Spain 2008-?: Where do they rank amongst the greats?

Discussion in 'Soccer History' started by KyleP, Jul 11, 2010.

  1. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Don't get me wrong. On that day the result did not reflect the game truely, as Spain were the better side no question asked!

    I just want to highlight the FACT (they barely scored few (3,4) goals in last 5,6 friendlies vs good teams) that they still need to work on creating better chance and finishing it - in order to be among the "great teams" - like many had praised them!
     
  2. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    :p Fire del Bosque right after winning Spain's first ever World Cup because they lost a couple of friendlies? WTF? Funniest thing I've heard all day.

    Can you really blame them for not getting excited to play a friendly mere months after winning the World Cup (most of those poor results you listed occurred in the second-half of 2010)?

    Also if Spain has a weakness it's defending set-pieces, not inability to create chances. They have the best play-makers in the world.
     
  3. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Read well, I was talking / reply to some post rating so HIGHLY of this Spain (among best all times) so I just highlighted their WEAKNESS.

    Other than that, Of course with such a great squad, and Bosque is also a very good coach, SPain could go far in the next Euro12. Neither would I care much of how they play in friendlies ...
     
  4. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    once again, it confirmed what I said , Spain displayed another "breath holding" 2-2 tie game against a lowly Costa Rica ...
     
  5. Charlie512

    Charlie512 Member

    Oct 17, 2010
    Texas
    Club:
    Pachuca CF
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    It did end in South Africa remember?
     
  6. Shakur

    Shakur Member

    Dec 16, 2009
    Spain
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Lets talk about luck:


    Nigel de Jong staying on the field.
     
  7. leszek-antonio

    Mar 16, 2008
    Toronto, Canada
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Poland
    I am a big fan of the current Spain team. However, I would rate them at #5 in history (since 1950). If they win the next Euro (which I believe) they will go up much higher...


    1. Brazil 1970
    2. Hungary 1954
    3. W.Germany 1972-76
    4. Brazil 1958-62
    5. Spain 2008-10
    6. France 1998-00
    7. Holland 1974-78

    I actually used to point system to calculate that.
     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    That was the advantage of an EPL-ref. Such a foul isn't always rewarded with a red card, I'd say it is 5 out of 10 times a straight red.

    On the other hand, if you watch the 'match 64' documentary you can see Puyol + Iniesta saying that they deserved two red cards as well.
     
  9. laudrup_10

    laudrup_10 Member

    Jun 6, 2011
    Not a bad list leszek:)
     
  10. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Just wonder what kinda points system as per your criteria?
     
  11. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Regarding the bolded part.

    Imagine the 1974 final between Germany and Holland had been played on as dry a pitch as the game of Germany vs. Poland. Imagine Germany had won against Holland on such a pitch.

    What would non-Germans say afterwards? I am pretty sure it would be "Holland would have won easily on a normal pitch, blow-out result, chanceless Germans! No doubts, just look at how Holland played in the previous games!".

    Or another example: Imagine Maradona had been injured before the 1982 World Cup and missed it. Argentina bowing out early. What would most Maradona fans say? I am pretty sure it would be "with Maradona that team would have won the 1982 World Cup no doubt. After all it was the 1978 World champions PLUS Maradona - unbeatable. And mind, Maradona in the early 1980s was actually better than in the mid-1980s! Absolute certainty that Maradona would have won the World Cup in '82 if not for that injury!"
     
  12. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    The interesting part of this is that he had just recuperated from an injury, thus was not fully fit. Reference is in the 1982 May and June editions of El Grafico. It is also mentioned in his autobiography.

    He was physically better but not yet the savvy experienced Napoleonic leader of the mid-80s.

    And in regards to the Argentinean side of ’82, they just looked tired prior to their preparations leading up to the competition. Many had thought that they couldn’t win a WC outside of Argentina and the favorites to reach the final in 1982 were Brazil and West Germany - with Zico himself stating prior to the event that Argentina were a one-man team, Maradona being the one man. This reference can be found in Brian Glanville's book of "The Story of the World Cup."
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Imagine Brazil had reached the 1974 final and won it, then many had believed Holland was better than Germany on their own home soil because Holland beat Argentina with 4:0 while Germany lost on their own ground with 2:3 in 1973, in the same Munich stadium with a late conciliation goal by the Germans.

    In contrast, the 1971 encounter versus Poland wasn't even remotely comparable to the 1974 situation of both teams.

    Simararily, if referee Clive Thomas had done his job in euro1976 it had not necessarily meant that Holland had won against Germany in the final, even with the absence of the home advantage in mind.
     
  14. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    In regards to the 1974 final, Beckenbauer some years later would boast that had West Germany played Holland 10 times, that the Germans would without any doubt win 7 out of those 10. He also claimed that Poland was the most difficult opponent for them. This source is in an April 1986 edition of El Grafico.
     
  15. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Remarkably restrained .... I thought you'd unleash hell on me after I had posted. ;)
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Argentina was fourth in the ELO-rating. While not heavy favorites, they were an outsider but Maradona was not fit as you said. However, he had a good game in the group stage and suddenly the pundits believed there were no worries.
     
  17. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Yes, it was that one game (Hungary) that brought some beliefs back that they could defend their title, but never again was he nor Argentina able to recapture that form.
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Beckenbauer has made some contradicting statements about this. He has also said the final was an even encounter and Holland had the better players, at that moment, while Germany had difficulties in surviving the group stage. He said losing the last group-game against East-Germany had as unexpected side-effect an easier second round.

    Cruijff has made some contradicting remarks as well, but the matter of fact is that Cruijff clearly hinted before the tournament, in late 1973, the aim was reaching the second round. The rest was a bonus and not a realistic objective, he thought. Because of the recent amateurism at the FA and he knew it also took Ajax a couple of tries to gain the necessary experience, professionalism and facilities to launch away from the stone age.
    And yes, he also mentioned Germany was the worst of all possible host nations and he saw Brazil, Germany and Italy as favorites. Remember: the interest of the public was at that time at a low point, the amount of Holland fans traveling to Germany slowly rose throughout the tournament.

    His lieutenant Van Hanegem made once the best remark - I paraphrase it now: "If I had the possibility to re-wind the day, we would lose again. But if we had played three times against them [a best of three], we would win on goals."
     
  19. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    That is interesting considering that in that same report he stated that he and the Germans were very confident in beating the Dutch because he considered the group to be spiritually tight and to have gone through the tribulations that made them stronger. In contrast, Holland was not prepared for the adversity of playing with one goal behind and they (the Germans) were.

    He also went on to say that everyone was talking about Holland but he liked Poland more. He felt that they were more revolutionary and that their players occupied every position throughout all 90 minutes. He felt that it was harder to defeat Poland and easier to overcome the Dutch. He also felt that players such as Deyna, Lato and Gadocha were of the highest order and that there was a lot of talk about Cruyff but he was shut down by an exceptional marker in Vogts in the final.

    He felt that they were champs because they were able to overcome the critics, the tensions, and that they had the mindset to correct mistakes in a game. The ability to react and correct their own errors was their greatest virtue.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes, the problems in their team made them stronger in his view, I also read that.

    But their strong confidence in beating Holland is new to me. Various things that I've read, also in German, said they gained this strong confidence during the final. In a domestically famous book the likes of Grabowski and Hoeness are quoted which basically say the same. They weren't afraid for Holland but after they sensed that some of the Holland team were more obsessed with humiliating Germany in front of the world-public, and sensed players like Van Hanegem and Cruijff were not in their best shape, then they knew they would win it. This was before the equalizer.

    The comments about Cruijff are strange because he has also indicated that Cruijff was for him the best European footballer ever. When he was asked about the comparison with himself he said: "You can't compare, he was an attacker, I was an defender."
    (source, use an translation machine)

    What did he precisely mean with 'their own errors'?


    It is I think correct that Poland was a very good opponent. Holland lost against them with 4:1 in 1975 although Holland had quarreling in the squad. It was one of the worst games of Cruijff ever.
    At home they won with 3:0 though, where Cruijff was in top-shape. He had certainly a huge respect for Poland, this time he had traveled to Holland some days before to prepare himself.
     
  21. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    He didn’t specify but just stated those comments.

    I will see if I can scan the document and send it to you over the PM.
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord


    Personally I feel this has often been exaggerated. To start with: that solo-run.
    No German has touched the ball. He picked the ball from his own defense and caused a penalty-kick, in the first minute, in the final of the most important competition, on a stage where Holland has never been before, against the host, in the home stadium of the opposing captain etcetera. Yes, the foul was actually outside the box but referees often did those things in those days.

    Furthermore, Vogts was yellow carded for a foul against Cruijff. And in the second half he was the best Dutch player. Bavarian magazine kicker awarded the highest or second-highest score to Cruijff for his performance in the final I believe.

    His weakest part was between the 20th and 45th minute. He wasn't completely healthy anyway but he failed in that phase to overrule Van Hanegem and stop with the nonsense. After the early lead, Holland had a small debate about what they had to do. Van Hanegem won the debate. Wrong.

    And Cruijff was voted as player of the tournament, in a vote organized by kicker and adidas themselves.
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes, thanks.

    How did you find that in the pile you had?
     
  24. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I have the magazines in order by month and year and I remembered reading this since it was a magazine dedicated to the previous World Cups, and it caught my attention – since my interest in football is mostly geared towards the 70s and 80s – my generation.:)
     
  25. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    And indeed, El Grafico hailed Cruyff as the "new King of football" after the WC.
     

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