't happen, then it doesn't happen. I do appreciate the existence of this forum. It's nowhere near what the other one is in douchehattery. ha, ha!
     
  12. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leeds United FC
    I disagree with you there - being dismissive/abusive/etc. towards opposing viewpoints has a lot do with the quality of this forum.

    As someone who hasn't been reading regularly, you just come across as Hatfield to his McCoy. Don't complain about disdain for other points of view if you are no better.
     
  13. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's fair. But that's another issue not intrinsically related to the topics people post about, how often they like to post about them, or what point-of-view they insist on sticking to. Abusive posts are against the TOS and moderators should act to curb that sort of thing as much as possible. Being dismissive of opposing viewpoints, OTOH, is just how some people are. It sucks, but it happens all over the intertubes and it's one of the hazards of partaking in message board discussions. IMO. But there is a point where it becomes unconstructive, flaming, trolling, etc. and that is already not supposed to be allowed. Personally, I would rather just see people get thicker skins, but I do understand that everyone has a different level of patience and tolerance.

    This. This is exactly what I'm trying to say.
     
  14. jevanvoo

    jevanvoo Member

    Nov 27, 2006
    Manhattan
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ugh, this thread is why I try not to leave rivalries
     
  15. bukie2k

    bukie2k Member

    Mar 28, 2002
    New Jersey
    Just curious, what would be your definition of supporter?

    The 3 guys moderating this forum all easily qualify as supporters. Same applies for any of the regular posters here. Just becuase some choose to call a spade a spade instead of taking the blind eye to the telescope approach doesn't make them any less a suppoter than anyone else.
     
  16. bukie2k

    bukie2k Member

    Mar 28, 2002
    New Jersey
    If you have been following this team's forum for any length of time you would have figured out that this stuff happens every so often here. The only result is the positivity camp gets smaller each time. And it's more acute this time around because of the dubious nature of the ownership's objectives.
     
  17. RafaLarios

    RafaLarios Member+

    Oct 2, 2009
    Medellín
    Club:
    Atletico Nacional
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    I don't know, I'm allways hearing about how "doubious", "sinister", "shadowly" are the actions from Red Bull.

    Well let me tell you this, red bull sells energetic drinks, thats what they do and they have loads of cash doing it. Well they decided that sports give them publicity, so they buy teams in a lot of sports so their brand could be related in every area.

    I'm no marketing guru, but you try always to put your logo on things that will help you sell more things than before. I'm sure that a crappy team on NY doesn't belong in that category.

    Red Bull has failed more on ineptitude, mediocrity and just plain stupidity than on dubious objectives.
     
  18. bukie2k

    bukie2k Member

    Mar 28, 2002
    New Jersey
    Go back and read all the sunshine and lollipops nonsense the ownership was spouting at the time of the takeover and see how much they have achieved since. That is what I was refering to, not the team and fanbase being a de facto advertising division. That was a given right from the get go.
     
  19. RafaLarios

    RafaLarios Member+

    Oct 2, 2009
    Medellín
    Club:
    Atletico Nacional
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Sometimes you don't get what you plan for. And i don't think that spelling doom after a takeover is the best course of action either.
     
  20. viper

    viper New Member

    Jun 7, 2000
    Paramus, NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Then, please - hang around here more often. I think you'll feel otherwise if you do.

    I highly disagree with you there. I've never had a holier than thou, I'm smarter than you attitude. I'm just an simple fan of Red Bull NY, nothing more and nothing less. And who's complaining about disdain for other points of view? I'd just rather that every other thread not turn into the same branding "discussion" that most of us are sick of discussing. A separate forum for that might be nice, that's all. Thanks!
     
  21. Homebrew4U

    Homebrew4U New Member

    Jul 25, 2009
    Eastchester, NY
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I might be wrong about this, and don't have the ambition to go back and re-read everything written on the "beating a dead horse" subject, but I don't think anyone has advocated that only one point of view belongs in the "dead horse" thread/forum. I think that it's everyone's discussion of this issue--mine, yours, viper's, O-sack's--the whole back-and-forth is the dead horse. The dead-horse forum is a place for the mod to stick conversations which, in the mod's view, have become so tired and repetitive that they take away from the quality of the board, and diminish the experience for the other users. It also allows those of us wrapped up in the discussion to continue to argue, without being closed, shutdown, or censored. At least that's always been my take on it.

    And I've only seen one person say, "I'm right, you're wrong, and I don't want to deal with the disagreement anymore," and that's Onionsack, who has literally told people that his opinion is correct, others are simply ignorant, and he has grown tired of having to explain the flaws in other posters' views.

    Seriously, viper. Everyone knows that fandom has nothing to do with hopes and positive thinking; it's just cold, hard analysis. A fan can't ever say, "Wait 'til next year!" or justify their claims with irrational exuberance (but if you try, be prepared to be told your head is in the sand). How dare you simply feel that things are going to get better without first presenting a well-reasoned and clearly-outlined analysis defending your position?! Fandom is never an act of faith. Fandom is never joyful, irrational, or hopeful. It is never fun. It is as grey and functional as an actuary's cubicle.
     
  22. viper

    viper New Member

    Jun 7, 2000
    Paramus, NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ha, ha! Hey, thanks for setting me straight Homebrew!
     
  23. Matrim55

    Matrim55 Member+

    Aug 14, 2000
    Berkeley
    Club:
    Connecticut
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And what is the cause of that stupidity? Could it be having non-soccer guys in crucial decision making roles?

    For example, we've absolutely embarrassed ourselves in the US Open Cup the last couple of years. That bums me out because we've never won any hardware, and the USOC is as good a place to start as any.

    Yet at the preseason meet-up with Erik Stover last year he came right out and said "I don't have a lot of respect for that competition."

    It's the second oldest cup competition in the world. It's a path to international qualification. Hundreds of supporters traveled to the games in Baltimore and DC to see us lose to a 3rd division team one year then roll over and die against our biggest rival the next.

    Yet our GM doesn't have a lot of respect for that competition.

    Would a soccer guy ever have said that?

    That's a pretty smarmy, holier than thou attitude to take.
     
  24. Homebrew4U

    Homebrew4U New Member

    Jul 25, 2009
    Eastchester, NY
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So, do you agree that appointing Biersdorfer, a soccer guy, to take control of all things soccer, is a step, however big or small, in the right direction?



    The guy's allowed to say he actually thinks of himself as a pretty decent guy when he's accused of arrogance on the scale of Onionsack. Didn't seem anything like the superiority that Onionsack has clearly stated about himself time and time again.
     
  25. Matrim55

    Matrim55 Member+

    Aug 14, 2000
    Berkeley
    Club:
    Connecticut
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, it's just another step on the path of failure. There's literally zero precedent for success in MLS where guys with Euro management pedigrees are concerned. Either in the front office, or on the field.

    Personally I think Beiersdorfers presence means we go right back down the same old road - Queiroz, Parreira, Bora - that we traveled a decade ago. Big name foreign coach with an up-and-down career, a limited understanding of how MLS works and even less of the US talent pool... heard that one before.

    Amirite?

    [​IMG]

    Not for nothing, but that's exactly the definition of holier than thou.
     

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