The argument is internationaly experienced, anyway, someone else used the example of Holland so I thought I'd point out that the same man can back up the other side of the argument too. There are plenty of other examples, Rooney being one I mentioned too. There's also a difference between Butler and Miller, Butler hadn't scored twice in the champions league, Miller is doing it at the very heighest level, and I'm not arguing he should start, just he should be in the squad ahead of Mark Kinsella. Well, firstly, the reason O'Neil didn't even have Healy on the bench is because he refused to sign a new contract and made his desire to leave quite clear. Before his loan spell at Coventry and before this, O'Neil had used him a fair bit, even in old firm games. It was never a question of not being rated. Secondly, where these conflicting reports could possibley come from is beyond me. The fact is, he's started three matches in central mid field for them, he's been excellent in all three. Ask any Sunderland fan, read any match report of the matches, and I can vouch for it having seing him myself against Reading on Sky. People not knowing the facts of his situation at Sunderland, which I've mentioned before, jumped the gun at seing him not in the side instantly and that's about the only reason I can see you having read negative things about his time at Sunderland so far.
I wouldn't believe everything you read, Pat, I know what you're getting at and I wouldn't believe that for a second.
Don't you think that if I had read it I would have said it. I can't say what I heard but if you read something then you've nothing to worry about so go tell us what it is that you read about him.
I dunno, but we havent seen anything of Kinsella lately. I would prefer someone who is playing first team football week in, week out. Tis a pity that, that f-ker Keano isnt around. Then we wouldnt have to wonder who to play in the middle of the park.
aye, thats me, I pop in for a nosey every now and again!!! was HK injured in training, I believe he played very well in 65minutes he had last weekend.
From the FC Basel website (used a translation site, so apologies for the poor english) Looks like hes out for there game tomorrow, will join up with the Swiss squad but is unknown whether he'll be fit enough to play, for Irelands sake,they'd be a weaker opposition without him!! National player Hakan Yakin of the FC Basel 1893 has itself on 2 October 2003 in the context of his employment in the super League play with Neuchâtel Xamax in the 45. Minute with a duel without being to blame for the opponent a cap torn-tape condition at the left knoechel tightened. The medical examinations resulted in this in the case of Dr. Heinz Buehlmann. The injury was treated conservatively, i.e. without operation. The duration of the healing process cannot be judged at present valid. For the championship play of the FC Basel of the Sunday, which 5 October 2003, against which FC Wil will fail Hakan Yakin with security. Whether it can be used against it on 11 October 2003 in the EM Qualifikationsspiel against Ireland in Basel or not, is openly. The player becomes on the Tuesday, which 7 October 2003, with the zusammenzug of the national team to engage. On the following preparation days it becomes then points whether an employment is applicable or not.
I actually heard it in the hardly reliable source of a bar, as I said I dont believe it myself but I think most people here have heard it but I'll not type it up myself I saw someone get in trouble on another messageboard for it.
International experience is all well and good, but first of all you'd like any sort of experience. That's the point I was making re Miller and Holland - Holland had been there, done that, swapped the shirt. International football was just another step up. Rooney got called into the England squad as much because of the hype as anything, and while he's earned the right to stay there now, he's hardly typical. Butler was also playing in the Premiership every week (running Arsenal ragged at Highbury, as I recall), as opposed to playing Hearts. And while Miller has scored twice in the Champion's League, let's not go overboard about a goal against FC Kaunas in the qualifiers and a sum total of just over half a game in the CL proper. I'm disappointed he's not in the squad, but at the end of the day if we'd needed a goal late in the game, Kerr would put on Steven Reid, or whichever of the strikers doesn't start - not Miller for his first appearance charged with turning around the game. If we don't need a goal late on...well, he's not going to start taking risks then either. Healy was being left out of squads long before he refused to sign a new contract. I don't know how you think O'Neill used him a fair bit - I don't ever remember his appearances getting into double figures in a season. About the conflicting reports - no, I've heard some less than complimentary reviews since he's been installed in the team. As I said before, I'm trying to keep aloof from all of them until I see him for myself.
Healy is a youngster, slowly starts breaking into the Celtic team, makes alot of sub appearences including one against Rangers. Goes on loan to Coventry, does brilliantly, becomes an Irish international and stays there for the season. During the summer, refuses to sign a new contract and makes it clear he wants to leave, and despite now being a mainstay in the Irish squad, is suddenly not even appearing on the Celtic bench. His reputation or ability clearly didn't go downhill since his appearences with Coventry, so why did he suddenly not start appearing on the bench when he was before? Because O'Neil knew he was on the way out, and he was right, I wouldn't have picked him either. As for his preformances with Sunderland, ask the fans yourself. http://www.readytogo.net/smb/viewtopic.php?t=61463 And he's been getting rave reviews by the fans in every one of his games. As for Holland, as I've said before, I used him as an example as someone else did. Rooney got in the England squad as he was good enough and proved it against Turkey, there was no experience worrys there. As for Miller, as I've said, I wouldn't start him but he should be in as cover ahead of Kinsella. As for not capping him against Turkey, well, that was plain lunacy.
If Healy didn't train a day all summer then one must ask "Why not?" As an out of contract player, one would expect him to be maintaining a high level of sharpness/fitness so that he could impress any potential new employers when given the chance. With regards to Healy at Celtic, he did NOT play regularly before he decided to leave. I do not keep it touch with the goings on at Celtic Park but my flat-mate is a rabid, obsessed Celts supporter. He says that Healy rarely made the bench unless it was a meaningless game in the Scottish League Cup or whatever. He never came close to starting in an important competitive game and it was widely known that O'Neill did not rate him particularly highly. I have not seen Healy this season aside from the Ireland game but his performance in that game was enough to give me serious concerns about his immediate ability to play for Ireland. He was totally out of the game to an extent that cannot solely be attributed to 'a lack of sharpness'. His positioning on the field was sometimes downright atrocious. I will be the first to be delighted if he plays a stormer against the Swiss but I cannot see it and would prefer to go for the experience of Kinsella/Holland and rely on the creativity of Keane and Duff. BTW - please tell us what these rumours about Healy are!!! Sounds like a really juicy bit of gossip! Was he getting it on with O'Neill's Missus or what?!?
I never said he was regularly appearing for Celtic, I said he was making a few sub appearences in a few important matches, one I saw live was an old firm one, like any up coming youngster would do (See Liam Miller). He goes on loan to Coventry and becomes an Ireland international and eventually a starter for us, goes back to Celtic, says he wants to leave and suddenly doesn't even make the bench ever again. It's not like Celtic have millions of options in mid field (They have to start that useless Lennon for a start) it's just Healy was leaving on a free so he was never going to start. As for his internationals, he proved what he could do with all, what, 10? caps he had pre summer, to suddenly have doubts about him after a few poor preformances when he clearly wasn't fit afterwards seems completley daft and fickle to me, espically when suggesting someone like Kinsella starts, who can't make the Villa bench soley because he's not good enough and his preformances with Ireland have been nothing but inept since the world cup. If Holland and Kinsella starts, we've proven this qualifying tournament, we basically have no mid field. They just go missing, it happend every match they've started together this campaign. Healy hasn't become crap despite what some people seem to be making out and is our best option in there, beside Holland for now and Delap when he gets back into contention.
But has Healy ever played well when it has really counted? Unfortunately the only gauge we have for this is the Russia game. I am firmly of the belief that international friendlies are relatively pointless when determining if a player can cut it in the big games - and the one forthcoming is the biggest of the lot. Whilst Kinsella has not featured regularly (to clarify, he has played as a substitute on several occasions this year) for Villa, I am still much more prepared to bank on his experience, know-how and work-rate than that of Healy, who as you know yourself, has started no more than 20/30 club games in his entire career! If we are going to talk about 'inept since the world cup' you can label quite a lot of Irish players with that one. Finnan, Carr, Harte, Holland, Reid, Kilbane and Breen to name a few. The one game where Kinsella looked absolutely lost was the away match in Russia but most of the team looked lost on that day. I do not argue that Kinsella's best days are behind him, but I still believe we have to opt for him over Healy. If Holland had not played as well as he did against Russia at home, we probably would have lost as Healy was an on-looker for the entire match as Mostovoi charged through the middle time after time. And, if Healy was as unfit as you suggest against Russia, serious questions must be asked about Brian Kerr's ability to judge the fitness of his own players. I have always been 'hopeful' about Healy's progress for Ireland but for such an important game I would rather be banking on something more solid than the hope that he might play well.
Before Russia he played two crucial qualifyers, Switzerland and Georgia, and in my opinion was our best mid fielder on both days. Contrast that to Kinsella who played against Russia and Switzerland and was absolutley awful in both. We know Kinsella can't cut it in my view, Healy is debatable, in my view he can but you disagree, that's still better then Mark Kinsella. Yes but Healy is starting now he will be fit now. He will be sharp, Kinsella will be unfit. As well as that, his experience means nothing if he can't produce, the fact is he's past it. yes, he has more experience then Healy, but so does John Giles. I doubt Kinsellas ability to play football at even first division level on the evidence of the past year and his Villa career in general backs that up. If Kinsella was transfer listed now, I can't see too many clubs in even the first division buying him. Experience is one thing, but the fact is he proved in all the matches he's played this campaign he's not up to it. Finnan has been inept since the world cup? He's barley played for us and has landed a dream move to Liverpool. Carrs been outstanding in alot of our qualifyers, Harte is, was, and forever will be inept, Holland has been average which is about what he is, Reid has had 2 bad games for us for christ sake! since the world cup he's also landed a move to a premiership club, Kilbane got man of the match against Russia! And secured a move to Everton, while he's not brilliant he's not gotten any worse and Breen has played out of his skin for Sunderland and has been superb, bar two matches, for Ireland. Kinsella has been absolutley undenyable awful for Ireland since the world cup, went to Aston Villa and is considered incredibley lucky to make their bench, if you can't see a difference then there's really no point bothering to argue with you. Healy was poor against Russia, but better then Kinsella was in the away match, and Healy wasn't fit for the Russia match so what does that say about Kinsella? An unfit Healy still preformed better then Kinsella did in the away match, at least when Healys playing poor he shows for the ball and gives the defence an option, unlike Kinsella who hides. Countless times against Russia the defence got the ball and the only person showing for the ball was Robbie Keane as the mid field was nowhere to be seen so Keane had to drop deep to get it off the defence. Healy wasn't fully fit but was still a better option then Kinsella, now that Healys fully fit there shouldn't be a decision to make. But the fact is he hasn't played well for us since the world cup. You're banking on the kind of inept preformances he's put in for the qualifyers so far, where he's been completley off the pace because he hasn't got the legs for international football anymore and been completley bypassed by games while being generally invisible because he can't keep on anymore. We're not talking about someone who we know will play solid but not spectacular, like a Lee Carsley, were talking about someone who will be plain awful like he has been so far. He's not even up to being 'solid' any more. If Delap was fit I doubt he would have made this squad.
Healy Healy will start , and yes he is currently a better option than Kinsella ,unfortunately this is no great compliment , I agree with Cokane and Mustard , Healy is overrated. Celtic,Leeds,Everton,Villa said no.Why? I really hope not but I think he may have found his level in the first division. If Delap can recover from injury and reclaim last seasons form , he will likely partner Holland in the future and Healy will take a role on the bench.
Healy said no to Villa not the other way around. Villa confirmed an interest but Healy wanted to sign for Sunderland as he felt hs owed Mick, which he clearly did. Villa said they wanted him and McCarthy is always going on about how he turned down premiership clubs.
One must also ask the question: How much success would Healy have getting into the Aston Villa team ahead of Gavin McCann, Lee Hendrie and Gareth Barry? Not much more than Kinsella methinks. In the most crucial of positions; central midfield, I will always go for experience in a vital match such as this. As long as Kinsella and Holland do not over stretch themselves and provide an effective barrier in front of our centre halves then we can rely on our creative wingers and forwards to cause the Swiss problems. I have seen absolutely no evidence to suggest that Colin Healy has what it takes to perform this role for Ireland in a fast-paced, vital qualifier. His performances in these situations so far have been poor. Kinsella has done it in the past and as long as he is good enough to come for Villa as a sub I would prefer him to Healy. A competent midfield player like Kinsella does not descend into an inept one within the space of a year (yes, it was just over a year ago that he was rock solid for us in the World Cup). His experience gives him an edge over Healy in that he is much more likely to be 'in the right place at the right time'. Granted, he hasn't performed well for us in his last few games but to say he's finished is just not true. And to say that Kinsella has ever hidden for Ireland is nonsense. Played badly - yes. Hidden - definetly not. If anything he is always one of our most committed players.
That they signed McCann only after Healy said no speaks volumes really, so i'd say 'alot more' to be honest, Barry is playing out of position too. Jesus H Christ. His preformances in these situations so far have been poor? Are you trying to wind me up or what? As I said, he's played three qualifyers, been our best mid fielder in two and poor in one (ONE, one bloody qualifyer, not like the five Kinsella has racked up woeful preformances in) and yet you come out with rubbish like that? I have, however, evidence to suggest Kinsella can't hack it. "His preformances in these fast paced vital qualifyers so far have been" absolutley appaling. He was absolutley woeful against Russia and Switzerland and frankly not much better against the lesser teams in the group. He has experience, yes, but so does John Giles, as I said. Kinsella is past it, experienced yes, useful, no, move on. It's not the Mark Kinsella of a few years ago, he's not upto it. If you think Healy can't keep up with the pace then Kinsella has no chance what so ever. You seem so quick to critice Healy yet ignore the blatant fact Kinsella hasn't played even a half decent game for Ireland since the world cup. Kinsella has done it in the past and so has, that man again, John Giles. It means nothing. He can't do it now. A year is a long time, espically with his injury troubles. The fact is he can't hack it anymore, you see to want to completley blind yourself to this, but if it takes another completley invisible woeful preformance in another crucial match to prove it to you then I hope Brian Kerr doesn't feel the same way. He is finished, you're hypeing him up because he can make the Villa bench the odd time for christ sake! Even ignoreing Healy, Carsley is a better option then him. Limited though he is, he will at least show for the ball and be able to keep up. His preformances over the past year suggest he's finished, for club and country, his age and injuries have caught up with him. Why do you think he'll suddenly preform when he hasn't so far, what evidence is there to possibley suggest he can turn it up a notch? Watch the Russia match again, I have. He's nowhere to be seen at all. Like I said, any time the defence had the ball Keane had to go into mid field because none of the mid fielders were showing for it. Russia were walking through the mid field because nobody was standing up to them and the same goes for Switzerland. Weather it's hiding or becase he can't keep up with the pace doesn't really matter to me, the fact is the end product is he's basically invisible.
http://www.rte.ie/sport/2003/1006/soccer/magnineuro04.html Magnin and Cabanas out, Yakin doubtful. Good news for Ireland. I suspect Magnin might just be the bigger loss than Cabanas, but Yakin is the guy. He is their midfield lynchpin. (He's obviously a lot like Kinsella, or Healy, or Giles. . No I don't want any piece of that one.)
Right only read the last page but just to clear this up from the rumours I heard Healy was caught putting a certain substance up his nose. May explain why he didnt feature much for Celtic.
First point: Healy did not say 'no' to Villa. It is widely known that the three premiership clubs that were reportedly interested in him; Villa, Leeds and Everton, all said 'no' to him. It was looking very bad for Healy until McCarthy invited him to Sunderland as he was clubless and back home in Ireland twiddling his thumbs. With regard to Healy's performances in our other international games, where you watching the same games as me?!? Healy was no better than woefully average in two and downright poor against Russia. The only time I have ever, EVER, seen Colin Healy play well, was in two meaningless international friendlies. The same cannot be said of Kinsella. Healy proved, with his performance against Russia, that he is simply not up to the task of excelling in international football - yet. On the other hand, with Kinsella, just over a year ago he was regarded as one of our most consistant players and frequently performed admirably against top European and World opposition. The comparison with Giles doesn't warrant further comment. Kinsella makes the bench at a decent Premiership side - I cannot see how this suddenly means that he 'can't hack it'. He has played top-class football this season and if he really was 'past it' you can be quite sure that O'Leary would have offloaded him or brought in someone from the youth team instead. I am not trying to say that Kinsella is going to be any use to us in the long term, but for a game like this one, I firmly beleive that we should bank on his experience in what will be a very tough game in a highly pressurised environment. He admirably dealt with these occasions in the past, and that is something we just cannot say of Healy. A couple of good friendly international performances and a few first division starts does not look like the CV of a player who I want playing in front of our back four in this vital game. The whole cocaine thing, if true, is another issue entirely...
OK SLASH , Healy declined offers from Celtic , Leeds , Everton and Villa , all teams playing in the top league in their respective countries (and with young and mostly highly regarded managers) to spend the summer jobless , getting no pre-season training/stability,BECAUSE he was waiting for a job offer from Sunderland , a team with a major confidence crisis at the time , newly relegated and selling all its decent players. Yeah interesting theory but something doesn't sound right!
The fact is Aston Villa, amoungst others, declared an interest in Healy during the summer. Healy said no, he wanted to sign for Sunderland to work with McCarthy. McCarthy couldn't sign him until the end of summer because he needed to sell before he could buy. villa, in turn, bought Mccann which ironically enough was enough to get Healy at Sunderland. That's all fact. It's been confirmed by Villa, Healy and McCarthy, so you can stop twisting it like he got rejected by them, because that's nonsense. Lets go over their qualifyers so far. Dismissing all meaningless friendlys. Russia away - He was sunday league standard, that's being kind. Healy wasn't on the pitch. Switzerland at home - Did he or Holland even show up? Healy, on the other hand, started wide right and tried to drive us forward. I remember him going on a dribble and getting a good shot away when Keanes rebound (which he missed anyway) was offside. He was our only one in mid field tackling passing and trying to do something ont he ball. Georgia Away - Kinsella played, Carsley this time on right wing. A limited player like Carsley again completley out shines Kinsella. Kinsella, as ever, is bypassed in the match completley. Our mid field is struggling to cope with the completley average Georgia side, embarassment. Albania away - See above, multiply embarassingly rubbish preformance by the mid field by 100. Albania at home - Just as bad. Our mid field is over run by a below average bunch of nobodies in relative terms. At home. There's no excuse for this at all. Kinsella starts, Healy on the bench. Georgia at home - Our first good preformance of the qualifyers. At last. Completley coincidental obviously is the fact that Healy is playing central mid field and Kinsella is bringing his club form to country (IE, he's sitting on the bench). Healy dominates the mid field, Ireland dominate the match. Ironically enough, one John Giles describes it as "The best preformance by an Irish mid fielder since Roy Keane left the side" or words to that effect. Woefully average? My fecking arse. Russia at home - Healy plays his first poor match in an Ireland shirt, and is still better then Kinsella. Ireland were still winning the mid field battle which tells it's own story. He was poor, but he wasn't fit, and was still better then Kinsella. So does someone who hasn't played a good game for Ireland and when Villa are at full strenght doesn't make their bench deserve to start on the basis of a game where Healy still preformed better then he's done so far? By the way, if Healy was better than woefully average in two and downright poor against Russia, I'd love to hear you describve the form of Mark Kinsella during the same period of time. Humour me on this one, please. 'Just over a year ago'. Do you realise how long ago that is in footbal terms? You've having to go back an entire year, over 12 months, for his last good game. Thats your own admissiong. So what does that tell you? Also, Kinsella doesn't make the villa bench, that's the point. At full strenght, he doesn't. If there's injuries or suspensions he does, and you're actually boasting about this? This is something working in his favour? I don't think so. How do you know O'Leary didn't try and offload him? who would buy him? He's played no more 'top class' football this year then any Bohs player who played against Rosenborg, but I wont exactly be calling for Caffrey to solve our mid field problems. But the fact is, yet again, you're going back a long time in the past when talking about Kinsella. "He admirably dealt with these occasions in the past" I hate to keep bringing it up, but so did a certain now RTE pundit. It is, however, something we can say of Healy. You can just blindly deny he was superb against Georgia or Switzerland if you want to humour yourself in this argument, but we both know he was superb, and alot better then Kinsella has played RECENTLY. How does the CV look for a footballer who, if there's injurys, is promoted to his club sides bench? If you can name a recent great preformance from Kinsella (IE, within a period of 12 months, and that's being very kind) for club or country I'd be amazed. Absolutley amazed. What you make of those rumours are up to you. As for CelticBadger, see above. Look for the comments from all three partys involved and you'll see that that's exactly what he did do. He wanted to be loyal to McCarthy, who really made his career by giving him the exposure his Ireland caps brought and in keeping faith with him.
So,without getting into to the whole essay writing thing here, you are saying, that because Healy turned in a single decent, competitive performance against Georgia at home, he should start in our most important game in years over a seasoned-pro/former club captain with oodles of experience of this sort of situation? BTW, I don't particularly remember all of the competitive games above in any particular detail (mainly due to the large quantitues of alcohol consumed at the said occasions), but, reading the match threads from these games on Bigsoccer, it is clear that you are the only contributor who has been consistantly critical of Kinsella's performances. Almost all other contributors suggest that whilst he was not obviously forceful in his play, he was quietly effective in his role in midfield. Hardly the sort of ineptitude that you have been preaching about. Kinsella, while not playing regularly, in my opinion, has all the abilites that we require in order to be influential against the Swiss. If he sits in front of the defence and prevents the talented Swiss midfielders breaking through, that is all he needs to do. I do not buy the idea that Kinsella is now suddenly absolutely useless. I am far more willing to bet on the know-how of a tried and tested player than gamble on the questionable abilites of a very inexperienced player like Colin Healy in this sort of situation. Kerr did this against Russia and we were very lucky that Holland had one of his better games in the Ireland shirt. Mostovoi trampled all over Healy at every possible opportunity and if we are not careful Hakin Yakin will do the same.
Yes, because that was one superb (Decent my arse) preformance more then Kinsella has turned in. You seem to be avoiding answering most of the questions I'm asking anyway and going back to the same point over and over again, you say experience, I say not capable anymore, and I've a years worth of form to back me up. So you don't remember any of the matches too much yourself but are basing your opinions on what you remember the posts the next day on bigsoccer were? It's like banging my head off a brick wall... For a start Yakin is probably out. You keep going back to the experience thing. Experience this and experience that, the fact is, he's past it. Experience or not doesn't change this fact. He can be as experienced as he likes but if he's completley off the pace and basically invisible it means nothing. Kinsellas has offered nothing to us. He's not fast enough to be able to protect the back four and get in tackles, not big enough to be a presence in mid field, he hides from getting on the ball and when he does it he hasn't a creative bone in his body. Oh, but he has bags of experience. He's been man marking Bolton reserve plays all year, you don't get much better then that. By the way, if you want to see Yakin walk all over a mid field, or Mostovi do the same, watch our first two qualifyers. No doubt you'll reply will be "Oh, but he's loads and loads of experience" I'll re paste some of the things I've posted which I'd love to see your reply to, but which you've ignored so far. Basically in fact, my entire last post, which you've completley ignored and gone off on your "bags of experience" point over and over again.